It's a TD for the Saints D/ST

[The Grand Master 0]

You're an idiot.

 

Excellent argument and I see that your point is valid.

 

Except... wait...I see a whole page 3 with many people saying the same thing I did.

 

Good God, feel free to at least say something intelligent rather than prove to me that you have the brightness and wit of a Kindergarten kid. Am I supposed to respond with "I know you are but what am I?" or would that be too "1st grade level" for you?

 

Standard FF scoring gives points to Defensive and Special Teams units, meaning they need to be on the field.

[Drizzay 644]

Actually, it doesn't become a special teams play until a kicked ball passes the LOS, prior to that it's still offense/defense.

 

But it furthers my argument that plays aren't ruled by WHO is on the field, but by WHAT HAPPENS on the field.

 

 

[Law 220]

And this morning the turnover and TD were gone! Points taken away from Saints D per Yahoo.

 

Maybe they come back again, who knows. It matters not. I still lost.

 

[Franknbeans 46]

I think that the way it should be scored is Meachem getting the TD. The Saints D was not on the field so they should not be given credit for the TD. The main rationale I have for this is when fantasy defenses are drafted/claimed off waivers it is for the intention of those players getting credit for turnovers/TD's, not offensive players. It is a technicality that the offensive player in this case turns into a defensive player (by NFL rules) becasue of the change of possession.

 

Although not exactly the same, I compare this to the situation where a punt returner scores a TD. Technically, the special teams should get credit for a TD and the individual returner (assuming he was started) should also get credit for one. In the Meachem case, the offense is not a separate category of starter like the defense is so no TD can be awarded to the offense but Meachem should certainly be awarded the TD.

[Kent 228]

That decision cost a guy in my league a playoff spot. HAHA. His opponent has the Saints D and that gave him the win.

 

CBS has a D TD awarded. I agree with it.

[Gepetto 977]

Most FF Scoring for individual offensive players gives 6 points for rushing touchdowns and 6 points for receiving touchdowns, therefore, since Robert Meacham scored a Touchdown on a fumble recovery, he gets 0 fantasy points.

 

Saints Defense/Special Teams in fantasy football refers to that part of the team that plays defense and/or special teams. The New Orleans Saints Defense (or Special Teams) did NOT score a touchdown on that play. Robert Meacham who was playing for the offense at the position of Wide Reciever did score. Meacham always plays offense and he is not part of the New Orleans Saints Defense or Special Teams in the NFL or on your fantasy football squad.

I win this thread.

 

 

In case you missed it. See above. Unless your league has specific scoring setup of awarding TD points for fumble recoveries by an offensive player, Meacham does not get credited with a TD because fantasy points are awarded for rushing TDs and receiving TDs.

[KSB2424 3,082]

Meacham does not get credited with a TD because fantasy points are awarded for rushing TDs.

So how did Meecham get into the endzone if he didn't rush it in? Did he fly it in? Was some sort of telepathy used?

[swandown 0]

So how did Meecham get into the endzone if he didn't rush it in? Did he fly it in? Was some sort of telepathy used?

He "returned" it. It's neither a rushing TD nor a receiving TD. He gets zero rushing yards and zero receiving yards.

[KSB2424 3,082]

He "returned" it. It's neither a rushing TD nor a receiving TD. He gets zero rushing yards and zero receiving yards.

So you are saying he didn't score a TD? Was I dreaming?

[swandown 0]

So you are saying he didn't score a TD? Was I dreaming?

He scored a "return TD". He did not score a "rushing TD" or a "receiving TD".

[KSB2424 3,082]

He scored a "return TD". He did not score a "rushing TD" or a "receiving TD".

The person I was responding to said Meecham should get no points whatsoever. HTH

 

If, lets say, Mike Bell ran for 20 yards and pitched it to Meecham who ran it 30 yards for a score. How would you score it?

 

The turnover (a negative) plus the other turnover (another negative) equals a positive (where we began from). So it should be scored just like the above example.

