Sorry another Hunt Question: Is Barkley really a no brainer over Hunt ?

[LoOnAtIk 75]

So teams are going to let Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt, and Sammy Watkins run free in the secondary because they think Mahomes can't throw them the ball? Why do you think the Chiefs let Alex Smith go? Because Mahomes isn't ready yet? They don't want to win anymore? I have heard multiple people on the NFL network state that they are sure Mahomes is ready to play.

You are claiming that last year is the best that Hunt could possibly do? That's just a weird take on things. You act like he's just a mediocre player that simply got lucky winning the rushing title.

 

Every site I've seen has the Giants oline ranked in the mid 20's this year. Barkley rushes 14 times for 35 yards against Rutgers, and now is running behind one of the worst olines in the NFL and is transcendent and going to rush for 1000's of yards against Philly?

 

And by the way, I would take Mahomes any day over Manning, the turn over machine.

Same way youre bashing his stats vs college defenses its like you forget hes running behind a college O-line with a college QB and college talent around him.

 

The eye test doesnt lie. Hunt is a stud but hes a 1-cut bruising runner with great speed. Barkley was drafted 2nd overall for a reason. Sometimes you have to look past the stats.

[seafoam1 1,878]

Same way youre bashing his stats vs college defenses its like you forget hes running behind a college O-line with a college QB and college talent around him.

 

The eye test doesnt lie. Hunt is a stud but hes a 1-cut bruising runner with great speed. Barkley was drafted 2nd overall for a reason. Sometimes you have to look past the stats.

Reggie Bush drafted 2nd overall just like Barkley. Ron Dayne 11th overall. Trent Richardson 3rd overall. Ronnie Brown 2nd overall. Cedric Benson 4th. Cadillac Williams 5th. Salaam? etc..

 

Penn State is a major college program with top level players. Rutgers, not so much.

 

The eye test??

[shutdown 40]

It's been said by many other people that fantasy productivity is a combination of talent & opportunity. Both can be difficult to quantify. You you assume, to some degree, that talent aligns with draft status and that Barkley should be a superior talent. This is a bit subjective, given that if you redrafted today, Hunt would probably go higher than he did last year. Plus Barkley hasn't played a down in the NFL, but I think most observers would give that edge to Barkley.

 

As for opportunity that incorporates a lot of factors. How many touches, red-zone touches, plays on the field, plays run by the offense, running percentage, utilization in the passing game, O-line ability to open holes, other players on the depth chart etc... All of those will determine how often a player gets to use his talent. When I look at the opportunity factor, I don't see a significant difference between the two. Yes the Giants O-line is worse so Barkley will potentially have a harder time finding running room. Both teams have a significant number of weapons and both have some questions at QB. I'd argue that the depth chart with Spencer Ware looming favors Barkley as Gallman will only be used to spell Barkley and will have no other role. I expect the KC offense to higher scoring providing more red zone opportunities. So from a projection standpoint I see 2 backs with pretty similar opportunities.

 

Thus the reason I think you see Barkley going before Hunt is that the assumption is, he's the superior talent and he has equal opportunity to put up fantasy points. I'm not sure you'd have this discussion if Barkley had gone to the Pats where nobody really knows what the RB opportunity is, and Hunt would likely be the higher drafted player in that scenario.

 

Plus people tend to over-project when there's no data to base projections on. By all accounts Barkley should be a successful NFL back but we really have no basis for that other than subjective evaluation of his talent.

 

I wouldn't question anyone liking one or the other more, but, like most, I think Barkley is the overall better back and the situation he's in will give him just as much opportunity to put up points.

[Mullog 12]

I'm a Giants fan and as much as I hope Barkley has the better season, Hunt is the logical pick in any format.

 

Barkley's potential has me more excited for a season than I've been in a long time but the truth is we just don't know how it's going to play out. On paper the Giants' improvements look great and if things go as they should we could see them averaging 25+ points per game. That would be a big jump from last year's 15.4.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

Reggie Bush drafted 2nd overall just like Barkley. Ron Dayne 11th overall. Trent Richardson 3rd overall. Ronnie Brown 2nd overall. Cedric Benson 4th. Cadillac Williams 5th. Salaam? etc..

