Trump: No cuts to 401(k)s

[IGotWorms 3,302]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/us/politics/trump-tax-cuts-reform-retirement-savings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

 

 

 

WASHINGTON — President Trump said on Monday that he would oppose any effort to reduce the amount of pretax income that American workers can save in 401(k) retirement accounts, effectively killing an idea that Republicans were mulling as a way to help pay for a $1.5 trillion tax cut.

The directive, issued via Twitter, underscored a growing fear among Republicans and business lobbyists that Mr. Trump’s bully-pulpit whims could undermine the party’s best chance to pass the most sweeping rewrite of the tax code in decades.

Overhauling the tax code was never going to be easy given that it requires targeting lucrative and politically popular tax breaks to mitigate the magnitude of cuts Republicans are envisioning. Lawmakers must mitigate the revenue loss from those tax cuts in order to avoid a Democratic filibuster and pass a bill along party lines.

Publicly and privately, supporters of the Republican tax effort say they are concerned that Mr. Trump will make a hard task even harder. The Republican effort to repeal the Affordable Care Act was a similarly difficult effort, and the president’s comments and actions were often not helpful. For instance, Mr. Trump hosted House Republicans in the Rose Garden to celebrate passage of a bill to repeal the Affordable Care Act, only to call the same bill “mean” later. Last week, he confounded Republicans again by backing away from his endorsement of a bipartisan Senate proposal to stabilize health insurance markets.

 

 

 

What a transparently obvious dog and pony show.

 

Like slashing the hell out of allowable 401(k) contributions was ever a serious option? To hand tax cuts to billionaires?? That would've sparked a freaking revolution!

[KSB2424 3,082]

Admittedly Ive stayed out of the details of politics lately, but isnt there a cap in pre tax 401k savings. I think its barely over if you make six figures.

 

Not exactly the super wealthy.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,566]

oh good, Worms now wants to entire Wiff territory, complaining about nothing for no reason

[Reality 2,710]

oh good, Worms now wants to entire Wiff territory, complaining about nothing for no reason

Nailed it.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Admittedly Ive stayed out of the details of politics lately, but isnt there a cap in pre tax 401k savings. I think its barely over if you make six figures.

 

Not exactly the super wealthy.

You may be looking at some different numbers for IRA's and not 401k. There is no income limit for 401k contributions.

 

You can put in $18k per year, but it is tax deferred, not tax free. If you have access to a 401k, you would be wise to read up on it more.

[KSB2424 3,082]

You may be looking at some different numbers for IRA's and not 401k. There is no income limit for 401k contributions.

 

You can put in $18k per year, but it is tax deferred, not tax free. If you have access to a 401k, you would be wise to read up on it more.

So there is a limit on how much you can put in it. 18k a year.

 

My point is that rich people dont dump millions of dollars into 401ks because you cant. Those are used by the middle class.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

So there is a limit on how much you can put in it. 18k a year.

 

My point is that rich people dont dump millions of dollars into 401ks because you cant. Those are used by the middle class.

But the discussion was around lowering the limit which would hurt the middle class. That included people making more than 6 figures. It probably hurts those making $150-250k.

[wiffleball 4,631]

This smacks exactly of when Trump sent out a tweet about proposed Health Care changes calling the new Republican draft 'mean'.

 

Then of course he bitched when nothing happened.

 

Of course, unlike Obama, Trump never did a single road trip, a single dog and pony, a single televised address to try and sell the proposed new healthcare bill. So not only did he not do anything, he openly undercut it with his so-called 'mean' tweet.

 

And then he bitched that Congress couldn't get anything done.

 

This is going to be the same way. Dude wants the best of Both Worlds and, like Health Care before this, really has no idea nor any interest in the details of the legislation.

 

We have seen it time and time again already: Trump thinks being POTUS is sitting on a little desk with a bunch of people behind him with a bunch of cameras in front of him making some Grand gesture of signing some piece of paper that means absolutely nothing. That to him is Being President.

 

Actually knowing what the hell he's signing or being a part of the process of Getting something passed? Either bores him or more likely is above his intellectual capacity.

[KSB2424 3,082]

I feel like we are complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I feel like we are complaining for the sake of complaining.

 

I think that there is angst that Trump's tax cuts will further shift the burden of paying for things to the middle class. I don't know about you, but that seems like a pretty big deal.

[wiffleball 4,631]

It's funny, even on trumps home court, Fox Business, it threw him a softball about this issue. His answer strangely steered into how Bob Kraft recently gave him a Super Bowl ring. And never ever came anywhere near close to addressing the actual subject. Even the fox chick had this look on her face like what the f***?

