Generic Self Defense Question - Geared for everyone....

[BLS 313]

I made a post on a gun forum recently where I stated that I advocate, as an instructor, that if you're carrying a gun, and don't have to get involved in a situation (IE, there's someone stabbing people in a mall), it MAY be prudent to just leave and help be a good witness.

 

My reasoning is simple. While you can legally intervene, there are more things to consider than most people think about on the surface.

 

Does this person have 'friends' helping him that you haven't ID'd?

What if this person manages to get the upper hand on you, even if you're carrying a gun? Are you prepared to die?

What if you miss and hit someone unintentionally?

What if the Police arrive and see you shooting at someone, and mistake you for the threat and drop you?

What if you are permanently injured? Would you lose your house? Vehicles?

 

I also told a story of how I tried to intervene (years ago) in a domestic violence situation where a man was seriously beating up a woman in a bar in Hudson, WI.

As I pulled him away from her, and pushed him against the wall, to my surprise she knocked me out cold with a full beer bottle and I got stitches to prove it.

 

My point in the post was sometimes it's better to MYOB (mind your own biz).

While you might be able to stop a stabbing spree and help others, you are risking a lot.

 

I'm curious what you guys think about the argument i make. Even as non-gun owners, or gun owners, I don't care. I'm curious what your everyday person thinks.

 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

You do have to be aware that no good deed goes unpunished. Intervention does require consideration as you suggest

[Cdub100 3,366]

I made a post on a gun forum recently where I stated that I advocate, as an instructor, that if you're carrying a gun, and don't have to get involved in a situation (IE, there's someone stabbing people in a mall), it MAY be prudent to just leave and help be a good witness.

 

My reasoning is simple. While you can legally intervene, there are more things to consider than most people think about on the surface.

 

Does this person have 'friends' helping him that you haven't ID'd?

What if this person manages to get the upper hand on you, even if you're carrying a gun? Are you prepared to die?

What if you miss and hit someone unintentionally?

What if the Police arrive and see you shooting at someone, and mistake you for the threat and drop you?

What if you are permanently injured? Would you lose your house? Vehicles?

 

I also told a story of how I tried to intervene (years ago) in a domestic violence situation where a man was seriously beating up a woman in a bar in Hudson, WI.

As I pulled him away from her, and pushed him against the wall, to my surprise she knocked me out cold with a full beer bottle and I got stitches to prove it.

 

My point in the post was sometimes it's better to MYOB (mind your own biz).

While you might be able to stop a stabbing spree and help others, you are risking a lot.

 

I'm curious what you guys think about the argument i make. Even as non-gun owners, or gun owners, I don't care. I'm curious what your everyday person thinks.

 

 

If you can watch someone getting stabbed to death and just walk away despite having the tactical and training advantage to help them. I'm not sure what to say to that person as a human other than I think it's a selfish argument based in self preservation and cowardice.

[BLS 313]

 

If you can watch someone getting stabbed to death and just walk away despite having the tactical and training advantage to help them. I'm not sure what to say to that person as a human other than I think it's a selfish argument based in self preservation and cowardice.

 

That was the general thought tossed towards me numerous times.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

 

If you can watch someone getting stabbed to death and just walk away despite having the tactical and training advantage to help them. I'm not sure what to say to that person as a human other than I think it's a selfish argument based in self preservation and cowardice.

I think you missed the part where he said you don't have to get involved as there was immediate risk of harm. The stabbing was something that he said required action.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

 

That was the general thought tossed towards me numerous times.

Well I misread that one. If you are questioning whether you get involved in a case of immediate harm, then why carry? Sounds like guys compensating for a small peanus

[frank 2,143]

If you're intervening to help someone else, it isn't "self" defense.

[BLS 313]

Well I misread that one. If you are questioning whether you get involved in a case of immediate harm, then why carry? Sounds like guys compensating for a small peanus

 

I'm lost on your point PFB. I carry to protect myself and my family. Not everybody.

But I AM curious if people think that's selfish.

[Cdub100 3,366]

 

That was the general thought tossed towards me numerous times.

 

So if you've received it many times what's your question? Or are you just looking for a opinion that matches your own?