 

Penn State is a major college program with top level players. Rutgers, not so much.

 

The eye test??

 

Yes, the "eye test"... ever heard of it?

 

Barkley was already hyped as the best RB of this year's class, then he went in and DOMINATED the combine. He is a supreme talent that has graded higher than a lot of RBs in recent memory if not the highest. Zeke and Gurley included.

[seafoam1 1,878]

 

Yes, the "eye test"... ever heard of it?

 

Barkley was already hyped as the best RB of this year's class, then he went in and DOMINATED the combine. He is a supreme talent that has graded higher than a lot of RBs in recent memory if not the highest. Zeke and Gurley included.

Yeah, the eye test. Just like Reggie Bush drafted 2nd overall like Barkley. Ron Dayne 11th overall. Trent Richardson 3rd overall. Ronnie Brown 2nd overall. Cedric Benson 4th. Cadillac Williams 5th. Salaam? etc

[LoOnAtIk 75]

Yeah, the eye test. Just like Reggie Bush drafted 2nd overall like Barkley. Ron Dayne 11th overall. Trent Richardson 3rd overall. Ronnie Brown 2nd overall. Cedric Benson 4th. Cadillac Williams 5th. Salaam? etc

Look at all of those mentioned combines then add LT, Peterson, Gurley, Zeke etc and compare.

 

The kid is a physical specimen.

[TBayXXXVII 2,105]

Yeah, the eye test. Just like Reggie Bush drafted 2nd overall like Barkley. Ron Dayne 11th overall. Trent Richardson 3rd overall. Ronnie Brown 2nd overall. Cedric Benson 4th. Cadillac Williams 5th. Salaam? etc

 

For every Reggie Bush, I can give you an Adrian Peterson. For every Ron Dayne, I can give you a Marshawn Lynch. Your point on this is moot.

[seafoam1 1,878]

 

For every Reggie Bush, I can give you an Adrian Peterson. For every Ron Dayne, I can give you a Marshawn Lynch. Your point on this is moot.

50/50 is not moot. And it's not even 50/50. There are more players that come out of college as highly touted and don't live up to expectations than those that do.

 

Actually, give me an Adrian Peterson for every Reggie Bush. I would like to see that list. Sounds like you think there are a lot of Adrian Peterson's out there. One of the best RBs to have ever played the game and you think they are as common as top 5 drafted players that turn up mediocre.

 

You can't use David Johnson, LeVeon Bell, Kareem Hunt, Kamara, etc...to make your point as they were not drafted top 10. .

 

Lawrence Phillips maybe?

[seafoam1 1,878]

Look at all of those mentioned combines then add LT, Peterson, Gurley, Zeke etc and compare.

 

The kid is a physical specimen.

Gurley sucked his first year. Where did you draft Gurley last year? He may suck this year. The combine does not predict the career path of a player. And now you bring up LT and Peterson? Let's just add Payton and Sanders. Barkley has done nothing in the NFL. And you compare him to the best of all time? Such a bad take on the situation by you.

[jrokh 567]

Gurley had over 1100 rushing yards at 4.8 a carry with 10 tds in 13 games his first year. Yup terrible indeed...

[seafoam1 1,878]

Gurley had over 1100 rushing yards at 4.8 a carry with 10 tds in 13 games his first year. Yup terrible indeed...

Ok. I meant 2016. 16 games. 885 yards. 3.2 yards per carry. 6 total touchdowns. Where did you draft him in 2017?

[jrokh 567]

I had the second pick and took lev bell, but gurley was long gone before it swung back to me.

[TBayXXXVII 2,105]

50/50 is not moot. And it's not even 50/50. There are more players that come out of college as highly touted and don't live up to expectations than those that do.

 

Actually, give me an Adrian Peterson for every Reggie Bush. I would like to see that list. Sounds like you think there are a lot of Adrian Peterson's out there. One of the best RBs to have ever played the game and you think they are as common as top 5 drafted players that turn up mediocre.

