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Self Defense Killing in Florida...Geeks got an opinion?

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Heard a blurb on this story on the national news today. I even have facebook friends calling for the shooter's head.

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From what little I've read it didn't sound like self-defense, it sounds like an overzealous self appointed watchdog who initiated a confrontation and shot an unarmed minor dead.

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"On Tuesday, a central Florida prosecutor also said that a grand jury will meet April 10 to consider evidence in the case. "

 

Justice Department is also looking into it.

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From what little I've read it didn't sound like self-defense, it sounds like an overzealous self appointed watchdog who initiated a confrontation and shot an unarmed minor dead.

 

I made the mistake of listening to the 911 tapes of the kid screaming for help. :(

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I made the mistake of listening to the 911 tapes of the kid screaming for help. :(

Sounded like he was pleading for his life and then BANG!!!

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From what little I've read it didn't sound like self-defense, it sounds like an overzealous self appointed watchdog who initiated a confrontation and shot an unarmed minor dead.

 

In one of the neighbor's calls to 911, you can hear the kid screaming for help in the background for a while, and then a gunshot.

 

This guy killed him in cold blood. He was probably standing/leaning over the kid for a while and made the conscious decision to shoot him. I think he should be facing murder charges.

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In one of the neighbor's calls to 911, you can hear the kid screaming for help in the background for a while, and then a gunshot.

 

This guy killed him in cold blood. He was probably standing/leaning over the kid for a while and made the conscious decision to shoot him. I think he should be facing murder charges.

 

He should be, how much of a threat to your life is a kid with skittles..

 

This story makes me sick to my stomach

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The key thing to me is that the 911 dispatcher told him to not go after the kid, the guy got out of the car and confronted him. The kid ended up dead.

 

To me, it is at least manslaughter. :dunno:

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Reverend Al is down in the F.L.A. so the shooter will be at least arraigned on murder charges. He'll get let off and the blame will fall squarely on the police, who failed to do a proper investigation. In the end, it will result in a lawsuit against the city and their police. Racism will be the reason the case was improperly investigated, some cops will get fired, some administrators will be fired, and they'll be a ton of protests when Zimmerman is let off.

 

Seriously, how many times have we seen/heard this story?

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I guess I don't understand the law, but if I shot someone, even if it was legitimately in self-defense, I would expect to be arrested until the police figured out what happened.

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The key thing to me is that the 911 dispatcher told him to not go after the kid, the guy got out of the car and confronted him. The kid ended up dead.

 

To me, it is at least manslaughter. :dunno:

Agreed, self-defense requires you to take all reasonable action to take yourself out of harms way without the use of force. Also, the force used has to be reasonable in proportion to the threat ... so a gun against an unarmed kid probably isn't reasonable.

 

I haven't listened to the tape, but from the comments here, it sounds like this could have been more sinister than manslaughter. Reminds me of the lyric "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die." This dude is probably a danger to do something like this again.

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Agreed, self-defense requires you to take all reasonable action to take yourself out of harms way without the use of force. Also, the force used has to be reasonable in proportion to the threat ... so a gun against an unarmed kid probably isn't reasonable.

 

I haven't listened to the tape, but from the comments here, it sounds like this could have been more sinister than manslaughter. Reminds me of the lyric "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die." This dude is probably a danger to do something like this again.

 

Guns don't kill people, idiots with guns kill people.

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Agreed, self-defense requires you to take all reasonable action to take yourself out of harms way without the use of force. Also, the force used has to be reasonable in proportion to the threat ... so a gun against an unarmed kid probably isn't reasonable.

 

I haven't listened to the tape, but from the comments here, it sounds like this could have been more sinister than manslaughter. Reminds me of the lyric "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die." This dude is probably a danger to do something like this again.

 

But but but the kid was black.

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I hope they do the right thing and prosecute that kid for negligent trespassing and throw the book at him. I'd go up to the coffin during the viewing and put another couple of bullets in his skull to make sure he wasn't a zombie. BLAM. BLAM. BLAM.