[BLS 313]

 

If you can watch someone getting stabbed to death and just walk away despite having the tactical and training advantage to help them. I'm not sure what to say to that person as a human other than I think it's a selfish argument based in self preservation and cowardice.

 

What if my family is with me? Do I still intervene? What happens if this person gets the best of me and then turns his aggression towards my family?

[BLS 313]

 

So if you've received it many times what's your question? Or are you just looking for a opinion that matches your own?

 

No, I'm curious what everybody thinks. There's no right or wrong answer. I'm just curious.

[GobbleDog 815]

I'm curious what your everyday person thinks.

 

I'm your everyday person. I think people who carry guns in public are mostly in love with the idea of feeling power. Protecting themselves or other people is the last thing on their minds (even though it's their justification for doing something so stupid). It's true with the few friends I know who regularly carry. And those guys are total idiots who shouldn't even own guns, let alone carry in public.

 

Interestingly, it's legal to open carry in Alabama. When I visited my in-laws recently, I noticed a bunch of stores in town with signs in the window saying "No open carry in this establishment!" Hardly anyone does it anyway. My (pro-gun) mother-in-law once commented "I saw a scumbag in the grocery store the other day with a gun and I hated it!" It's so ironic. A law they would defend with their last breath, and yet nobody actually wants it. It's just the principle of the thing. Idiots.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

 

I'm lost on your point PFB. I carry to protect myself and my family. Not everybody.

But I AM curious if people think that's selfish.

If you walk away when you could help someone in dire circumstances then I find that selfish. We all have responsibilities to do the right thing. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I was carrying, someone was in dire need and I just walked away because it "didn't involve me or my family"

[BLS 313]

 

I'm your everyday person. I think people who carry guns in public are mostly in love with the idea of feeling power. Protecting themselves or other people is the last thing on their minds. It's true with the few friends I know who regularly carry. And those guys are total idiots who shouldn't even own guns, let alone carry in public.

 

Interestingly, it's legal to open carry in Alabama. When I visited my in-laws recently, I noticed a bunch of stores in town with signs in the window saying "No open carry in this establishment!" Hardly anyone does it anyway. My (pro-gun) mother-in-law once commented "I saw a scumbag in the grocery store the other day with a gun and I hated it!" It's so ironic. A law they would defend with their last breath, and yet nobody actually wants it. It's just the principle of the thing. Idiots.

 

And yet my post should indicate that this is NOT the reason I carry. I hope to fuckin god I never have to pull it, let alone use the damn thing.

The rest of your post went off the plantation.

[BLS 313]

If you walk away when you could help someone in dire circumstances then I find that selfish. We all have responsibilities to do the right thing. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I was carrying, someone was in dire need and I just walked away because it "didn't involve me or my family"

 

Fair enough. Let's dissect that.

What if you're wife and children were with; does it change your mind about what you'd do?

[Cdub100 3,366]

If you're intervening to help someone else, it isn't "self" defense.

 

Correct, but there's a duty to rescue in some states and that duty a legal mandate, but more importantly a moral one..

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

 

Fair enough. Let's dissect that.

What if you're wife and children were with; does it change your mind about what you'd do?

Not "what" I would do, but maybe "how" I would do it. I would likely tell them to get out of harm's way and call the police while I addressed the situation. No need to have them be in danger and you want the authorities there.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

 

I'm your everyday person. I think people who carry guns in public are mostly in love with the idea of feeling power. Protecting themselves or other people is the last thing on their minds (even though it's their justification for doing something so stupid). It's true with the few friends I know who regularly carry. And those guys are total idiots who shouldn't even own guns, let alone carry in public.

 

Interestingly, it's legal to open carry in Alabama. When I visited my in-laws recently, I noticed a bunch of stores in town with signs in the window saying "No open carry in this establishment!" Hardly anyone does it anyway. My (pro-gun) mother-in-law once commented "I saw a scumbag in the grocery store the other day with a gun and I hated it!" It's so ironic. A law they would defend with their last breath, and yet nobody actually wants it. It's just the principle of the thing. Idiots.

There was a doosh that used to come into the Waffle House when i worked there. Huge ass revel flag flying off the back of his truck. Always had a hog leg strapped to him.

 

Just the most insufferable arrogant peacock doosh I ever saw. Always seemed half drunk, never quite starting sh!t, but always being a belligerent ass.