 

You can't use David Johnson, LeVeon Bell, Kareem Hunt, Kamara, etc...to make your point as they were not drafted top 10. .

 

Lawrence Phillips maybe?

 

The problem you're having is that Benson, Brown, and Williams weren't bad. They were fine as rookies. Cadillac ran for almost 1200 yards. His 2nd year was ok, but the situation sucked, the following year he tore his patella tendon. That's just bad luck.

 

Ronnie Brown did well too. He rushed for 4.4, 4.2, 5.1, 4.3, and 4.4 yards per carry. He had injury issues after his 2nd season.

 

Cedric Benson was a bust early, but he was good when he got to Cincinnati.

 

Salaam rushed for over 1000 yards and had 10 TD's his rookie season then got hurt.

 

If you're argument is that RB's get hurt, no one is going to argue with you, but that also apply's to every RB. In fact, almost every RB you've stated more directly goes to why you should draft Barkley and NOT Hunt.

[seafoam1 1,878]

 

The problem you're having is that Benson, Brown, and Williams weren't bad. They were fine as rookies. Cadillac ran for almost 1200 yards. His 2nd year was ok, but the situation sucked, the following year he tore his patella tendon. That's just bad luck.

 

Ronnie Brown did well too. He rushed for 4.4, 4.2, 5.1, 4.3, and 4.4 yards per carry. He had injury issues after his 2nd season.

 

Cedric Benson was a bust early, but he was good when he got to Cincinnati.

 

Salaam rushed for over 1000 yards and had 10 TD's his rookie season then got hurt.

 

If you're argument is that RB's get hurt, no one is going to argue with you, but that also apply's to every RB. In fact, almost every RB you've stated more directly goes to why you should draft Barkley and NOT Hunt.

My argument is that they were not that great. Many later drafted backs were better. Drafted 2nd doesn't put them in the HOF. And the situation sucks in NY. Yeah, I want Benson as a first rounder.

[TBayXXXVII 2,105]

Those guys weren't drafted in fantasy as RB1's. When they were in the league, there were a lot more feature backs than today. In 2005, there were 16 RB's to crack 1,000 yards. The following year there was 23. Last year? There was 9. It's a different game today than it was back then. Rookies, from a fantasy perspective, weren't drafted until like the 4th and 5th rounds as RB2's and 3's.

[polecatt 399]

 

Indiana's DLine ranked 32nd in the NCAA against the run, while Penn State's OLine ranked 63rd in run blocking. So, I'm going to say yes for Indiana. No for Rutgers. Of their 13 opponents last year, 6 ranked in the top 32. I would call that, "about half", wouldn't you? Yeah, I did exaggerated the other half though. Forgive me.

 

But in those 6 games, Barkley averaged 4.6 ypc (483 yards on 104 attempts), with 7 TD's. Receiving, he had 23 receptions for 203 yards and another TD. So basically, his average game was 21 targets, 115 yards, and 1.3 TD's per game... when his OLine was over matched.

 

Do you want to go back to 2016? You know, when Penn State's OLine was ranked 120th and he played against 10 opponents who's DLine ranked in the top 67. Now of course, no one is going to say that a top 67 DLine is great, but they were around the top half of the country (I think there's 130 schools). In those 10 games, he averaged 20 touches, 109 yards, and 1.6 TD's per game.

Who cares?

You can't accurately compare a college OL or DL to the NFL

It's a totally different ball game

[Hardcore troubadour 12,563]

Yeah, the eye test. Just like Reggie Bush drafted 2nd overall like Barkley. Ron Dayne 11th overall. Trent Richardson 3rd overall. Ronnie Brown 2nd overall. Cedric Benson 4th. Cadillac Williams 5th. Salaam? etc

Ron Dayne? That was almost twenty years ago and he was the 11th pick and a reach. Big difference between being called the best player in the draft and going 11. Sheeez.

[TBayXXXVII 2,105]

Who cares?

You can't accurately compare a college OL or DL to the NFL

It's a totally different ball game

Go back and read what lead to this. No one is making the comparison that you alledge.