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Agreed, self-defense requires you to take all reasonable action to take yourself out of harms way without the use of force. Also, the force used has to be reasonable in proportion to the threat ... so a gun against an unarmed kid probably isn't reasonable.

 

 

That's one of the things making this case so interesting and controversial...Florida's 2005 "Stand Your Ground" law:

 

The law allows people to use deadly force away from their homes -- where such force has long been allowed -- if they have reasonable fear an assailant could seriously harm them or someone else.

 

It also eliminates a longstanding "duty to retreat" in the face of imminent harm, asserting that would-be crime victims have the right to "stand their ground" and "meet force with force" when attacked as long as they are in a place they have a right to be, are not engaged in unlawful activity and believe that their life and safety was in danger.

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Skittles and iced tea late at night. If the white guy didn't kill him, the cavity creeps would have.

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I have a real hard time believing it was self defense considering the desperate cries for help on the one recording before the gunshots.

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Reverend Al is down in the F.L.A. so the shooter will be at least arraigned on murder charges. He'll get let off and the blame will fall squarely on the police, who failed to do a proper investigation. In the end, it will result in a lawsuit against the city and their police. Racism will be the reason the case was improperly investigated, some cops will get fired, some administrators will be fired, and they'll be a ton of protests when Zimmerman is let off.

 

Seriously, how many times have we seen/heard this story?

 

This is the first time in memory I'd have to agree with Reverend Al. If this was a white kid, I'm guessing there would've been a faster investigation and I really doubt he'd have gotten shot in the first place. I know it's common knowledge around here that racism only exists when black people complain about racism ... but this looks awfully racist to me.

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That's one of the things making this case so interesting and controversial...Florida's 2005 "Stand Your Ground" law:

Interesting, but from my understanding this guy didn't just fail to retreat, he actually inserted himself into the situation against the warning of the dispatcher.

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From what little I've read it didn't sound like self-defense, it sounds like an overzealous self appointed watchdog who initiated a confrontation and shot an unarmed minor dead.

 

 

Yep, sure sounds that way. If that's true, I hope they give him life.

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I guess I don't understand the law, but if I shot someone, even if it was legitimately in self-defense, I would expect to be arrested until the police figured out what happened.

 

 

That's pretty standard....even just for a while until the police can talk with witnesses.

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Agreed, self-defense requires you to take all reasonable action to take yourself out of harms way without the use of force. Also, the force used has to be reasonable in proportion to the threat ... so a gun against an unarmed kid probably isn't reasonable.

 

I haven't listened to the tape, but from the comments here, it sounds like this could have been more sinister than manslaughter. Reminds me of the lyric "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die." This dude is probably a danger to do something like this again.

 

I view manslaughter as the absolute minimum.

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This is the first time in memory I'd have to agree with Reverend Al. If this was a white kid, I'm guessing there would've been a faster investigation and I really doubt he'd have gotten shot in the first place. I know it's common knowledge around here that racism only exists when black people complain about racism ... but this looks awfully racist to me.

 

But wasn't the shooter, Zimmerman, Hispanic or something? Sounds to me like the guy was an overzealous wannabe cop type.

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Interesting, but from my understanding this guy didn't just fail to retreat, he actually inserted himself into the situation against the warning of the dispatcher.

 

While stupid...it wasn't against the law to reject the dispatcher's advice. I ain't defending the guy, but the law is focked in who is protected and at what time. Who may be engaging in "self defense". A lot of the "facts" now known were not known, publicly at least, for weeks.

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But wasn't the shooter, Zimmerman, Hispanic or something? Sounds to me like the guy was an overzealous wannabe cop type.

 

On the tape they caught the guy mumbling about "f*cking coons" and I doubt he'd be following this kid around if he weren't black. I also think the police would've been a lot quicker in launching a formal investigation if they weren't dealing with a black teen.

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But wasn't the shooter, Zimmerman, Hispanic or something? Sounds to me like the guy was an overzealous wannabe cop type.

