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Squats and Deadlifts


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#1 shorepatrol

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 11:58 PM

I never did them. I started doing them, ALOT.  I should have always done them. That is all. I'm gonna go fock a hot dinosaur against it's will now, because I can now? Thoughts? 



#2 Filthy Fernadez

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:01 AM

I never did them. I started doing them, ALOT.  I should have always done them. That is all. I'm gonna go fock a hot dinosaur against it's will now, because I can now? Thoughts? 

 
Try out the Lickalotofpus

BBC for the most part is pretty damn good.


#3 shorepatrol

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:07 AM

 
Try out the Lickalotofpus

Riptoe link for form please  :banana:



#4 titans&bucs&bearsohmy!

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:17 AM

Enjoy your tyrannosaurus sex.

#5 Filthy Fernadez

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:23 AM

Enjoy your tyrannosaurus sex.

 

https://i.imgur.com/Nk5ONVy.gif


BBC for the most part is pretty damn good.


#6 titans&bucs&bearsohmy!

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:43 AM

 
https://i.imgur.com/Nk5ONVy.gif

Hes gonna need that or hell be a brontosoreass.

#7 wiffleball

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 01:15 AM

Hes gonna need that or hell be a brontosoreass.


Lol
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#8 wiffleball

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 01:17 AM

Recommend the squat machine. You can still get a really solid ISO on your quads without nearly as much impact on the knees. Also pretty much ensures you keep your back straight.

Deadlift Is My Jam back in the day. I think it was more just a matter of sheer willfulness. too God damn stubborn to let go.
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#9 jerryskids

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:18 PM

Riptoe link for form please  :banana:

 

Interesting that you mention Rippetoe; he espouses deep squats well past 90 degrees; different form than a lot of us learned growing up.  Our gym does a similar style.  Never had a knee problem from working out there.

 

You might add power cleans, but have someone who knows what they are doing teach you the technique.  You have to explode the bar off of your hips.

 

Penny will be here soon to tell us we are dummies.  :cheers:


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#10 Gladiators

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:24 PM

 
Interesting that you mention Rippetoe; he espouses deep squats well past 90 degrees; different form than a lot of us learned growing up.  Our gym does a similar style.  Never had a knee problem from working out there.
 
You might add power cleans, but have someone who knows what they are doing teach you the technique.  You have to explode the bar off of your hips.
 
Penny will be here soon to tell us we are dummies.  :cheers:


:lol:

I think you are safe. Huge gunfight going on right now.

#11 MDC

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:36 PM

I have enough back problems thanks.
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#12 Frozenbeernuts

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:42 PM

How old are you? I am suspecting some kind of performance enhancement.

I just messed up my knee doing squats. Deadlifts are pointless imo. Too much chance for injury vs reward.

#13 wiffleball

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:56 PM

How old are you? I am suspecting some kind of performance enhancement.

I just messed up my knee doing squats. Deadlifts are pointless imo. Too much chance for injury vs reward.


Yeah, young man's endeavour.
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#14 shorepatrol

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 05:16 PM

How old are you? I am suspecting some kind of performance enhancement.

I just messed up my knee doing squats. Deadlifts are pointless imo. Too much chance for injury vs reward.



46. I use a trap bar for deadlifts. Easier on my back.

#15 Frozenbeernuts

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 05:29 PM

46. I use a trap bar for deadlifts. Easier on my back.


Ever try using dumbbells? Idk how much weight you do, but I find that dumbbells allow a more natural motion than keeping the bar in front of the legs.

#16 Fireballer

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 05:51 PM

Keep doing them as long as you can do them. Obviously form is paramount. Deep low bar squats are great. Knee and back problems come from bad form unless you have previous knee or back problems. Low bar squats(what rippetoe teaches) initially feel like you are leaning over waaaaay too far.

I use the comparison to standing up if one of your kids jumps on your back while your squatted over. Its a very natural movement. You would not fight to keep your back vertical nor would you be looking up. Just keep your core tight via valsalva and stand up. Thats it.

