IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 19, 2014 If you find anything Naomi says offensive, you need to get out more. Or maybe people use that term "offensive" too much, I can't think of anything that would offend me. Fair enough. I just don't appreciate the insinuation that myself or others in this thread value the life of an abortion doctor more highly than the life of a Jewish person. Murder is murder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mungwater 588 Posted June 19, 2014 Fair enough. I just don't appreciate the insinuation that myself or others in this thread some value the life of an abortion doctor more highly than the life of a Jewish person. Murder is murder. I agree, unless your doing a boondock saints and killing bad folks, murder is no bueno Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted June 19, 2014 Fair enough. I just don't appreciate the insinuation that myself or others in this thread value the life of an abortion doctor more highly than the life of a Jewish person. Murder is murder. Murder is murder....then why is going after some folks involved with murder sad and pointless? If the US went after some 89 year old who had until then evaded investigators for his involvement with 9-11, would you still believe it would be sad and pointless? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 19, 2014 It's an interesting conundrum. But there is no statute of limitations on murder and this fella might have murdered hundreds or more. So I'm ok with him getting tried even though it does seem sorta sad and pointless to go after someone who is 89. Bump Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted June 19, 2014 Bump Yes, you're "ok" with him getting tried......even though it's sad and pointless. Sooooo.....I'll ask again. Why is going after some folks involved with murder sad and pointless? If the US went after some 89 year old who until then evaded investigators for his involvement with 9-11, would you still believe it would be sad and pointless? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 19, 2014 Yes, you're "ok" with him getting tried......even though it's sad and pointless. Sooooo.....I'll ask again. Why is going after some folks involved with murder sad and pointless? If the US went after some 89 year old who until then evaded investigators for his involvement with 9-11, would you still believe it would be sad and pointless? So your hypothetical would be a 17 year old involved in 9/11 who is then apprehended and tried for murder in 2073 when he is 89, right? I would agree with the prosecution but I'd think it would "sad and pointless" in the sense that our 89 year old former jihadist is almost certainly not going to harm another person in his few remaining years and will basically just be sent to prison hospice to die. Not sad in the sense that I feel bad for the guy, sad in the sense that while it is a justifiable punishable it ultimately accomplishes nothing. Does that clear things up for you? If not mind breaking down for me exactly what it is that you're taking issue with here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted June 19, 2014 So your hypothetical would be a 17 year old involved in 9/11 who is then apprehended and tried for murder in 2073 when he is 89, right? I would agree with the prosecution but I'd think it would "sad and pointless" in the sense that our 89 year old former jihadist is almost certainly not going to harm another person in his few remaining years and will basically just be sent to prison hospice to die. Not sad in the sense that I feel bad for the guy, sad in the sense that while it is a justifiable punishable it ultimately accomplishes nothing. Does that clear things up for you? If not mind breaking down for me exactly what it is that you're taking issue with here? To me, Lady Justice isn't balancing past outcomes vs. future probabilities. She isn't blindfolded because she has to guess what any of us are going to do, she is blind to everything except the force the evidence exerts on her scale. It's irrelevant that he's 89. It's irrelevant what he might or might not do in the future. He has been accused of committing a crime and will be subject to the same process as everyone else. The system....however inefficient.....is working. I just don't see anything sad and pointless about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 5,192 Posted June 19, 2014 To me, Lady Justice isn't balancing past outcomes vs. future probabilities. She isn't blindfolded because she has to guess what any of us are going to do, she is blind to everything except the force the evidence exerts on her scale. It's irrelevant that he's 89. It's irrelevant what he might or might not do in the future. He has been accused of committing a crime and will be subject to the same process as everyone else. The system....however inefficient.....is working. I just don't see anything sad and pointless about it. I disagree. I'm not a fan of zero tolerance laws in general. Our "three strikes" drug laws are a joke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 19, 2014 To me, Lady Justice isn't balancing past outcomes vs. future probabilities. She isn't blindfolded because she has to guess what any of us are going to do, she is blind to everything except the force the evidence exerts on her scale. It's irrelevant that he's 89. It's irrelevant what he might or might not do in the future. He has been accused of committing a crime and will be subject to the same process as everyone else. The system....however inefficient.....is working. I just don't see anything sad and pointless about it. We aren't arguing, I agree with everything you said right up until the last line. And ultimately it doesn't matter because I still agree he should be prosecuted. So I'm sorry I got your panties in a twist with the "sad and pointless" phrase but I think we can move on now, agreed? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted June 20, 2014 I disagree. I'm not a fan of zero tolerance laws in general. Our "three strikes" drug laws are a joke. I agree with that. I shouldn't have generalized. But in this particular instance, the system is working. We aren't arguing, I agree with everything you said right up until the last line. And ultimately it doesn't matter because I still agree he should be prosecuted. So I'm sorry I got your panties in a twist with the "sad and pointless" phrase but I think we can move on now, agreed? Just saw a story about a father who forgot to drop his baby off at daycare. Kid was inside a hot car all day while dad was at work and the kid died. Now the father will be charged with murder. I think that's a case that is sad and pointless. If it was truly a mistake, he'll have to live with that for the rest of his life. We just have differing views of what's sad and pointless....I think prosecuting a father who made a terrible mistake which cost his son his life is sad and pointless. You think that way about Nazi war criminals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 20, 2014 I agree with that. I shouldn't have generalized. But in this particular instance, the system is working. Just saw a story about a father who forgot to drop his baby off at daycare. Kid was inside a hot car all day while dad was at work and the kid died. Now the father will be charged with murder. I think that's a case that is sad and pointless. If it was truly a mistake, he'll have to live with that for the rest of his life. We just have differing views of what's sad and pointless....I think prosecuting a father who made a terrible mistake which cost his son his life is sad and pointless. You think that way about Nazi war criminals. Also a highly doubt that guy is being charged with "murder" since that requires intent. If he is then that's a severe overcharge since it's clearly an issue of manslaughter unless it was somehow so egregious as to exhibit deprived indifference for the value of human life Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Googballz 39 Posted June 20, 2014 Also a highly doubt that guy is being charged with "murder" since that requires intent. If he is then that's a severe overcharge since it's clearly an issue of manslaughter unless it was somehow so egregious as to exhibit deprived indifference for the value of human life Guy was at Auschwitz. Pretty sure stacking people in ovens exhibits deprived indifference for the value of human life. But that's just me. You seem to think it doesn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted June 20, 2014 Also a highly doubt that guy is being charged with "murder" since that requires intent. If he is then that's a severe overcharge since it's clearly an issue of manslaughter unless it was somehow so egregious as to exhibit deprived indifference for the value of human life ATLANTA-- A Georgia father was booked on murder charges Thursday after leaving his son to die in a hot car all day. Justin Ross Harris, 34, of Marietta, Ga., went to work at around 9 a.m. Wednesday with his 22-month-old son in the back seat of his car, forgetting to drop him off at day care. As he was driving home around 4 p.m., he noticed that his son was still in his child seat, unresponsive He pulled over at a shopping center parking lot and tried to perform cardio-pulmonary resuscitation, but the child, whose name was not released, was pronounced dead at the scene. "It's tough to watch anyone pass but especially a small child," one witness said. Police had to restrain Harris because he was so distraught. Harris is being held without bond in Cobb County Jail on charges of murder and cruelty to children, also a felony, according to online records from the Cobb County Sheriff's Office. http://www.wfmynews2.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/18/hot-car-child-dies-cobb-county-georgia-ga-akers-mill/10805865/ This kind of thing happens. Maybe the guy is a really bad dude and should go away for a long time. Or maybe he's just over tired, over stressed, and completely blanked for a few hours and it cost his child his life. Who cares what the charges are. The point is he could be looking at serious jail time for something that was maybe just a mistake. The state could never punish a father as severely as this guy's conscience will over the years. Sad and pointless.....like your Nazi war criminal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 20, 2014 Guy was at Auschwitz. Pretty sure stacking people in ovens exhibits deprived indifference for the value of human life. But that's just me. You seem to think it doesn't. Wow you're dumb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 20, 2014 http://www.wfmynews2.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/18/hot-car-child-dies-cobb-county-georgia-ga-akers-mill/10805865/ This kind of thing happens. Maybe the guy is a really bad dude and should go away for a long time. Or maybe he's just over tired, over stressed, and completely blanked for a few hours and it cost his child his life. Who cares what the charges are. The point is he could be looking at serious jail time for something that was maybe just a mistake. The state could never punish a father as severely as this guy's conscience will over the years. Sad and pointless.....like your Nazi war criminal. You neglected to mention he left the child out there for seven hours. That's pretty bad and probably explains the murder charge. I'm pretty much done responding to your hysterics. At the end of the day I agree the Nazi should be charged. I stand by the idea that ANY 89 year old person going to prison is kind of "sad" and if that's got you all butthurt, well then so be it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Googballz 39 Posted June 20, 2014 Wow you're dumb You are the one who doesn't think what went on at Auschwitz "exhibits deprived indifference for the value of human life", Sport. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 20, 2014 You are the one who doesn't think what went on at Auschwitz "exhibits deprived indifference for the value of human life", Sport. You better just stop before you embarrass yourself into needing a new handle again Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Googballz 39 Posted June 20, 2014 Poor Worms.....got backed into a corner again and has to pull out the alias schtick to save face. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 20, 2014 Poor Worms.....got backed into a corner again and has to pull out the alias schtick to save face. Thanks GP. If I'm ever feeling insecure about myself I can come back to this thread and know that there are people out there who are far, far dumber than I Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Googballz 39 Posted June 20, 2014 people out there far, far dumber than I Not possible. HTH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 20, 2014 Not possible. HTH Realized your error yet? Feeling a little red in the face? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Googballz 39 Posted June 20, 2014 Realized your error yet? Feeling a little red in the face? Feel free to point it out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Googballz 39 Posted June 20, 2014 Just caught it. Chalk this day up as the best day in Worms' life. Caught me misreading a post. Congrats! Don't drink too much champagne, Sport. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 20, 2014 I'd be focking dead if I drank every time I owned your ass Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill E. 666 Posted June 20, 2014 This is bullsh*t. This guy is a nobody. Like him, I joined the Army when I was 17, let me tell you what the deal is. I made zero decisions. I went where they assigned me and when I got there, I did what they told me. If I didn't do what they told me, or if I walked away, I'd get seriously punished for it. We're going to fock this dude over because that's where some Army commander assigned him and where he got off the truck? This guy has no responsibility for what happened there. He's a peon. It's his bosses who were the real criminals. I agree 100%. If he refused his orders in WW2 Germany he would probably have been shot. In the U.S. a soldier has the responsibility to refuse an illegal order. In WW2 Germany I doubt they were given a similar directive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Googballz 39 Posted June 20, 2014 I'd be focking dead if I drank every time I owned your ass Whooo Hooo! Quite the accomplishment there Worms.....I read a post and confused who you were talking about between the two guys. Congrats on the win, Sport. You really showed me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drobeski 3,061 Posted June 20, 2014 Well you're wrong. I'd say the same thing if it was an abortion doctor killer or whatever. Frankly I find your assumptions to be highly offensive.my god, you're a twat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 20, 2014 my god, you're a twat Have I told you how cute I think it is when you run to GP's defense? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naomi 343 Posted June 21, 2014 I agree 100%. If he refused his orders in WW2 Germany he would probably have been shot. In the U.S. a soldier has the responsibility to refuse an illegal order. In WW2 Germany I doubt they were given a similar directive. No...according to everything I've read (trying to figure that angle out) it's the opposite. Hemmler actually made it a directive that no German was to be coerced into taking part in the extermination process. If you didn't want to, you transferred. They didn't accept everybody into the SS in the first place, you had to pass political and philosophical muster first. Buchheim is a German historian: Buchheim argues there was no coercion to murder Jews and others, and all who committed such actions did so out of free will.[38] Buchheim wrote that chances to avoid executing criminal orders "...were both more numerous and more real than those concerned are generally prepared to admit".[39] Buchheim commented that until the middle of 1942, the SS had been a strictly volunteer organization, and that anyone who joined the SS after the Nazis had taken over the German government in 1933 either knew or came to know that he was joining an organization that would be involved in atrocities of one sort or another.[40] Buchheim found no evidence that SS men who refused to carry out criminal orders were punished with execution or sent to a concentration camp.[41] Other historians agree.[42] On the other hand, there is no known record of an SS officer refusing to commit an atrocity; they willingly did so, and then cherished the awards they received for doing so.[43] Buchheim notes that SS wartime rules, though calling for harsh and murderous treatment of Jews, prohibited acts of gratuitous sadism, as Himmler wished for his men to remain "decent", and that such acts of gratuitous cruelty were taken on the individual initiative of those who were either especially cruel and/or wished to prove themselves ardent National Socialists.