 

Zimmerman certainly isn't a Hispanic name:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerman

 

While stupid...it wasn't against the law to reject the dispatcher's advice. I ain't defending the guy, but the law is focked in who is protected and at what time. Who may be engaging in "self defense". A lot of the "facts" now known were not known, publicly at least, for weeks.

 

It is a stupid law. The law as I stated it does not create a duty to retreat, just to do what is reasonable under the circumstances. For example, if someone is coming at you with a knife, you don't have a duty to run so that you can get stabbed in the back.

 

But, when people hear "The Florida legislature passed a law that you don't have to retreat in public places to claim self-defense." It sets up an environment for bad things to happen. I don't think the law changed much, just the public perception of what the rules are. It almost sounds like Zimmerman was testing the limits of this law ...

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On the tape they caught the guy mumbling about "f*cking coons" and I doubt he'd be following this kid around if he weren't black. I also think the police would've been a lot quicker in launching a formal investigation if they weren't dealing with a black teen.

 

Meh. I'm chalking this up to someone just looking to kill another human being for the thrill of it. Not buying into the racism. I know a lot of people who are wannabes and trying to act like superheros all the time. Effing EMT, ambulance, volunteer firemen, etc. Strange breed of people.

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I really haven't heard anyone come to this guys defense other than his family. :dunno:

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If this guy did this to anyone here's kid, I imagine you would all be giving him the In The Bedroom treatment.

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If this guy did this to anyone here's kid, I imagine you would all be giving him the In The Bedroom treatment.

Watchyoutlakinbout Herbis? :unsure:

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Watchyoutlakinbout Herbis? :unsure:

 

IN THE BEDROOM SPOILER ALERT!!

 

In the movie In The Bedroom, a couple's son is killed by his girlfriends jealous ex boyfriend. The couple then conspires to kill the guy. There are a few people posting in this thread that have implied that we don't know what happened or that it may have been self defense. My post was refering the these responses, and my belief that they are total shiat.

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This is the first time in memory I'd have to agree with Reverend Al. If this was a white kid, I'm guessing there would've been a faster investigation and I really doubt he'd have gotten shot in the first place. I know it's common knowledge around here that racism only exists when black people complain about racism ... but this looks awfully racist to me.

Same here.

 

The media coverage of this on morning Joe on MSNBC was unreal today. THey did at least 30 minutes straight without a commercial. Never seen that happen. Joe was going focking nuts over this too.

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Same here.

 

The media coverage of this on morning Joe on MSNBC was unreal today. THey did at least 30 minutes straight without a commercial. Never seen that happen. Joe was going focking nuts over this too.

 

 

What the hell you watching MSNBC for?

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What the hell you watching MSNBC for?

:lol:

 

I am teaching my son about media bias each morning before he goes to school. EVERY TIME one of these clowns tries to explain sh1t on TV, I tell my son what they left out or how they are wrong. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Plus, I want to see Mika each day.

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I guess I don't understand the law, but if I shot someone, even if it was legitimately in self-defense, I would expect to be arrested until the police figured out what happened.

 

Exactly. Self defense is an affirmative defense. It doesn't mean you didn't commit manslaughter, it just excuses the commission of that crime. It is not the cops' place to decide whether self defense is justified. This guy definitely should have been arrested and then he could have tried to convince the DA to drop the charges. Which never would've happened.

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No doubt the gunmen is a doosh and completely out of bounds, but....

 

Why is THIS story getting so much attention ?

 

What makes it so special ?

 

Was the victim trespassing ?

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No doubt the gunmen is a doosh and completely out of bounds, but....

 

Why is THIS story getting so much attention ?

 

What makes it so special ?

 

Was the victim trespassing ?

 

The Trayvon Martin tragedy is shining a national spotlight on "stand your ground" laws in at least 21 states.

 

The laws —in places like Texas, Idaho, and Alaska —allow every day citizens to use deadly force against someone else if they fear for their life. They also say people do not have to retreat if threatened or attacked.