#17 jerryskids

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 07:04 PM

How old are you? I am suspecting some kind of performance enhancement.

I just messed up my knee doing squats. Deadlifts are pointless imo. Too much chance for injury vs reward.

 

A squat is a natural motion; it is one of the things knees were designed to do.  Deadlifts are a whole-leg workout, especially hamstrings which you don't really get with squats.  Also shoulders, arms, back... Unless you sub in cleans or power cleans.  :cheers:


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#18 MDC

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 07:37 PM

I do zero legwork at all. I jog several days a week and on my off days I go for a 2-3 mile walk. This is probably why I have chicken legs.
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#19 penultimatestraw

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 08:53 PM

 

Interesting that you mention Rippetoe; he espouses deep squats well past 90 degrees; different form than a lot of us learned growing up.  Our gym does a similar style.  Never had a knee problem from working out there.

 

You might add power cleans, but have someone who knows what they are doing teach you the technique.  You have to explode the bar off of your hips.

 

Penny will be here soon to tell us we are dummies.  :cheers:

Those exercises are great for whole body strength...and injury. Joint cartilage and intervertebral discs can take only so much pounding before they fail. I think you're better off doing body weight exercises and less explosive stuff, while shifting the focus to cardiovascular health and flexibility as you age.



#20 penultimatestraw

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 08:56 PM

 

A squat is a natural motion; it is one of the things knees were designed to do.  Deadlifts are a whole-leg workout, especially hamstrings which you don't really get with squats.  Also shoulders, arms, back... Unless you sub in cleans or power cleans.  :cheers:

While the motion may be natural, the added weight isn't. There are plenty of good ways to get a whole body work out that aren't as taxing on your joints. Did I mention climbing?



#21 jerryskids

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 09:35 PM

While the motion may be natural, the added weight isn't. There are plenty of good ways to get a whole body work out that aren't as taxing on your joints. Did I mention climbing?

 

We've been climbing like I told you earlier.

 

https://www.trailfor...trails/old-man/

 

We live close to South Mountain Park which is the largest city park in the nation.  Last week we climbed up Old Man Trail, across the peaks on Midlife Crisis Trail (not so much elevation change but a lot of rock climbing and figuring out where the hell the trail goes), and down Young Man Trail.  Took about 3.5 hours and we darn near ran out of water, and energy.  Both I believe are double black diamond bike trails; we actually saw three crazy bikers going down (there are easier trails up for bikes).

 

Young Man is our go-to, we did it this morning.  We live really close to that and easily walk there.

 

I'm enjoying adding climbing/hiking to our exercise regimen.  But with a recidivist jones fracture in my foot, I'm thinking it is when not if it breaks again given the difficulty of the terrain.  I have no such fear at my HIIT gym.  But hey, different exercises offer different risks, right?  :cheers:


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#22 penultimatestraw

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 09:51 PM

 

We've been climbing like I told you earlier.

 

https://www.trailfor...trails/old-man/

 

We live close to South Mountain Park which is the largest city park in the nation.  Last week we climbed up Old Man Trail, across the peaks on Midlife Crisis Trail (not so much elevation change but a lot of rock climbing and figuring out where the hell the trail goes), and down Young Man Trail.  Took about 3.5 hours and we darn near ran out of water, and energy.  Both I believe are double black diamond bike trails; we actually saw three crazy bikers going down (there are easier trails up for bikes).

 

Young Man is our go-to, we did it this morning.  We live really close to that and easily walk there.

 

I'm enjoying adding climbing/hiking to our exercise regimen.  But with a recidivist jones fracture in my foot, I'm thinking it is when not if it breaks again given the difficulty of the terrain.  I have no such fear at my HIIT gym.  But hey, different exercises offer different risks, right?  :cheers:

Sure. There is always a risk:reward analysis to be undertaken. I really like mountain biking, but I've backed way off because the risk of injury is just too high. Road cycling isn't nearly as fun, but much safer IMO. Hiking is about the same. Snow skiing and rock climbing hit the sweet spot for fun, health benefit and tolerable risk IMO.

