Aliens vs religion

[naomi 343]

First off, you stated that Satan's motivation was to be like God? Where can this be found in the Bible? I'm guessing you think it can be found in Ezekiel 28? Where the prophet writes a lamentation about the King of Tyrus?

 

I get that in an arc sense, comparing scripture with scripture. But I read Ezekiel 28 since you brought it up, and then I read Matthew Henry's commentary on it (since I tend to get where he's coming from scripturally and appreciate how he expresses it). It's a good, thoughtful read.

 

Re: Christ as the bright and morning star and Lucifer ('light bearer') getting translated from day star- in Isaiah 14 it is not Christ being referenced but it makes sense (comparing with other scripture) it is what Christians understand as 'the' antichrist. A label they (not the bible, but Christians inspired by the biblical dynamic of antichrists) use...in recognizing prophecy of the false Messiah. He would be referred to that way there on out in Isaiah. A counterfeit day star. The end days figure in Revelation is given power by 'the dragon.' In the end of Revelation there's a reason Christ asserts: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." The counterfeit (Isaiah 14) will be defeated. One of the things we know about him is that he wants to be exalted above God.

 

There are verses that go into how pride foremost works corruption, and precipitates a fall. 'Satan' is referenced (via all the names the bible uses for the being) as falling down to the deepest depths, and also being 'cast down.' When Christ was tempted by the devil (and yeah, I figure you don't see that passage in the same way), the angle he worked was promising to him because it suited his own heart. The same with "you shall be as Gods." As an aside, that happens to be something a religion kicked off by the visit of a light bearing angel preaches to its adherents- the promise of literally becoming Gods.

 

So by character association and report:

"And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken." Job 38:15

 

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." John 12:31

 

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;'.." 2 Peter 2:4

 

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude:6

 

Through actions (contextualize this with all the verses that talk about the God or Prince of the world/his domain or kingdom on earth):

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." II Corinthians 4:4 (*later I'll get to the age/world note)

 

..."And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts." Mark 4:15

 

"But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" Matthew 12:24-26

 

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 2 Timothy 2:24-26

 

In other words he enjoys influence and seeks to enlarge it. He's naturally jealous of another possessing more power than himself.

 

Again, there is no fallen angel called Satan/Lucifer. Satan is an untranslated Hebrew word, not a proper name at all. The Hebrew word is not capitalized, and it means "adversary". Is "adversary" a name like John, Peter, Or Jesus for example? No, it's a noun that means opponent or enemy. Firstly, saint Jerome left this Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) untranslated and then capitalized it in his 4th century Roman Catholic commissioned Latin Bible(the Vulgate) translation 19 times to make it appear like the name of somebody. He translated it properly 8 times to adversary or withstand. The King James Bible translated the Latin Vulgate of Jerome into English, and did the same thing. Left the word satan untranslated 19 times on purpose and capitalized it to make it look like the name of some angel. The Greek New Testament word for "adversary" is Σατανᾶς(Satanas). It means adversary as well. The Hebrew word satan is used for many different adversaries throughout the Bible, as is the Greek word Satanas. It's not one guy, but many different guys depending on the scripture it is being used in.

 

We went over how the Hebrews would reference things by their attributes. I'm no Hebrew and Greek scholar (my dad basically is, but I couldn't in good conscious simply take his word, let alone yours, in this context) but I know enough to know there are slight marks that serve to differentiate root words in direction of the nuanced meaning sought. Translators took context into consideration. Personally I have more confidence in the Textus Receptus being sound- interpreted by people with a faithful ability to do 2 Tim. 2:15.

 

I'm not sure if you're really reading what I'm writing in response to you, because we also already went over how it's biblically sound to say there's more than one 'adversary' of Christ. There is also a chief adversary. I think that's what the TR translators were seeing too. There's one worthy of being percieved as 'the' adversary. It's why 1 Peter 5:8 is put the way it is.

 

1 Peter 5:8 is talking about the adversary of the Jewish Christians that Peter is writing to. Who was this adversary? The adversary is called the διάβολος(diabolos) which means slander or falsely accuse.

Here I have the same thought as above. People reflect his essence.

2 Tim 33 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderersδιάβολος(diabolos), without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

Just as the Jewish High Priest Ciaphas falsely accused the Christ, so Jewish men and their religious leaders falsely accused the Jewish Christians whom Peter was writing to. These devils(false accusers) were not some kind of fallen angel, but wicked men.