 

If someone had actually come in to rob the place, One of two things would happen. Most likely is that guy would cover under a table and never even draw his gun. Or he would try to be a hero and start a crossfire that gets people killed.

 

As to BLS, question, Id say it depends.

 

I see a mugging going down? Im probably not gonna intervene. A second guy with a gun just makes the likelihood someone gets killed more likely in that situation. Give the guy your wallet and move on.

 

Some guy running through the mall stabbing people, like your hypothetical poses? If I can get a reasonably safe, clean shot, Im taking it. If I just stand there and watch innocents get stabbed when I have the ability to prevent it, Im a coward. Id rather risk the things you mentioned than live with that.

 

Rape? I intervene, If I can do so safely without risking shooting the prospective victim.

 

But your question kind of defeats the good guy with a gun narrative. I imagine in many if not most cases, gun owners choose to mind their own and move along.

 

I think that a concealed carry permit should come with mandatory levels of training, and also come with a duty to help others when safely possible. And also come with a liability shield of some kind for when such interventions dont work out.

 

Basically, a cc permit holder should be, in my mind, treated somewhat like a cop.

[Cdub100 3,366]

 

What if my family is with me? Do I still intervene? What happens if this person gets the best of me and then turns his aggression towards my family?

 

Sigh... okay so in your hypothetical with additional hypothetical's I dunno man, maybe godzilla shows up or Superman... Or maybe if someone is getting stabbed, your wifes boyfriend will take care of it while you get your wifes kids to safety.

 

In your hypothetical your wife's boyfriend has a CCW which means he has had training and probably shot a gun more than once. He has every advantage to help a person in need. Failure to do so is a break in the social contract.

[cyclone24 1,787]

I always say I have only one job...be home safe for my 3 girls...not my problem. Probably a good reason you're getting stabbed.

[BLS 313]

 

Correct, but there's a duty to rescue in some states and that duty a legal mandate, but more importantly a moral one..

 

I'd love to see the statute of ANY state that suggests that a civilian has a LEGAL obligation to help another civilian.

[Voltaire 4,550]

 

I'd love to see the statute of ANY state that suggests that a civilian has a LEGAL obligation to help another civilian.

 

Jerry Seinfeld and friends follwed your advice in the final episode of the final season of the series and wound up in prison for it. So maybe there is.

 

Anyway, I've dodged the question.

 

I intervene. I've done so a 4-5 times in China over the years regarding domestic disputes, haven't suffered any bad consequences or it. Of course there's no guns over here to worry about and the locals are smaller than me. Meh. I'd likely do the same thing in the US.

[BLS 313]

There was a doosh that used to come into the Waffle House when i worked there. Huge ass revel flag flying off the back of his truck. Always had a hog leg strapped to him.

 

Just the most insufferable arrogant peacock doosh I ever saw. Always seemed half drunk, never quite starting sh!t, but always being a belligerent ass.

 

If someone had actually come in to rob the place, One of two things would happen. Most likely is that guy would cover under a table and never even draw his gun. Or he would try to be a hero and start a crossfire that gets people killed.

 

As to BLS, question, Id say it depends.

 

I see a mugging going down? Im probably not gonna intervene. A second guy with a gun just makes the likelihood someone gets killed more likely in that situation. Give the guy your wallet and move on.

 

Some guy running through the mall stabbing people, like your hypothetical poses? If I can get a reasonably safe, clean shot, Im taking it. If I just stand there and watch innocents get stabbed when I have the ability to prevent it, Im a coward. Id rather risk the things you mentioned than live with that.

 

Rape? I intervene, If I can do so safely without risking shooting the prospective victim.

 

But your question kind of defeats the good guy with a gun narrative. I imagine in many if not most cases, gun owners choose to mind their own and move along.

 

I think that a concealed carry permit should come with mandatory levels of training, and also come with a duty to help others when safely possible. And also come with a liability shield of some kind for when such interventions dont work out.

 

Basically, a cc permit holder should be, in my mind, treated somewhat like a cop.

 

Very interesting analysis.

[BLS 313]

 

Sigh... okay so in your hypothetical with additional hypothetical's I dunno man, maybe godzilla shows up or Superman... Or maybe if someone is getting stabbed, your wifes boyfriend will take care of it while you get your wifes kids to safety.