 

You should consider indoor climbing - very low risk and excellent exercise. A lot of problem solving too, so its great for analytical types.



#23 jerryskids

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 09:58 PM

Sure. There is always a risk:reward analysis to be undertaken. I really like mountain biking, but I've backed way off because the risk of injury is just too high. Road cycling isn't nearly as fun, but much safer IMO. Hiking is about the same. Snow skiing and rock climbing hit the sweet spot for fun, health benefit and tolerable risk IMO.

 

You should consider indoor climbing - very low risk and excellent exercise. A lot of problem solving too, so its great for analytical types.

 

I have exterior tibial torsion in my legs; while I did ski in HS a little, if I were to do it now I might as well save the time and money and take a sledgehammer to my knees.  It's roughly 90271489302174X riskier to me than power lifting.  Like I said, different exercises offer different risks, to different people.  :cheers:

 

In fact, the more I think about it:  am I to understand that you believe that squats with weight, with proper form, are harder on your knees than skiing, even if you don't have my leg problem?  :unsure:


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#24 penultimatestraw

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:12 PM

 

I have exterior tibial torsion in my legs; while I did ski in HS a little, if I were to do it now I might as well save the time and money and take a sledgehammer to my knees.  It's roughly 90271489302174X riskier to me than power lifting.  Like I said, different exercises offer different risks, to different people.  :cheers:

 

In fact, the more I think about it:  am I to understand that you believe that squats with weight, with proper form, are harder on your knees than skiing, even if you don't have my leg problem?  :unsure:

Depends what type of skiing. Routine downhill on groomed slopes or fresh powder? Relatively easy on the knees if your form is correct. Moguls, not so much.

 

Low weight squats aren't a problem. When you start lifting multiples of your body weight, the extra pounds transmitted through your joints and spinal column is a recipe for disaster in the long term. You ever wonder why you don't see a lot of old guys power lifting? I've met plenty of 60, 70, even a few 80+ year olds that still ski.



#25 jerryskids

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:42 PM

Depends what type of skiing. Routine downhill on groomed slopes or fresh powder? Relatively easy on the knees if your form is correct. Moguls, not so much.

 

Low weight squats aren't a problem. When you start lifting multiples of your body weight, the extra pounds transmitted through your joints and spinal column is a recipe for disaster in the long term. You ever wonder why you don't see a lot of old guys power lifting? I've met plenty of 60, 70, even a few 80+ year olds that still ski.

 

So to make sure I understand, to you:  skiing is a smooth green circle, maybe risking an occasional blue square, of fairly smooth and straight runs for controlled parallel skiing?  Nah, didn't think so.  You are doing black diamonds minimum.  Nothing easy on the knees there.  Feel free to tell me you stick to those easier runs though.  

 

We've got 60, 70, and a few 80+ year olds at our gym doing power lifting.  So I don't wonder that.  Also the ones you've met probably have very good form and as such don't tend to get injured, although at the end of the day they are flying down a hill vs. a highly controlled power lift.  :cheers:


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#26 wiffleball

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 11:14 PM

Listing of the largest city parks in the nation. God he picks weird shiit to lie about.

https://www.statista...in-the-us-2009/
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#27 wiffleball

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 11:18 PM

Hell, South Mountain Park isn't even the biggest city park in that state!

That would be McDowell Sonoran. Almost twice its size.
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#28 Fireballer

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 11:42 PM

Pen,
I would be curious to hear your opinion on Sully's approach to aging. He's a legit MD/Physiologist and doesnt just play one on a lightly trafficked message board. Hes also got alot of good stuff at startingstrength.com



#29 penultimatestraw

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:54 AM

 

So to make sure I understand, to you:  skiing is a smooth green circle, maybe risking an occasional blue square, of fairly smooth and straight runs for controlled parallel skiing?  Nah, didn't think so.  You are doing black diamonds minimum.  Nothing easy on the knees there.  Feel free to tell me you stick to those easier runs though.  