[44] Finally, Buchheim argues that for those of a non-criminal bent who committed crimes did so because they wished to conform to the values of the group they had joined and were fearful of being branded "weak" by their by colleagues if they refused.[45] Those who killed were really dedicated to the cause. That's what SS recruitment aimed for and it's what survivor's stories depict. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naomi 343 Posted June 21, 2014 Does that thought still bother you Worms, or as the 'debate' evolved, does it make more sense? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kilroy69 994 Posted June 21, 2014 I have a hard time seeing how being an armed guard justifies this. If there is proof he personally took part in killing I would consider it. However if he was just doing his job in which it seems like he was conscripted that does nt seem fair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted June 21, 2014 Does that thought still bother you Worms, or as the 'debate' evolved, does it make more sense? Tone it down, naomi. We don't wanna offend anyone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted June 21, 2014 You neglected to mention he left the child out there for seven hours. That's pretty bad and probably explains the murder charge. I'm pretty much done responding to your hysterics. At the end of the day I agree the Nazi should be charged. I stand by the idea that ANY 89 year old person going to prison is kind of "sad" and if that's got you all butthurt, well then so be it Hysterics? Whatever. I thought we were discussing the philosophies of punishment. You seem to think that punishing old people accomplishes nothing. Which is fine although it is extremely arbitrary. Is sentencing a 77 year old sad and pointless? 45 year old with stage IV cancer? At what point does it cease becoming sad and pointless? Or is it all sad and pointless to some degree because there will always be criminals? Just asking questions. Not to be all hysterical or anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 21, 2014 Does that thought still bother you Worms, or as the 'debate' evolved, does it make more sense? I still think he should be prosecuted, just as I originally said, and just as I would say for someone who killed an abortion doctor or murdered some black folk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 3,310 Posted June 21, 2014 (CNN) - It was a tragedy from the outset: a toddler found dead apparently after being left alone for hours in a hot car, a distraught father blaming himself and facing serious criminal charges. Now, Cobb County, Georgia, police imply there is more -- much more -- to the story. "Much has changed about the circumstances leading up to the death of this 22-month-old since it was first reported," Cobb County Police Sgt. Dana Pierce told CNN. He would not elaborate, citing an ongoing investigation, but his words made it clear this was not just another case of a young life left and lost to heat exposure in a hot car. "I've been in law enforcement for 34 years. What I know about this case shocks my conscience as a police officer, a father and a grandfather," said Pierce. Initially, Justin Ross Harris, 33, told Cobb County police that he accidentally left his toddler son in his SUV on Wednesday. According to police, Harris told them he had forgotten to drop the child off at a daycare center, before going to work. Harris initially told police he realized that he'd left the boy strapped in his car seat as he drove home Wednesday afternoon. Investigators say patrol officers were in the area of the Akers Mill Square shopping center in the suburban Atlanta county when dispatchers received the calls from witnesses around 4:20 p.m. "He kept saying, 'What have I done? What have I done?'" Dale Hamilton told CNN affiliate WSB-TV. "Within moments of the first responders getting to the scene and doing their job and questions began to be asked about the moments that led up to their arrival at the scene, some of those answers were not making sense to the first responders," Pierce of Cobb County Police said. On Thursday, Harris pleaded not guilty to felony murder and cruelty to children charges. He's being held without bond at the Cobb County Jail. Why do you think prosecuting child murderers is "sad and pointless" FeelingMN? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted June 21, 2014 Why do you think prosecuting child murderers is "sad and pointless" FeelingMN? Yeah that sounds a little different than what I read earlier. Guess there's a reason why the dude was charged with murder. Fock him. Only thing sad and pointless is his focking existence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Moz 69 Posted June 21, 2014 Wasn't the Pope or former Pope in the Hitler youth? The guy was a kid doing what he was told - non story Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill E. 666 Posted June 22, 2014 No...according to everything I've read (trying to figure that angle out) it's the opposite. Hemmler actually made it a directive that no German was to be coerced into taking part in the extermination process. If you didn't want to, you transferred. They didn't accept everybody into the SS in the first place, you had to pass political and philosophical muster first. Buchheim is a German historian: Those who killed were really dedicated to the cause. That's what SS recruitment aimed for and it's what survivor's stories depict. Never knew that. That changes things. Nevermind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