 

...So we have a 'prince of this world', there's one over a 'kingdom' in this world (we have a prince, and a principality)...this is the same one associated with all the names we've discussed about this being, and in that verse (which you're limiting to referencing religious Jewish leaders), it is telling us that while we don't struggle against flesh and blood, we do principalities and powers. I did read what you had to say about that.

 

You're left with a logical disconnect. One that's resolved by appreciating how other scriptures talk about kingdoms and principalities. Ciaphas to your definition would be flesh and blood, and the principalities and powers by your definition (which the verse says we do struggle against) Ciaphas would also belong to. Your take can't be the heart of what it's getting at.

 

In the book of Revelation, does the adversary(satan) have angels(messengers). Yes he does. But who is this great dragon adversary? Who was turned into the den of dragons? was it a bunch of angels? Or a bunch of wicked men in Jerusalem?

 

Jer 9:7 Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts:

 

“Behold, I will refine them and try them;

For how shall I deal with the daughter of My people?

8 Their tongue is an arrow shot out;

It speaks deceit;

One speaks peaceably to his neighbor with his mouth,

But in his heart he lies in wait.

9 Shall I not punish them for these things?” says the Lord.

“Shall I not avenge Myself on such a nation as this?”

10 I will take up a weeping and wailing for the mountains,

And for the dwelling places of the wilderness a lamentation,

Because they are burned up,

So that no one can pass through;

Nor can men hear the voice of the cattle.

Both the birds of the heavens and the beasts have fled;

They are gone.

 

11 “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins, a den of dragons.

I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.”

 

I'm honestly not sure what the point your making is here. Because that referenced men- it means Revelation prophecy is only doing so to? What about the spirit of the offenders drawing out the same (God-held) appreciation of the scene? It wouldn't be the first time. "Ye are of your father..."

 

2 Corinthians 4 does not use the Greek word Σατανᾶς(Satanas) anyplace at all. It never mentions satan at all? It says god of this αἰών(aiōn =age) age, not world. The King James Bible does not translate the Greek word αἰών(aiōn =age) properly, but the rest of the English Bible translations do. It's the God of this age(1st century) that was being spoken of by Paul. Paul lived in the 1st century, not the 21st century.

 

We've been over how the being is referred to in more than one way

 

My bet is that the thrust with αἰών being used was 'all generations of men.' You have a 'God' blinding men there. That was the point in bringing it up (there are many parallel verses toward that point).

 

If you were to sum up your simple reasoning of why you believe the being is only mythological, how would you put it? I get that you believe Romish translators oriented words toward association with a being they were simply appealing to the existence of. Is that it? Anything in the bible that lends itself to be taken that way is because of a heretical mysticism.

[naomi 343]

It's hard to discuss sound Biblical hermeneutics with a reformed Roman Catholic like naomi. She is my sister in Christ, but she also has been taught the same B.S. I was taught in an organized Protestant Church. I'm guessing naomi is also a futurist/dispensationalist, so she believes in a rapture and that Christ is actually going to set foot on the planet Earth again in his physical body, and take over the planet by killing billions of non-Christian people including the Devil and his other fallen angel minions. And then Christ will reign as king of the planet Earth, in a castle on the throne of David in Jerusalem, and all of the people Christ spares in his great war on the planet Earth will worship Christ in a rebuilt temple forevermore. But I don't want to put words in her mouth?

There's a lot wrong with this, but it can wait.

[Savage Beast 1]

There's a lot wrong with this, but it can wait.

 

As I said, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so what is your take on Biblical Eschatology(prophecy)? Are you a futurist/dispensationalist like 99.9% of all American Protestants? Or something Else?

 

I happen to be a full Preterist(from the Latin word "Prater" which means Past) myself. I believe that 100% of both Old and New Testament prophecy was fulfilled by the end of the 1st century AD.

[DankNuggs 305]

Holy cr@p people are still duking it out here. I posted op loaded....

 

. I wonder if religion is the great troll.

 

If anything, living on earth with free will is the heaven. People should support life because life is good. That includes treating people properly, it isn't a quid pro quo, it's in appreciation.

 

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[mobb_deep 917]

As I said, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so what is your take on Biblical Eschatology(prophecy)? Are you a futurist/dispensationalist like 99.9% of all American Protestants? Or something Else?

 

I happen to be a full Preterist(from the Latin word "Prater" which means Past) myself. I believe that 100% of both Old and New Testament prophecy was fulfilled by the end of the 1st century AD.

 

Would you consider yourself "Orthodox"?

[Savage Beast 1]

Would you consider yourself "Orthodox"?