[TimmySmith 2,782]

But the discussion was around lowering the limit which would hurt the middle class.

Exactly, Trump keeps saying no to hurting the middle class, and Congress keeps trying to do it. They absolutely do not get the reasons that Trump was elected.

 

To even imply that this 401K struggle is about the upper class shows that people are either idiots or don't care about the facts.

[wiffleball 4,631]

Timmy, I believe the reason Congress was looking at the 401K deduction reduction was because it would generate a ton of money. There are still true conservatives in Congress who want any tax plan to be Revenue neutral.

 

The 401k contribution reduction would have gone a long way towards making the tax reform bill revenue-neutral is my understanding at least.

 

If they ended up passing a bill that effectively reduced the burden on the highest of incomes while even marginally increasing the burden on the middle class, it would be a hard sell.

 

Trump is simply trying to do what every other president before him has tried to do more or less. Come out publicly and say how much he wants to protect the middle class yet somehow wants to increase spending without increasing Revenue. S*** doesn't work that way. That's how we ended up in the s*** hole we're in right now.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Timmy, I believe the reason Congress was looking at the 401K deduction reduction was because it would generate a ton of money. There are still true conservatives in Congress who want any tax plan to be Revenue neutral.

 

The 401k contribution reduction would have gone a long way towards making the tax reform bill revenue-neutral is my understanding at least.

No shite. But the only ones getting screwed here are MC workers with 401k's.

[IGotWorms 3,302]

I feel like we are complaining for the sake of complaining.

Let me break it down for you.

 

The Republicans want to pass a huge gift to the rich. Thats what all their campaign contributions have been for. This was the end goal of folks like the Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson. Going back to the tea party, this was their plan.

 

Problem is the democrats can filibuster unless you do it through reconciliation. And if you do reconciliation then you cant blow up the budget deficit short term.

 

So what to do? I mean if you just came right out with it and raised taxes on the middle class to hand trillions to the rich... that would not go over well.

 

So one idea thats supposedly been floated is well drastically lower the cap on 401k contributions. Like PFB said, the current cap is $18k for most people then $22k for those over a certain age (I think 55) so they can try to catch up if they need to. (Side note: good focking luck with that. If you miss out on decades of compound interest, youre screwed.)

 

These supposed proposals were that theyd lower it to like $2,500 per year which is focking insanely low. No one could ever properly save for retirement at that rate.

 

Oh well gee then youd just put it in a Roth, which is I guess what they were supposedly going to try and sell. If you use a Roth account then you pay taxes on your income like always. However when you draw it out later in retirement it is not taxed. People typically use them as a small aside to 401ks to protect themselves in case their tax rate is higher in retirement than now. Although that seemingly would rarely be the case since you almost always make more money, maybe much more money, while working than in retirement. The other sucky part about Roths is since the money is taxed immediately you have less youre investing up front which means less compound interest and compound interest is how you really grow that nest egg.

 

But heres why some crazy thinkers on the right like the idea: it gets you a huge pot of tax money from the middle class up front (to pay for those tax cuts for the mega wealthy). Later the budget will be completely focked when those people are drawing money out of their Roths tax free but Republicans dont care. All they need is a bill that looks revenue neural in the first 10 years so they can use reconciliation.

 

So its a terrible deal for the middle class and people wouldve been extremely pissed. 401k contributions are sacrosanct to middle class saving. Its the only way most middle class people can truly get ahead and even then if doesnt actually do you much good til youre 65 and thats assuming you dont drop dead before then. But hey, its the best we got. And they supposedly wanted to take it away.

 

So the purpose of this thread is I think it was all a ruse to up trumps supposed populist image. He comes out and says we aint touching your 401ks so supposedly he looks good. But its insane to think they were ever going to do that in the first place. Its like if I contract with someone to burn down your house but then I come put out the fire. Am I your hero?

[IMMensaMind 459]

This smacks exactly of when Trump sent out a tweet about proposed Health Care changes calling the new Republican draft 'mean'.

Then of course he bitched when nothing happened.

Of course, unlike Obama, Trump never did a single road trip, a single dog and pony, a single televised address to try and sell the proposed new healthcare bill. So not only did he not do anything, he openly undercut it with his so-called 'mean' tweet.

And then he bitched that Congress couldn't get anything done.

This is going to be the same way. Dude wants the best of Both Worlds and, like Health Care before this, really has no idea nor any interest in the details of the legislation.

We have seen it time and time again already: Trump thinks being POTUS is sitting on a little desk with a bunch of people behind him with a bunch of cameras in front of him making some Grand gesture of signing some piece of paper that means absolutely nothing. That to him is Being President.