 

We've got 60, 70, and a few 80+ year olds at our gym doing power lifting.  So I don't wonder that.  Also the ones you've met probably have very good form and as such don't tend to get injured, although at the end of the day they are flying down a hill vs. a highly controlled power lift.  :cheers:

I ski harder runs. Aside from moguls, I don't think most of what I do is particularly hard on the knees. Per session, I'll concede the lateral forces may be worse than lifting weights, but I ski only three weeks a year, so the cumulative abuse is likely far less.  

 

I can't find anything comparing skiing to power lifting, but here is a study of athletes and risk of knee arthritis: http://natajournals....?code=nata-site

Elite-level athletes who play soccer, run long distance, compete in Olympic weightlifting, or wrestle are 3-7 times more likely to suffer from osteoarthritis in their knees than comparably elite basketball players, boxers, or track and field athletes, researchers found.

 

In the study, researchers conducted a systematic review of six databases, analyzing the link between sport and osteoarthritis among nearly 3,800 athletes. In general, about 45% of athletes suffer knee osteoarthritis—but that risk increases to 57% among athletes with knee injuries, and rises to 61% among former athletes who become obese, the researchers say. The osteoarthritis risk is correlated with a sport’s intensity, the researchers say—sports like running and weightlifting place higher demands on knee joints, while soccer and wrestling often involve knee twisting under stress.

Granted, none of us are training at an elite level, but I still believe the repetitive stress of regular power lifting is less than ideal for middle aged dudes. I'm probably biased due to the damage I caused trying to lift too much in my 20's and 30's, though admittedly my bad joints are all in my upper body - shoulders, elbows and low back.



#30 titans&bucs&bearsohmy!

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:52 AM

Sure. There is always a risk:reward analysis to be undertaken. I really like mountain biking, but I've backed way off because the risk of injury is just too high. Road cycling isn't nearly as fun, but much safer IMO. Hiking is about the same. Snow skiing and rock climbing hit the sweet spot for fun, health benefit and tolerable risk IMO.
 
You should consider indoor climbing - very low risk and excellent exercise. A lot of problem solving too, so its great for analytical types.


For a while, I went to a climbing gym three times a week in Nashville. So much focking fun. Youre right, great exercise but actually fun.

Wish there was one here. I wouldnt trust the belaying equipment even if there was though.

#31 Frozenbeernuts

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:05 AM

Pen,
I would be curious to hear your opinion on Sully's approach to aging. He's a legit MD/Physiologist and doesnt just play one on a lightly trafficked message board. Hes also got alot of good stuff at startingstrength.com


I really think a lot of it is just genetics. Some people will not be bothered by weight lifting. Then there is me, at 34, I feel like my joints and ligaments are aging more quickly than they should. My knee may have some small amounts of damage from other things, which is now surfacing.

#32 penultimatestraw

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:25 AM

Pen,
I would be curious to hear your opinion on Sully's approach to aging. He's a legit MD/Physiologist and doesnt just play one on a lightly trafficked message board. Hes also got alot of good stuff at startingstrength.com

First off, thanks for the video. Really interesting stuff, and the speaker is legit.
 
I think some of you are confused on my stance, so let me clarify: weight training is not the debbil. I acknowledge it offers great bang for the buck for whole body exercise, especially for those with time constraints. While the power lifting described in the video seems to be working, I don't think most people take part in such closely monitored, structured programs. Many lose focus of the goal of overall health in favor of gaining strength and muscle bulk for vanity's sake. Overuse injury often results, and explosive, high impact/weight exercises have greater potential for serious injuries than body weight, functional activities. Moreover, I think going to the gym is a bit contrived in comparison to taking part in an outdoor activity/sport, and the best exercise is the one you enjoy/keeps you motivated. In that regard, I don't like the speaker's seeming rigidity for the exercises he advocates, and believe cross training with multiple activities is probably optimal. I also think he's overstating the cardiovascular benefits of strength training - the HIIT is doing the lion's share of his patients' CV work.
 
