Confederate Civil War Monuments

[mighty_thor 115]

I am a moderate democrat. I am fiscally in the center. Socially liberal. Believe that there are times when US military is necessary. I am also a Northerner with no ancestral ties to the confederacy.

 

I am a little torn on whether or not removing these Civil War monuments is a good a thing. I kind of lean towards thinking its a bad idea. I definitely didn't agree with the methods of the neo-nazi type protesters the past week. But I also don't think it is necessary or even smart to take down regional monuments depicting historical figures or events. Its almost like we are trying to erase a part of our history.

 

The vast vast vast majority of Confederate soldiers did not own slaves. These men enlisted to defend their states. Back in those days people were way more loyal to their states. Even Robert E. Lee said he believed in the Union but his loyalty was to Virginia:

One thing that clearly drove him was devotion to his home state. “If Virginia stands by the old Union,” Lee told a friend, “so will I. But if she secedes (though I do not believe in secession as a constitutional right, nor that there is sufficient cause for revolution), then I will follow my native State with my sword, and, if need be, with my life.”
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/making-sense-of-robert-e-lee-85017563/#Vi8dB6GolsMhJS5Z.99

 

I don't have a problem with Confederate soldier monuments. I also think that Robert E. Lee was universally admired on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line as great General and certainly a very historical figure.

In 1907, on the 100th anniversary of Lee’s birth, President Theodore Roosevelt expressed mainstream American sentiment, praising Lee’s “extraordinary skill as a General, his dauntless courage and high leadership,” adding, “He stood that hardest of all strains, the strain of bearing himself well through the gray evening of failure; and therefore out of what seemed failure he helped to build the wonderful and mighty triumph of our national life, in which all his countrymen, north and south, shar
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/making-sense-of-robert-e-lee-85017563/#Vi8dB6GolsMhJS5Z.99

 

They fought on the wrong side of history but I don't have a problem with monuments to the brave combatants. I do have a problem with the Confederate Flag flying over government buildings. I do not think private citizens should be barred from flying a confederate flag on their property. I would hope other private citizens would ostracize anybody or any private business flying the confederate flag on their property but its not the role of government to limit free speech.

 

How far is this whitewashing of history going to go? Washington and Jefferson had slaves. Is Mount Rushmore next?

[supermike80 1,285]

BIG RATS ASS

[surferskin 30]

Good post. And yeah, I agree that once they take down all the confederate statues they will go for the statues "slave owners". You and I know that this wont be the end.

 

The safe space crowd only sees things in black and white (no pun intended). History has way too shades of grey. Lincoln was a "progressive" back in the 1800's but would be considered worse than Donald Sterling in 2017. Robert E. Lee wasn't a traitor. He was loyal to VA. So much ignorance of history. It's just sad.

[posty 2,296]

They should stay up... It is the history of our country...

[IGotWorms 3,302]

I just posted on this in another thread and agree completely with the OP. I think as historical pieces these monuments should be kept. The problem is the white supremacists have turned them into modern-day symbols of hate. I don't know what the solution is but tearing down every last statue isn't a good one imo

[TimmySmith 2,782]

snoflakes must eliminate those things they don't like. Otherwise we'll be come like Hitler's Germany, where he eliminated those things he didn't like.

[supermike80 1,285]

Good post. And yeah, I agree that once they take down all the confederate statues they will go for the statues "slave owners". You and I know that this wont be the end.

 

 

I swear I am not going newbie here and being a d!ck just to be a d!ck but so what? How are you affected? Say tomorrow every statue of Thomas Jefferson is removed. Why would it matter?

You will still learn about him. You might even learn he was a slave owner(which was something I did not learn in elem school back in my day). He isn;t going away, just the statues. Why does it bother you SOOOO much?

 

Explain it. And if you end up saying it will lead to bestiality....Im hunting you down and murdering you. :-) Thats a joke (or is it)

[surferskin 30]

I swear I am not going newbie here and being a d!ck just to be a d!ck but so what? How are you affected? Say tomorrow every statue of Thomas Jefferson is removed. Why would it matter?

You will still learn about him. You might even learn he was a slave owner(which was something I did not learn in elem school back in my day). He isn;t going away, just the statues. Why does it bother you SOOOO much?

 

Explain it. And if you end up saying it will lead to bestiality....Im hunting you down and murdering you. :-) Thats a joke (or is it)

 

It bothers me because I see it as the equivalent of book burning. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were great men but they had flaws like everyone else. The statues were built for the historic things they achieved not because they were perfect.

 

Should they take down Jordan's statue in Chicago because he's degenerate gambler and a shitty owner?

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were great men but they had flaws like everyone else.

Make no mistake. Jefferson is on the list of things that will come in due time.

[Big Guy 1,400]

If tearing down statues of racists is ok, can you tell me where I can find some of Obama?

[supermike80 1,285]

 

It bothers me because I see it as the equivalent of book burning. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were great men but they had flaws like everyone else. The statues were built for the historic things they achieved not because they were perfect.

 

Should they take down Jordan's statue in Chicago because he's degenerate gambler and a shitty owner?