[listen2me 23 1,529]

Barkley is a supreme talent. Probably in a tier of his own going all the way back to AP coming out. The Gurley's, Fournettes, Zekes don't quite compare to him physically.

 

But I feel some people think it is a video game and Barkley can just make a guy miss and stiff arm 2 more each play. Maybe the Giants line really turns around a lot. But to read "he doesn't need a good line" is laughable. There is a reason why RBs are considered a dime a dozen. 3rd 4th rounders get drafted and come in an start day 1 all the time. RBs don't get paid top dollar for a reason. Obviously the elite talents can do a little more than others. But RB is so dependent on oline and QB play. Average RBs can look pretty good with dynamic offenses and good blocking.

 

Dynasty/Keeper.....take the supreme talent and expect their team to put them in the right position to be great.

 

Redraft? I think he is being overrated. But maybe the Giants will turn it around quick and look nothing like they did last year.

 

I think it would be dumb for the Giants to run Barkley into the ground in year 1 with 350+ touches. Not sure if they will or not. OBJR and Engram will need to see their targets.

[TBayXXXVII 2,105]

Why would Barkley need 350+ touches? Only Bell eclipsed that number last year. Since 2013, it's only happened 9 times (by 7 different RB's), so that's only 2 per year.

 

Average number of touches by RB's since 2013 / Number of RB's to reach 350 touches

2013: 324 (#1 366: McCoy) / 2

2014: 326 (#1 449: Murray) / 3

2015: 295 (#1 357: Peterson) / 1

2016: 373 (#1 357: D. Johnson) / 2

2017: 324 (#1 406: Bell) / 1

 

If your starting point is total yards from scrimmage, here is the average of touches by the top 10 RB's.

2013: 318

2014: 321

2015: 287

2016: 308

2017: 313

 

So basically, if you're an efficient player (yards per touch), you only need about 300-315 to be a top 10 player. What separates #10 from #1 will be the number of receptions (which we believe Barkely should get a good share of), and TD's, which is hard to predict.

[seafoam1 1,878]

Ron Dayne? That was almost twenty years ago and he was the 11th pick and a reach. Big difference between being called the best player in the draft and going 11. Sheeez.

They were all drafted high and were busts.

The RB position is more random than anything to call who is going to be great.

[TBayXXXVII 2,105]

They were all drafted high and were busts.

The RB position is more random than anything to call who is going to be great.

 

They weren't all busts as rookies. They also were all considered as RB2's in their year... for the reason in which is stated. They weren't considered special talents.

[seafoam1 1,878]

 

They weren't all busts as rookies. They also were all considered as RB2's in their year... for the reason in which is stated. They weren't considered special talents.

I have a hard time believing that those teams took RBs at #2, 3, 4, and 5 overall and didn't think they were special talents. People thought Trent Richardson was going to be great. Those in Chicago thought Benson was going to be great. I was there listening to the banter. Lev Bell was drafted 48 overall. David Johnson was a third rounder. Never know. When all is said and done, there is a good chance that Barkley doesn't end up as the best back out of this draft.

[TBayXXXVII 2,105]

I have a hard time believing that those teams took RBs at #2, 3, 4, and 5 overall and didn't think they were special talents. People thought Trent Richardson was going to be great. Those in Chicago thought Benson was going to be great. I was there listening to the banter. Lev Bell was drafted 48 overall. David Johnson was a third rounder. Never know. When all is said and done, there is a good chance that Barkley doesn't end up as the best back out of this draft.

 

LOL, I still don't why you keep bringing these 4 up (well, 3 really), as only Benson actually makes your real point and even he doesn't completely do it. Benson was a bust in Chicago, but he lived up to his billing in Cincinnati. Williams, Brown, and Richardson all had good rookie seasons. It wasn't until their second year and later where they busted (Richardson), or had injury issues (Williams and Brown). Three of the four back up the reason to draft Barkley over Hunt. In a re-draft, you only have these guys for 1 year. Well, 3 of the 4 had a good first year. If I told you that I saw into the future and said that Barkley would have a rookie season like Brown, Williams, and Richardson... and Hunt would have a second year like Brown, Williams, and Richardson, everyone on these boards - including you - would draft Barkley and not Hunt.