[FeelingMN 273]

Meachem absolutely should get credit for that TD. It's no different than a fumble recovery in the endzone. In both my leagues, he was given credit for the TD...and rightly so.

 

And I don't care one way or another if the D/ST gets credit for the TD. Personally I don't think they should, because the Saints' offense ultimately scored...not the defense. But it would have been nice to have some consistency from Sunday to Tuesday on the matter. Sunday afternoon, no TD. Sunday evening, TD. Monday evening, TD......hey, I won! Tuesday morning, no TD....I lost.... It shouldn't have taken 40 hours to arrive at the correct scoring.

[Gepetto 977]

So how did Meecham get into the endzone if he didn't rush it in? Did he fly it in? Was some sort of telepathy used?

 

He stripped the ball from the guy that intercepted it. Then he ran it into the endzone for a TD. It was not a rushing attempt so no points can be awarded for a RUSHING TOUCHDOWN as he did not rush the ball. It's a fumble recovery for a touchdown. A lot of leagues scoring are for only rushing TDs or receiving TDs and on that play Meacham did not have either type.

[dylan 0]

That decision cost a guy in my league a playoff spot. HAHA. His opponent has the Saints D and that gave him the win.

 

CBS has a D TD awarded. I agree with it.

 

i missed the playoffs in a money league by three season points because of this ruling...to the benefit of a texas longhorn fan. can they screw this NU fan over any more.

[Thornton Melon 542]

After the McCardell play in 2003, someone on this board posted that RTSports contacted the NFL for their interpretation. I think the NFL response was posted verbatim, but the jist was that teams do not change "status" during a down (as long as it is a run/pass and not a punt/kick), no matter how many times the ball changes hands. The offensive team is trying to move the ball forward, and the defensive team is trying to stop them. During the course of trying to stop the offense, the defense can gain possession of the ball on a turnover and score, but they are still the defense. It was a direct result of this that we instituted the "McCardell rule" as some call it, where the player who scored gets credit for the TD, but his team's D/ST gets no credit for the fumble recovery or TD. It made sense then, and it makes sense now.

 

Flash forward to today, and the NFL rule book now states that teams do change status during a play. I think this was added to be consistent with the fact that if a "Team B" fumbles a turnover back to "Team A", "Team A" gets a fresh set of downs, rather than determining the down by the final spot of the ball. I personally hate this rule. I think the offensive team should have to gain the original first down spot to be awarded the first down. To me, the turnover was just a "blip" on their way to trying to gain the first down. For example, on the Meachem play, the Saints started the play 3rd and 26 on the Washington 44. Moore intercepted, and fumbled on the original line of scrimmage. Say Meachem didn't score, but instead got tackled after gaining 3 yards. By NFL rule, it's 1st and 10 for the Saints. I think it should be 4th and 23. Wanna argue? Fock off, you know I'm right!

[PackYourNut 47]

Anybody have a link to the official stats put out by Elias today? Our league is going to use that ruling to determine offensive vs. defensive score.

[Evil Genius 0]

Elias has it scored as a Defensive TD.

 

CBS published a detailed explanation of why they scored it as they did - and this included their communication with the NFL and the Elias sports bureau.

 

CBS stipulated that both agencies have it officially scored as a Defensive TD - and that's why they too ruled it as such.

 

This is Dave Richards:

 

Now, we know how seriously you all take Fantasy Football. We take Fantasy Football very seriously ourselves. That's why we confirmed the play with the Elias Sports Bureau, the official statistician of the NFL. As per the NFL, Elias does not classify touchdowns as "offensive" or "defensive." Instead, it applies how the touchdown was scored; in this case, a return following a change of possession. How could Meachem possibly get credit for something he did that had nothing to do with his offensive prowess?

 

Furthermore, we contacted the NFL just to make sure we were interpreting the play and its result the right way just as we said it in the second paragraph of this section. The NFL agreed that it was all correct from a rules standpoint.

 

Even though this rationalizes the decision from a Fantasy Football perspective fairly soundly, there will be still plenty of you dudes b1tching out there because you're little girls who lost on an unusual play. Keep it coming you pu$$ies.