 

In your hypothetical your wife's boyfriend has a CCW which means he has had training and probably shot a gun more than once. He has every advantage to help a person in need. Failure to do so is a break in the social contract.

 

Well, it's not hypothetical. It happened here in MN at the Crossroads Mall in St. Cloud in September of 2016.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

 

Jerry Seinfeld and friends follwed your advice in the final episode of the final season of the series and wound up in prison for it. So maybe there is.

 

Anyway, I've dodged the question.

 

I intervene. I've done so a 4-5 times in China over the years regarding domestic disputes, haven't suffered any bad consequences or it. Of course there's no guns over here to worry about and the locals are smaller than me. Meh. I'd likely do the same thing in the US.

The first apartment we had here, the neighbor used to smack his wife around pretty regularly. Chinese construction being what it is, my roommate at the time and I heard it a lot. Saw it once or twice waiting for the elevator.

 

My roommate would start to get worked up and do something about it. Id say, no way man. First of all, if you intervene, first thing that will happen is that SHE will turn on you and take his side. Then you get to talk to Chinese cops, which never ends well.

 

Hell, at the time, domestic violence wasnt even illegal. They made it so my second year here.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,552]

You either do or you don't. There's not all this pondering that goes on. On the 9/11 flight there was, but that's the rarest of situations. Think the Coward deputy in Florida ever thought he would wuss out? He was never tested probably. Maybe that's why it's hard to take someone serious who's only experience is the classroom.

[wiffleball 4,629]

yeah,seriously, watch out for the girl. Totally effed up, but pretty common to see her come to her man's defense -violently.

 

Agree with you BLS. If for no other reason than that and civil suits. The mere fact that you have a job and the white trash beating up his girlfriend doesn't is enough to swing a few members on the jury.

[NorthernVike 2,079]

 

Very interesting analysis.

There's no way every CC holder should be held to the standard of a cop. That's just stupid and you know it.

[BunnysBastatrds 1,902]

Carried a conceal once in my entire life. Right after Katrina. For two days. My Dad told me, you're to smart for that. And I believed him. The years prior in the 80's proved that. I proved my metal. Don't need a gun, just your wits.

 

Went to every major housing project with an attitude, clip board, and camera. Bad guys kill bad guys. Bad guys have cheap weapons. Bad guys kill friends and turf monger. Usually at night. I was there early while the bad guys were sleeping. Should have been shot dead early on. Pretty white boy invading big ganster hoods? Scared fawking shitless. But did it without a gun or weapon.

 

Don't need a weapon. Unless you're half retarded.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

There's no way every CC holder should be held to the standard of a cop. That's just stupid and you know it.

I meant a cop in terms of liability shield more than anything. If a cc holder makes a reasonable attempt to safely prevent a violent crime, he would be shielded from liability for any injury caused, much like a cop would.

 

And yeah. I have zero problem with holding a cc holder to some lower level of responsibility to help. Just like a doctor cant walk past someone with arterial spurt and say, fock it, he could have aids.

 

You want the power of a gun? Take the responsibility that comes with that, like Spider-Man says.

 

But bottom line, this whole conversation skirts around the real problem with our society in the first place. Namely, that it isnt a society, it is a mob of people who dont give a fock about anyone else.

[shorepatrol 1,734]

[joneo 529]

I made a post on a gun forum recently where I stated that I advocate, as an instructor, that if you're carrying a gun, and don't have to get involved in a situation (IE, there's someone stabbing people in a mall), it MAY be prudent to just leave and help be a good witness.

 

My reasoning is simple. While you can legally intervene, there are more things to consider than most people think about on the surface.

 

Does this person have 'friends' helping him that you haven't ID'd?

What if this person manages to get the upper hand on you, even if you're carrying a gun? Are you prepared to die?

What if you miss and hit someone unintentionally?

What if the Police arrive and see you shooting at someone, and mistake you for the threat and drop you?

What if you are permanently injured? Would you lose your house? Vehicles?

 

I also told a story of how I tried to intervene (years ago) in a domestic violence situation where a man was seriously beating up a woman in a bar in Hudson, WI.