That's a perfect analogy. PERFECT....Cause I live in Detroit and I couldn't give a flying fock if Jordan's statue stays, remains, or is torn down bit by bit.

I feel the same way about the confederate statues. They have literally zero impact in my life..Didn't then, don't now. It just isn't something I feel is worth getting in an uproar over. This is the part i am trying to understand.

 

You're not eliminating the history by eliminating statues. Do you think if Jordan's statue melted down to nothing one day he wouldn't be remembered as one of the greatest ever?

[IGotWorms 3,302]

 

It bothers me because I see it as the equivalent of book burning. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were great men but they had flaws like everyone else. The statues were built for the historic things they achieved not because they were perfect.

 

Should they take down Jordan's statue in Chicago because he's degenerate gambler and a shitty owner?

I agree

[kilroy69 993]

I do not support this now nor will I ever support this.

[Sho Nuff 719]

If these cities are voting to remove them to put them in museums and off public squares and such...that is what should happen. That is how this country works.

 

if its jackholes tearing them down...fock them.

 

Anyone getting violent or threatening violence over their removal from these public spaces is a focking moron too.

 

Also...any erected during the civil rights movement should come down immediately as they were put up as an FU to that movement...focking stupid.

[Sho Nuff 719]

 

It bothers me because I see it as the equivalent of book burning. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were great men but they had flaws like everyone else. The statues were built for the historic things they achieved not because they were perfect.

 

Should they take down Jordan's statue in Chicago because he's degenerate gambler and a shitty owner?

 

If they are just tearing them down to destroy them...sure. If they are moving them to preserve history...fine. If they were put up for historical reasons...fine....keep that history.

Destroy those put up just to counter the civil rights movement.

[mighty_thor 115]

That's a perfect analogy. PERFECT....Cause I live in Detroit and I couldn't give a flying fock if Jordan's statue stays, remains, or is torn down bit by bit.

I feel the same way about the confederate statues. They have literally zero impact in my life..Didn't then, don't now. It just isn't something I feel is worth getting in an uproar over. This is the part i am trying to understand.

 

You're not eliminating the history by eliminating statues. Do you think if Jordan's statue melted down to nothing one day he wouldn't be remembered as one of the greatest ever?

 

I'm not in an uproar over it, I just think stuff like this:

 

 

 

is kind of stupid and the monuments represent something. Something that a father may notice on a walk with his son and leads him to educate his son on some history.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,593]

There shouldn't be monuments to traitors. Unhinged leftists shouldn't be tearing them down. There is a lawful mechanism in place to do that.

[Drizzay 644]

There shouldn't be monuments to traitors. Unhinged leftists shouldn't be tearing them down. There is a lawful mechanism in place to do that.

 

This. But many in the south don't picture them as traitors.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,593]

 

This. But many in the south don't picture them as traitors.

I would love to hear their rationale. There is a lawful mechanism in place for succession too.

[Gepetto 979]

I swear I am not going newbie here and being a d!ck just to be a d!ck but so what? How are you affected? Say tomorrow every statue of Thomas Jefferson is removed. Why would it matter?

You will still learn about him. You might even learn he was a slave owner(which was something I did not learn in elem school back in my day). He isn;t going away, just the statues. Why does it bother you SOOOO much?

 

Explain it. And if you end up saying it will lead to bestiality....Im hunting you down and murdering you. :-) Thats a joke (or is it)

 

Why should the crybaby lunatics win? I would want the statues to stay simply because their part of history going back hundreds of years and now the liberal/lefty/lunatics cry. Why cater to them? I say fock 'em because they're being weak. They need to learn to focus on something more productive. This is either all for show or because they are screwed up in their heads/personalities. Keep the statues up because they're already up and have been up for years. Same thing with the white lefty's crying about the Washington Redskins name? They're offended on behalf on the native Americans? Yea, right, fock all those people that cry and ###### and moan about being offended.

[supermike80 1,285]

 

Why should the crybaby lunatics win? I would want the statues to stay simply because their part of history going back hundreds of years and now the liberal/lefty/lunatics cry. Why cater to them? I say fock 'em because they're being weak. They need to learn to focus on something more productive. This is either all for show or because they are screwed up in their heads/personalities. Keep the statues up because they're already up and have been up for years. Same thing with the white lefty's crying about the Washington Redskins name? They're offended on behalf on the native Americans? Yea, right, fock all those people that cry and ###### and moan about being offended.

Ok I will answer that. I am 50 years old. For 50 years I haven;t given a sheet about these monuments. Barely gave them a thought. Because, as I have said before, they mean nothing to me, my family, or my history.

Now, some folks would like them taken down(please..not torn down by vandals..quit that) and all of a sudden NOW I am supposed to give a crap? It's like a child's game. You weren't going to eat that last piece of gum but now that your brother wants it, you decided you want it simply because you don't want him to have it.

 

 

Most people, especially in the north, didn't care. But as soon as someone started to care, you start acting all butthurt--and using the preserve history nonsensical argument to bolster it.

 

I mean if you want to leave the statues up JUST cause you don't want the crybaby lunatics to win, I respect that. Just admit it.