[PackYourNut 47]

Elias has it scored as a Defensive TD.

 

As per the NFL, Elias does not classify touchdowns as "offensive" or "defensive."

 

Do what? You contradict yourself here.

 

So, basically Elias is saying it's a miscellaneous TD.

[KSB2424 3,082]

Even though this rationalizes the decision from a Fantasy Football perspective fairly soundly, there will be still plenty of you dudes b1tching out there because you're little girls who lost on an unusual play. Keep it coming you pu$$ies.

This was an interesting debate on scoring. I would venture to guess that more than half the people that posted their opinion in this thread did not own or play against the Saints D last week. Not sure why the hostility.

 

Do you always result to name calling when somebody differs in opinion with you?

[Stewburtx8 67]

Elias has it scored as a Defensive TD.

 

CBS published a detailed explanation of why they scored it as they did - and this included their communication with the NFL and the Elias sports bureau.

 

CBS stipulated that both agencies have it officially scored as a Defensive TD - and that's why they too ruled it as such.

 

This is Dave Richards:

 

Now, we know how seriously you all take Fantasy Football. We take Fantasy Football very seriously ourselves. That's why we confirmed the play with the Elias Sports Bureau, the official statistician of the NFL. As per the NFL, Elias does not classify touchdowns as "offensive" or "defensive." Instead, it applies how the touchdown was scored; in this case, a return following a change of possession. How could Meachem possibly get credit for something he did that had nothing to do with his offensive prowess?

 

Furthermore, we contacted the NFL just to make sure we were interpreting the play and its result the right way just as we said it in the second paragraph of this section. The NFL agreed that it was all correct from a rules standpoint.

 

Even though this rationalizes the decision from a Fantasy Football perspective fairly soundly, there will be still plenty of you dudes b1tching out there because you're little girls who lost on an unusual play. Keep it coming you pu$$ies.

 

 

This is CBS' explanation and interpretation, that doesn't mean that it is ultimately the end all right answer.

 

Espn also contacted Elias and ruled the play based on the ruling by Elias. Espn said that Elias ruled the play as a "fumble recovery for TD" and not as a "defensive" TD. Therefore, based on this ruling they treated the play just like any offensive fumble recovery for TD and gave the points to Meachem. They said that because the Saints defense was not on the field and the play wasn't ruled as a defensive TD, they could not give the points to the Saints D.

 

There is no cut and dry answer to this, stop acting like there is. I would bet half the people arguing or debating in this thread were unaffected by the play, including myself.

[enis_44 0]

If Meechem becomes the Defense when the ball is initially turned over, then doesn't he become the offense again once he gets the ball back? You can't have it one way and not the other.

 

Using this logic, a defense would never score a TD, because everytime they get an interception or fumble, they would become the offense.

[ttmm 0]

This is such a great argument, let's expand it... Why does a FF defense get charged with "points-against" when their team's QB throws a pick-6? The defense wasn't on the field at the time...

[PackYourNut 47]

I don't own either player, I just want a definitive answer as to whether it was offensive or defensive. Clearly, CBS, ESPN, Yahoo and dozens of other FF leagues are scoring it differently, which makes it harder for everyone to have an answer.

 

As it stands now in the official game book, it is listed as a offensive TD.

[Matthew's Berry's 0]

I've heard the arguments ... and seen it go both ways in my leagues (CBS - Saints D, ESPN - nope).

 

What I hear is when the ball is turned over, the Offense becames Defense and the Defense becomes Offense ... correct?

 

So if that is true, when the ball turned over AGAIN, wouldn't the two teams revert back?

So Saints becomes the OFFENSE again, and thus giving Meachem the SCORE???

 

 

I'm glad for Saints D (won I score in my CBS league for it) but ......

[Vikings4ever 496]

I've heard the arguments ... and seen it go both ways in my leagues (CBS - Saints D, ESPN - nope).

 

What I hear is when the ball is turned over, the Offense becames Defense and the Defense becomes Offense ... correct?