As I pulled him away from her, and pushed him against the wall, to my surprise she knocked me out cold with a full beer bottle and I got stitches to prove it.

 

My point in the post was sometimes it's better to MYOB (mind your own biz).

While you might be able to stop a stabbing spree and help others, you are risking a lot.

 

I'm curious what you guys think about the argument i make. Even as non-gun owners, or gun owners, I don't care. I'm curious what your everyday person thinks.

 

I'm in total agreement with this. That woman that hit you is something they warned us about in training. It happens a lot. Of course you did the right thing, but be prepared. I was in a bad situation where I was called to a domestic and was the first to respond. (Mom, Dad, 13 year-old son). Dad was drunk and the aggressor. I ended up wrestling with him in the kitchen and was on top of him. I got a bad feeling as training kicked in and I realized this was the most dangerous room to be in. Fortunately, neither the woman or kid attacked me but it was a really crappy feeling. I had to reassess the situation after to see what I could have done better and I couldn't come up with a better idea than the way I handled it.

 

As far as a witness, mentally step back and absorb what's going on around you. Look for other attackers. Look at identifying features of attacker. Is anyone calling 911? If not, do so.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I think its like medical personnel being called on a flight. I hesitate for a few seconds to see if anyone else steps up to the plate, but if someone is in dire need and you are trained to help, you should. Of course you need to be prepared for the consequences of your action, but those are most likely better than inaction.

[MDC 5,874]

I made a post on a gun forum recently where I stated that I advocate, as an instructor, that if you're carrying a gun, and don't have to get involved in a situation (IE, there's someone stabbing people in a mall), it MAY be prudent to just leave and help be a good witness.

 

My reasoning is simple. While you can legally intervene, there are more things to consider than most people think about on the surface.

 

Does this person have 'friends' helping him that you haven't ID'd?

What if this person manages to get the upper hand on you, even if you're carrying a gun? Are you prepared to die?

What if you miss and hit someone unintentionally?

What if the Police arrive and see you shooting at someone, and mistake you for the threat and drop you?

What if you are permanently injured? Would you lose your house? Vehicles?

 

I also told a story of how I tried to intervene (years ago) in a domestic violence situation where a man was seriously beating up a woman in a bar in Hudson, WI.

As I pulled him away from her, and pushed him against the wall, to my surprise she knocked me out cold with a full beer bottle and I got stitches to prove it.

 

My point in the post was sometimes it's better to MYOB (mind your own biz).

While you might be able to stop a stabbing spree and help others, you are risking a lot.

 

I'm curious what you guys think about the argument i make. Even as non-gun owners, or gun owners, I don't care. I'm curious what your everyday person thinks.

 

The bold part: Dont most of these questions apply when youre making the decision whether to draw a gun in your own defense or that of your family, too?

[penultimatestraw 473]

The bold part: Dont most of these questions apply when youre making the decision whether to draw a gun in your own defense or that of your family, too?

Exactly. And most of them can’t be answered quickly/definitively enough in a life-or-death situation.

[5-Points 2,715]

I don't have a ccw permit but if I did I wouldn't pull my gun unless my, or somebody else's, life was in imminent danger. That's not to say I wouldn't intervene without deadly force if I thought the situation warranted action of some sort but, in general, I'm inclined to MMOB. Too many litigious motherfockers nowadays.

[shotsup 830]

If you are looking for the everyday guy you are in the wrong place brother B

 

 

CALIBER

[jerryskids 5,149]

I don't own a gun so I can't address that. As for general intervention... I've never physically had to do it but in large part that is because I seem to have a gift for diffusing situations; I did it a bunch when I was younger. A big part of it is speaking like you are in charge, as I'm sure any LEO knows. I'm also trained in martial arts and while not currently practicing, I like my chances in a fight.

 

Regular fight, I would MMOB. Guy lying unconscious on the ground while getting beaten to death, I couldn't live with myself if I watched him die. I'd use my "I'm in charge" voice and if that didn't work, well, I'd probably do my best to stop it.

[IGotWorms 3,297]

Generally best to stay out unless you truly have to intervene for someones physical safety. Keep in mind youll probably just make things worse and could become a target yourself.

[BLS 313]

There's no way every CC holder should be held to the standard of a cop. That's just stupid and you know it.

Obviously. His post is ignorant.