[Gepetto 979]

Ok I will answer that. I am 50 years old. For 50 years I haven;t given a sheet about these monuments. Barely gave them a thought. Because, as I have said before, they mean nothing to me, my family, or my history.

Now, some folks would like them taken down(please..not torn down by vandals..quit that) and all of a sudden NOW I am supposed to give a crap? It's like a child's game. You weren't going to eat that last piece of gum but now that your brother wants it, you decided you want it simply because you don't want him to have it.

 

 

Most people, especially in the north, didn't care. But as soon as someone started to care, you start acting all butthurt--and using the preserve history nonsensical argument to bolster it.

 

I mean if you want to leave the statues up JUST cause you don't want the crybaby lunatics to win, I respect that. Just admit it.

 

Yes, that's why my initial opinion is. Plus, I think the statues look pretty cool. I don't live in the south or ever see them, but we have interesting statues here in the midwest like covered wagons and horses.

[surferskin 30]

I would love to hear their rationale. There is a lawful mechanism in place for succession too.

Lee wasn't a traitor. He didn't own slaves. He was loyal to the state of VA. He would have fought for the onion had VA choose to stay. It was a different time.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,593]

Lee wasn't a traitor. He didn't own slaves. He was loyal to the state of VA. He would have fought for the onion had VA choose to stay. It was a different time.

Well, that hasn't convinced me he wasn't a traitor.

[surferskin 30]

That's a perfect analogy. PERFECT....Cause I live in Detroit and I couldn't give a flying fock if Jordan's statue stays, remains, or is torn down bit by bit.

I feel the same way about the confederate statues. They have literally zero impact in my life..Didn't then, don't now. It just isn't something I feel is worth getting in an uproar over. This is the part i am trying to understand.

 

You're not eliminating the history by eliminating statues. Do you think if Jordan's statue melted down to nothing one day he wouldn't be remembered as one of the greatest ever?

 

Well there you go. I'm from VA so the history has it's roots here. Maybe that's why it matters more to me than you.

 

As for how these men will be remembered, who knows? Especially way colleges are these days.

[Cruzer 1,992]

They should stay up... It is the history of our country...

So were Whites Only water fountains...

[surferskin 30]

Well, that hasn't convinced me he wasn't a traitor.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over that but states were a bigger deal back then. It's hard to see that through 2017 eyes.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,593]

I'm not going to lose any sleep over that but states were a bigger deal back then. It's hard to see that through 2017 eyes.

Well, Lincoln and the rest of the states thought differently

[surferskin 30]

Well, Lincoln and the rest of the states thought differently

Wut?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,593]

Wut?

You say states were a bigger deal back then. Obviously Lincoln and the Union states thought the republic was a bigger deal.

[surferskin 30]

You say states were a bigger deal back then. Obviously Lincoln and the Union states thought the republic was a bigger deal.

And depending on which way your state voted, you ended up in the union or the confederacy.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,593]

And depending on which way your state voted, you ended up in the union or the confederacy.

The confederate states did not have enough votes to be granted succession. They had no right to decide for themselves. Their actions were unlawful under the constitution

[surferskin 30]

The confederate states did not have enough votes to be granted succession. They had no right to decide for themselves. Their actions were unlawful under the constitution

So what does this mean to the average southern citizen? These people didn't choose to be born below the mason Dixon line. Most didn't own slaves or want to fight and die to preserve rich men's plantations. Their states succeeded right or wrong and they were caught up in the conflict. Saying they were all traitors is simplistic and stupid.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,593]

So what does this mean to the average southern citizen? These people didn't choose to be born below the mason Dixon line. Most didn't own slaves or want to fight and die to preserve rich men's plantations. Their states succeeded right or wrong and they were caught up in the conflict. Saying they were all traitors is simplistic and stupid.

Robert E Lee had a choice. He chose wrong.

[surferskin 30]

Robert E Lee had a choice. He chose wrong.

You make it sound like it was an easy decision.

 

So you think he should have choose to fight and kill his friends and family? Burn his home? To do otherwise makes him a traitor?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,593]

You make it sound like it was an easy decision.

 

So you think he should have choose to fight and kill his friends and family? Burn his home? To do otherwise makes him a traitor?

He could have sat it out. Or better yet, abided by the constitution that he swore to uphold. And the country he swore to protect, from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

[Thornton Melon 542]

Make no mistake. Jefferson is on the list of things that will come in due time.

Washington, too. Some day, Kruger Industrial Smoothing will grind Washington's bust on Mt. Rushmore down to a knub.

[supermike80 1,285]

 

Yes, that's why my initial opinion is. Plus, I think the statues look pretty cool. I don't live in the south or ever see them, but we have interesting statues here in the midwest like covered wagons and horses.

See I can get behind this. Like I said, I have no relationship with the Conf flag but I think it's pretty bad ass looking.

[supermike80 1,285]

The confederate states did not have enough votes to be granted succession. They had no right to decide for themselves. Their actions were unlawful under the constitution

Blah blah....Enslaved blacks weren't a full human under the constitution. Stop with that stupid argument

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

He could have sat it out. Or better yet, abided by the constitution that he swore to uphold. And the country he swore to protect, from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

So Washington was a traitor too then?