 

George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman in Sanford, Fla., fatally shot Martin as the 17-year-old was walking to his father's home from a 7-Eleven. Zimmerman told police he was attacked by Trayvon and acted in self-defense. He has not been arrested or charged. Civil rights groups are calling for Zimmerman's arrest, saying Martin was targeted because he was black. Zimmerman's father says he is Hispanic.

 

Police have said officers were prohibited from arresting Zimmerman because he claimed to have used "justifiable" force.

 

The case has triggered a wave of public outcry to change or repeal Florida's "stand your ground" law.

 

"You want to know how you can kill somebody legally in Florida?" says Arthur Hayhoe, executive director of the Florida Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. "Make sure you have no witnesses, hunt the person down and then say you feared for your life."

 

Hayhoe says he has about a dozen cases on his desk now similar to Trayvon's case. He says in those cases, gunmen say they were defending themselves and have not been charged, leaving grieving relatives to wonder why the shooters have not been charged.

 

Florida's "stand your ground" law emerged after a man shot and killed a burglar who officials say was trying to break into the man's RV in the aftermath of Hurricane Ivan in 2005. The man waited months before learning he would not be charged with murder.

 

The case inspired then-Florida state senator Durell Peaden to introduce a bill dealing with similar situations. Florida state representative Dennis Baxley, the bill's House sponsor, told USA TODAY the law empowers people to defend themselves and should not be challenged in the wake of the Trayvon Martin case.

 

"Every time you have an adverse incident, immediately the anti-gun faction will say this law is the problem," Baxley said, adding that violent crime in Florida has dropped since its implementation. "As public policy, it is fulfilling its purpose and working well. The perpetrators know everyone has the right to defend themselves. … I think that has been a strong deterrent."

 

Since the law was enacted in 2005, the number of justifiable homicides in Florida has skyrocketed, said state Sen. Oscar Braynon, who represents the area in Miami where Martin lived with his mother. In 2005, there were 43 such cases; in 2009, the last complete year available, there were 105, he said.

 

Nationally, justifiable homicides by private citizens have been slowly rising since 2005. The number in 2010, the last full year measured by FBI, showed 278 such killings, the most in 15 years. The FBI uses a more restrictive methodology than Florida, only counting those people who are slain during the commission of felony.

 

Baxley thinks the jump in justifiable homicides shows the law is working. "The perpetrator suffered instead of the person they were victimizing. … That's what those numbers mean," he said.

 

Some gun control advocates, including Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said the numbers underscore an increasingly aggressive mentality on the streets fueled in part by state laws, including Florida's, that afford shooters broader interpretations of self defense in violent encounters outside the home.

 

"It's part of this increasing effort to push more guns into more public places. This is the (National Rifle Association's) vision for America,'' Vice said, referring to the gun lobby's support of more permissive gun laws.

 

The NRA didn't immediately respond to requests for comment Wednesday.

 

Braynon has called for hearings or a select committee to clarify what constitutes self-defense under Florida's law. Florida Gov. Rick Scott said he supports a review of the law.

 

Florida does not track or keep statistics on cases where someone uses a "stand your ground" defense, said Bill Eddins, president of the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association. Based on speaking with prosecutors statewide, more people seem to use the defense, he said.

 

"It's been great for defense lawyers," said Richard Rosenbaum, a criminal defense attorney in Fort Lauderdale. "It has helped a lot of people get off on self-defense that would have been found guilty before 2005."

 

~usatoday.com

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I think another thing that makes this case. compelling is that it happened with a lot of people around and you have all the 911 tapes too that were publicly released. It's just shocking that such a brazen killing could happen like that.

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I think another thing that makes this case. compelling is that it happened with a lot of people around and you have all the 911 tapes too that were publicly released. It's just shocking that such a brazen killing could happen like that.

The 911 tapes certainly upped the ante, but the case was generating a lot of interest before they were released. Weeks went by before the public heard them.

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