[seafoam1 1,878]

 

LOL, I still don't why you keep bringing these 4 up (well, 3 really), as only Benson actually makes your real point and even he doesn't completely do it. Benson was a bust in Chicago, but he lived up to his billing in Cincinnati. Williams, Brown, and Richardson all had good rookie seasons. It wasn't until their second year and later where they busted (Richardson), or had injury issues (Williams and Brown). Three of the four back up the reason to draft Barkley over Hunt. In a re-draft, you only have these guys for 1 year. Well, 3 of the 4 had a good first year. If I told you that I saw into the future and said that Barkley would have a rookie season like Brown, Williams, and Richardson... and Hunt would have a second year like Brown, Williams, and Richardson, everyone on these boards - including you - would draft Barkley and not Hunt.

I'm in on Hunt over Barkley. I only bring up the other RBs because none of them were even close to living up to expectations in their careers, and all drafted top 5. And I see people here saying Barkley was drafted #2 for a reason. It's my opinion the giants blew that pick, they need a QB. Barkley could very well go on to have a good career, but a ton of backs have been drafted top 5 and did nothing spectacular in the NFL. If Barkley wins the rushing title this year, then I will start comparing him to the rookie who won the title along with 53 receptions last year.

[TBayXXXVII 2,105]

Bust careers don't always mean bust rookie seasons. As with 3 of the 4 you brought up. They had good rookie seasons.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

I'm in on Hunt over Barkley. I only bring up the other RBs because none of them were even close to living up to expectations in their careers, and all drafted top 5. And I see people here saying Barkley was drafted #2 for a reason. It's my opinion the giants blew that pick, they need a QB. Barkley could very well go on to have a good career, but a ton of backs have been drafted top 5 and did nothing spectacular in the NFL. If Barkley wins the rushing title this year, then I will start comparing him to the rookie who won the title along with 53 receptions last year.

So the giants need a QB yet passed up on a bunch of them to draft this guy.... hmmmm I wonder what that could possibly mean other than the giants have no clue what theyre doing and Seafoam would clearly make a better GM.

 

As for the 2005 draft, not sure if you remember well but that years talent pool was awful. Alex smith and Rodgers were only QBs, Braylon Edwards and Troy Williamson were the WRs.... frank gore fell to the 3rd round but I can tell you with 100% certainty he only fell because he blew out both of his knees in college.

[seafoam1 1,878]

So the giants need a QB yet passed up on a bunch of them to draft this guy.... hmmmm I wonder what that could possibly mean other than the giants have no clue what theyre doing and Seafoam would clearly make a better GM.

 

As for the 2005 draft, not sure if you remember well but that years talent pool was awful. Alex smith and Rodgers were only QBs, Braylon Edwards and Troy Williamson were the WRs.... frank gore fell to the 3rd round but I can tell you with 100% certainty he only fell because he blew out both of his knees in college.

We would not have any sports entertainment if only GMs were able to voice opinions about the teams they manage. And as most fans know, GMs get fired all the time for making poor decisions. And yes, Barkley to the Giants was a mistake, even if he turns out to be a decent back. This time next year they will be talking about rebuilding.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

To simplify this as much as possible for you...

 

There are plenty of owners out there (myself included) who think Saquon has a chance to be the greatest RB ever. Is it a gamble? Certainly, but isnt that what fantasy sports is? At its very core it literally is gambling lol

 

Kareem hunt led the NFL in rushing last year however whats misleading is he didnt even crack 1350 rushing yards. Thats a great number but would you like me to list all of the RBs that have ever hit that number....? Im sure half of them are not in the HOF.

 

Rudi Johnson has cracked 1400 yards twice. I dont think hes better than Saquon Barkley and Barkley hasnt even played a down yet.

 

I love Kareem hunt I just want you to see the other side of the argument homie. And I only called you princess because your tone clearly went into Im better and smarter than you condescending and I hate that.

 

Were all equals here.

[seafoam1 1,878]

I believe it's very typical of fantasy players to fall in love with unproven rookies. It happens every year that people call rookies "studs" before they even play 1 game in the pros. Especially if they are drafted top 5.