 

So if that is true, when the ball turned over AGAIN, wouldn't the two teams revert back?

So Saints becomes the OFFENSE again, and thus giving Meachem the SCORE???

I'm glad for Saints D (won I score in my CBS league for it) but ......

He scored the TD on a defensive play, recovering an opponent's fumble.

[Matthew's Berry's 0]

He scored the TD on a defensive play, recovering an opponent's fumble.

 

Hey I agree, just playing devils advocate.

 

I mean IT MUST be scored as a RECOVERY and for the DEFENSE/ST.

Otherwise, if you are a believer that Meachem deserves it then shouldn't he get the yards too ... or what if he FUMBLED the ball AGAIN, would you give Meachem the FUMBLE? Probably not.

 

My belief is once the ball is considered a TURNOVER and the ball CHANGES POSSESSION then we are dealing with D/ST from here on out, no matter what happens. Hence, Saints D gets the points, done.

[Stewburtx8 67]

I don't own either player, I just want a definitive answer as to whether it was offensive or defensive. Clearly, CBS, ESPN, Yahoo and dozens of other FF leagues are scoring it differently, which makes it harder for everyone to have an answer.

 

As it stands now in the official game book, it is listed as a offensive TD.

 

 

Its a good argument and it is really never ending. There is NO definite answer. In my opinion, if your league does not have a rule in place already for this (which some leagues do because of the McCardell play), then you live with however the site you are using scored it. To try to change this ruling just opens up a whole can of worms on offensive vs defensive scores. The only way i could see a change being made is if your league voted unanimously for it.

[KSB2424 3,082]

He scored the TD on a defensive play, recovering an opponent's fumble.

I think 'technically' you are correct. However that is not the spirit of the scoring (rules). Which is where I have a problem. It's sort of like getting off of a charge on a crime by a technicality. The "spirit of the law" is that the DST gets points for Defensive Units or Special Teams actions that result in points. That is what is inferred.

 

While I think you are technically correct, I have no problem with scoring it as an Meecham offensive TD and not a Saints DST. That is what common sense tells us happened even though the action of recovering a fumble is a defensive action.

 

[MikieV101 0]

This is such a great argument, let's expand it... Why does a FF defense get charged with "points-against" when their team's QB throws a pick-6? The defense wasn't on the field at the time...

 

Not in my league....why would any league follow that rule?

[swandown 0]

This is such a great argument, let's expand it... Why does a FF defense get charged with "points-against" when their team's QB throws a pick-6? The defense wasn't on the field at the time..

Not in my league....why would any league follow that rule?

It's the same logic for giving Meachem's TD to the D/ST: Team A was technically on defense at the time that the pick-6 was scored; therefore, you should penalize Team A's D/ST.

 

edit: I don't agree with this logic at all, by the way. But if you're going to claim that Meachem's TD goes to the D/ST, then you must agree that an interception TD against New Orleans' offense should be counted against New Orleans' D/ST.

[Vikings4ever 496]

But if you're going to claim that Meachem's TD goes to the D/ST, then you must agree that an interception TD against New Orleans' offense should be counted against New Orleans' D/ST.

 

In most every league I've been in, this is the case. And I believe this should be the deciding point on how each league scores the Meachem TD.

[Vikings4ever 496]

I think 'technically' you are correct. However that is not the spirit of the scoring (rules). Which is where I have a problem. It's sort of like getting off of a charge on a crime by a technicality. The "spirit of the law" is that the DST gets points for Defensive Units or Special Teams actions that result in points. That is what is inferred.

 

While I think you are technically correct, I have no problem with scoring it as an Meecham offensive TD and not a Saints DST. That is what common sense tells us happened even though the action of recovering a fumble is a defensive action.

 

The problem with that "spirit" is that there are holes in it too, ones I've states multiple times in the thread (offensive player making an INT on a hail mary, fake FGs/punts).

 

There's no 100% correct way to score a play like this, but as long as a league doesn't have a specific rule for plays like this and (normal) defensive scores count against the other team's D, I believe this play should be scored for the Saints D.