 

I'm Orthodox as far as the gospel of Christ is concerned(Romans 1:15-17, Romans 10:8-13, Romans 16:24-27). After this, my doctrine greatly differs from Orthodoxy, because both Protestant and Roman Catholic "orthodoxy" comes directly from the Roman Catholic Catechism(the council of Trent), and I disagree with them on many of their doctrines outside of the gospel of Christ the Apostle Paul preached to both the 1st century Jews and Gentiles.

 

But as far as the "good gods vs evil gods" nonsense that the Persian Zoroaster taught, that the Hebrews heard and adopted during their Babylonian captivity from around 587-538 BC I don't believe in this nonsense. Zoroastrianism was greatly incorporated into the Hebrews culture during this time, which is why you will see the shift from the Torah's message of there is onlyONE GOD, to Zoroaster's ideas that the Creator Ahura Mazda is all good, and no evil originates from him. Thus, in Zoroastrianism good and evil have distinct sources, with evil (druj) trying to destroy the creation of Mazda (asha), and good trying to sustain it. Sound familiar? The Hebrews shifted from the Torah of Moses, to Zoroaster's ideas of there being a good vs evil battle of the gods. The good being God, and the evil being the devil. But this did not come from God, like the Torah of Moses did, this came from the Hebrews incorporating Zoroaster's ideas into their culture. This is what gave birth to the non canonized book of Enoch(written around 300 BC), which is considered a Pseudepigrapha text(spurious writings, especially writings falsely attributed to biblical characters or times), and even Jude uses a line from the book of Enoch.

 

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

Enoch 1:9 "And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

 

And the book of Enoch is where the new testament authors got their mythological angel names from. The book of Enoch was considered scripture by many early Roman Catholic Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century "Epistle of Barnabus" makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture".

 

Enoch 9:1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being 2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. 3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause 4 before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the 5 ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all 6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which 7 men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates.

 

I think these 4 guys from the book of Enoch Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel really are the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turles, right?

 

 

 

Why does the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) not appear even one time in the Torah of Moses? How could the man responsible for writing the first 5 books of the Bible, and the Law, be ignorant of a fallen angel named Satan if he existed? How is this possible? I can't get one Protestant or Catholic to answer this one for me except to say that the "serpent" in the Torah of Moses is another name for the fallen angel Satan. Really??????? This is simply

 

Men are often called to be as or behave as "serpents", "vipers", and "dragons" in the Bible, but "angels" never are. And remember, the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ (mal'ak = angel) does not ever mean celestial or spiritual being, it means messenger or ambassador. And sometimes being called a "serpent" in the scriptures is not a bad thing at all. Serpent like men can be crafty and wise in both bad and good ways as these scriptures will show.

 

Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. 17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

 

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; 5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

 

Psalm 140:1 Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; 2 Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war. 3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah. 4 Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from the violent man; who have purposed to overthrow my goings.

 

Micah 7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf. 17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

Matt 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

 

Matt 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

 

Matt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

 

Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

Jer 9:11 And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.

 

Jer 10: 20 My tabernacle is spoiled, and all my cords are broken: my children are gone forth of me, and they are not: there is none to stretch forth my tent any more, and to set up my curtains. 21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered. 22 Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.

 

So as you can plainly see, It's men and nations of men that are the serpents, vipers, and dragons in the Bible. Not some mythological fallen angels and their leader Satan/Lucifer.

 

 

Jer 51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come. 34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.

 

Ezekiel:29:1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, in the twelfth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt: 3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself. 4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.

[Little Rusty 17]

Anybody read any good books lately ?

 

 

 

I'll have to read this all someday.

[naomi 343]

As I said, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so what is your take on Biblical Eschatology(prophecy)? Are you a futurist/dispensationalist like 99.9% of all American Protestants? Or something Else?

 

I happen to be a full Preterist(from the Latin word "Prater" which means Past) myself. I believe that 100% of both Old and New Testament prophecy was fulfilled by the end of the 1st century AD.

 

I don't believe all biblical prophecy is fulfilled. The only way I would identify with a camp (outside of 'futurist'...that's generally applicable enough) is if what I'm impressed by from reading the bible and what it recognizes are entirely complimentary. I haven't sought to camp myself though. My belief is that we're living in the age Christ was speaking about when he talked about the end coming soon/at hand. In the context of prophecy being fulfilled, anything after Christ's life on earth is soon, as there's just one event left, the final judgement. It's an era of x amount of time, but we know there isn't prophecy in between that's left to be fulfilled first.