If you love lifting heavy weights, burpees, kipping, etc., by all means, go for it. After lifting for 20+ years, I prefer climbing/hiking/biking/skiing, with a smattering of push ups and planks. While I've less muscle bulk than when I was younger, I'm willing to bet my overall fitness level stacks up pretty well to the bored gym rats. And I guarantee the places my exercise has taken me are far more beautiful than any athletic club.

#33 penultimatestraw

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:31 AM

For a while, I went to a climbing gym three times a week in Nashville. So much focking fun. Youre right, great exercise but actually fun.

Wish there was one here. I wouldnt trust the belaying equipment even if there was though.

The self belay stuff is safe, but it's much more fun to have a partner. As long as they aren't terrified of heights, many chicks like climbing - they have lower centers of gravity and naturally use their legs better than guys. You should try it out with your fiancee, though she'd need to anchor herself to belay you safely given the weight disparity.

 

Or you can just try bouldering, low elevation climbing which does not require ropes. Personally, I find this less enjoyable and the moves tend to be more dynamic (read: potential for injury).



#34 penultimatestraw

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:35 AM

I really think a lot of it is just genetics. Some people will not be bothered by weight lifting. Then there is me, at 34, I feel like my joints and ligaments are aging more quickly than they should. My knee may have some small amounts of damage from other things, which is now surfacing.

Like everything else, joint integrity is influenced by genetics. But heavy lifting tends to catch up to just about everyone. Muscle builds and repairs much more effectively than tendons and ligaments.



#35 Fireballer

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:00 AM

First off, thanks for the video. Really interesting stuff, and the speaker is legit.
 
I think some of you are confused on my stance, so let me clarify: weight training is not the debbil. I acknowledge it offers great bang for the buck for whole body exercise, especially for those with time constraints. While the power lifting described in the video seems to be working, I don't think most people take part in such closely monitored, structured programs. Many lose focus of the goal of overall health in favor of gaining strength and muscle bulk for vanity's sake. Overuse injury often results, and explosive, high impact/weight exercises have greater potential for serious injuries than body weight, functional activities. Moreover, I think going to the gym is a bit contrived in comparison to taking part in an outdoor activity/sport, and the best exercise is the one you enjoy/keeps you motivated. In that regard, I don't like the speaker's seeming rigidity for the exercises he advocates, and believe cross training with multiple activities is probably optimal. I also think he's overstating the cardiovascular benefits of strength training - the HIIT is doing the lion's share of his patients' CV work.
 
If you love lifting heavy weights, burpees, kipping, etc., by all means, go for it. After lifting for 20+ years, I prefer climbing/hiking/biking/skiing, with a smattering of push ups and planks. While I've less muscle bulk than when I was younger, I'm willing to bet my overall fitness level stacks up pretty well to the bored gym rats. And I guarantee the places my exercise has taken me are far more beautiful than any athletic club.


Nice viewpoint...thanks.

#36 jerryskids

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:32 AM

Listing of the largest city parks in the nation. God he picks weird shiit to lie about.

https://www.statista...in-the-us-2009/

 

South Mountain Park in Phoenix, Arizona is the largest municipal park in the United States,[1] and one of the largest urban parks in North America and in the world. It has been designated as a Phoenix Point of Pride.[2]

 

https://en.wikipedia...h_Mountain_Park


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#37 Kanil

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:23 AM

 power cleans.  :cheers:

 

I prefer to "power jerk".



#38 mmmmm...beer

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:29 AM

I don't do them anymore.. injury to my L1 in 2016 scared the sh!t out of me...

I have been thinking lately of reincorporating them.. light weights.. nothing over 225 for either.. just many sets.
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#39 wiffleball

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:34 AM

 
South Mountain Park in Phoenix, Arizona is the largest municipality's park in the United States,[1] and one of the largest urban parks in North America and in the world. It has been designated as a Phoenix Point of Pride.[2]
 
https://en.wikipedia...h_Mountain_Park


You didn't say that! You can't move the goalposts now mother-humper!
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#40 wiffleball

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:36 AM

 
I prefer to "power jerk".


You know, if you're Michael j.fox, pretty much every dumbbell is a Shake Weight.
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