 

And no RB in the league ran for more yards than Hunt last year. Is your point that no RB in the league was as good as Rudy Johnson, with his 4 yards per rush and 15-20 catches in the years he got 1400 yards rushing? Or are you saying that all backs are the same except for Barkley, the greatest NFL RB of all time?

 

And I'm only debating this topic, not calling out anyone's character.

[DrG 94]

A lot of NFL talent evaluators a lot smarter than I am are putting Barkleys talent as up there with Elliot and Gurley. That and what little Ive seen of him puts him in round 1 in redraft leagues for me coupled with the NYG effort to improve their line.

[seafoam1 1,878]

A lot of NFL talent evaluators a lot smarter than I am are putting Barkleys talent as up there with Elliot and Gurley. That and what little Ive seen of him puts him in round 1 in redraft leagues for me coupled with the NYG effort to improve their line.

If he were going to Philly or Dallas or Pitt in place of their current backs, I would draft Barkley high. But all I hear from NFL talent evaluators is that the giants oline is still bottom of the league this year. Plus with their QB being bottom of the barrel, just not feeling it. The odds of another RB from this draft being just as productive or better are good. Although one of my favorites, Michel, seems to have a knee issue. Bummer, but that is the life of a runningback.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

If he were going to Philly or Dallas or Pitt in place of their current backs, I would draft Barkley high. But all I hear from NFL talent evaluators is that the giants oline is still bottom of the league this year. Plus with their QB being bottom of the barrel, just not feeling it. The odds of another RB from this draft being just as productive or better are good. Although one of my favorites, Michel, seems to have a knee issue. Bummer, but that is the life of a runningback.

This is great.

 

This person likes Sony Michel more than Barkley. Youve only been bashing Barkley because of his situation but yet a 100% healthy Michel with the patriots???? How on earth could that be a better situation than Barkleys?

 

Have you ever watched the patriots play? Why would anyone target a RB from the patriots? Please enlighten me.

[seafoam1 1,878]

This is great.

 

This person likes Sony Michel more than Barkley. Youve only been bashing Barkley because of his situation but yet a 100% healthy Michel with the patriots???? How on earth could that be a better situation than Barkleys?

 

Have you ever watched the patriots play? Why would anyone target a RB from the patriots? Please enlighten me.

I saw when Dion Lewis was healthy with the Pats. He was awesome. But knee injuries got him. Too bad, but it happens to many backs.

 

And this is about fantasy football. Getting value in your draft is often important.

[DrG 94]

Sf1, who knows you may be right. But for me and looking at the other talent on the Giants offense that may limit the number of times he sees 8 in the box, Barkley looks like a 1 for me.

[tanatastic 2,061]

4 of the top 10 ppr RBs last year were rookies.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

4 of the top 10 ppr RBs last year were rookies.

 

Preach.

 

It's not crazy to think Barkley will be better than last year's rookies save for Kamara maybe. But I do see Barkley getting 40-50+ catches so its not out of the realm of possibility. He should be on the field all 3 downs right? If the giants are as bad as SF1 says they are then that receptions number could climb even higher if they're constantly playing from behind.

[seafoam1 1,878]

 

Preach.

 

It's not crazy to think Barkley will be better than last year's rookies save for Kamara maybe. But I do see Barkley getting 40-50+ catches so its not out of the realm of possibility. He should be on the field all 3 downs right? If the giants are as bad as SF1 says they are then that receptions number could climb even higher if they're constantly playing from behind.

Barkley could be really good. Last year manning had 19 passing TDs and 13 interceptions. They may want to run the ball a lot more.

 

It's shocking the Giants didn't take a QB in the draft. They can save $17 million against the cap if they release manning next spring. He is not their future, and now they don't have a QB they can sit for a year and maybe be ready next year. That $17 million is a lot of money they could have thrown at oline or defense in 2019..

[jrokh 567]

Don't worry Future HOF QB Eli Manning will do just fine this year. Not saying he will be the future but Davis Webb has a lot of buzz in the organization