Actually knowing what the hell he's signing or being a part of the process of Getting something passed? Either bores him or more likely is above his intellectual capacity.

TDS.

 

He won partly due to his promise to R&R ObamaCare. What campaigning?

[IGotWorms 3,302]

Exactly, Trump keeps saying no to hurting the middle class, and Congress keeps trying to do it. They absolutely do not get the reasons that Trump was elected.

 

To even imply that this 401K struggle is about the upper class shows that people are either idiots or don't care about the facts.

You appear to have no idea what youre talking about.

 

I never said that 401ks help the upper class. That would be idiotic. The point is they are the best focking thing the middle class has going for them and supposedly the republicans wanted to take it away so they could hand trillions to the upper class.

 

I say supposedly because, again, Im convinced this was all a dog and pony show. Now trump looks like a populist and the middle class is so damn happy they get to keep their 401k that they wont even notice or care when they end up taking it in the ass in a different manner. Ultimately the middle class DOES have to take it in the ass to give trillions to the rich in a revenue neutral bill, the only question is the precise mechanism

[IMMensaMind 459]

Let me break it down for you.

The Republicans want to pass a huge gift to the rich. Thats what all their campaign contributions have been for. This was the end goal of folks like the Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson. Going back to the tea party, this was their plan.

Problem is the democrats can filibuster unless you do it through reconciliation. And if you do reconciliation then you cant blow up the budget deficit short term.

So what to do? I mean if you just came right out with it and raised taxes on the middle class to hand trillions to the rich... that would not go over well.

So one idea thats supposedly been floated is well drastically lower the cap on 401k contributions. Like PFB said, the current cap is $18k for most people then $22k for those over a certain age (I think 55) so they can try to catch up if they need to. (Side note: good focking luck with that. If you miss out on decades of compound interest, youre screwed.)

These supposed proposals were that theyd lower it to like $2,500 per year which is focking insanely low. No one could ever properly save for retirement at that rate.

Oh well gee then youd just put it in a Roth, which is I guess what they were supposedly going to try and sell. If you use a Roth account then you pay taxes on your income like always. However when you draw it out later in retirement it is not taxed. People typically use them as a small aside to 401ks to protect themselves in case their tax rate is higher in retirement than now. Although that seemingly would rarely be the case since you almost always make more money, maybe much more money, while working than in retirement. The other sucky part about Roths is since the money is taxed immediately you have less youre investing up front which means less compound interest and compound interest is how you really grow that nest egg.

But heres why some crazy thinkers on the right like the idea: it gets you a huge pot of tax money from the middle class up front (to pay for those tax cuts for the mega wealthy). Later the budget will be completely focked when those people are drawing money out of their Roths tax free but Republicans dont care. All they need is a bill that looks revenue neural in the first 10 years so they can use reconciliation.

So its a terrible deal for the middle class and people wouldve been extremely pissed. 401k contributions are sacrosanct to middle class saving. Its the only way most middle class people can truly get ahead and even then if doesnt actually do you much good til youre 65 and thats assuming you dont drop dead before then. But hey, its the best we got. And they supposedly wanted to take it away.

So the purpose of this thread is I think it was all a ruse to up trumps supposed populist image. He comes out and says we aint touching your 401ks so supposedly he looks good. But its insane to think they were ever going to do that in the first place. Its like if I contract with someone to burn down your house but then I come put out the fire. Am I your hero?

You cannot even admit that you are ignorant to the fact that tax cuts actually INCREASE revenue, because it broadens economic activity. So why, exactly, could you possibly think that you have any credibility when you spout the usual leftist talking point that every tax cut proposed is "for the rich"??

 

The people that pay the most taxes are exactly the ones that you CALL rich. If you want to stop complaining that every tax cut is "for the rich" how about you stop supporting every tax increase ON the rich?

[IMMensaMind 459]

You appear to have no idea what youre talking about.

Yet another leftist who accuses others of exactly that which they're guilty.

 

I never said that 401ks help the upper class. That would be idiotic. The point is they are the best focking thing the middle class has going for them and supposedly the republicans wanted to take it away so they could hand trillions to the upper class.

I say supposedly because, again, Im convinced this was all a dog and pony show. Now trump looks like a populist and the middle class is so damn happy they get to keep their 401k that they wont even notice or care when they end up taking it in the ass in a different manner. Ultimately the middle class DOES have to take it in the ass to give trillions to the rich in a revenue neutral bill, the only question is the precise mechanism

Yet you cannot support your assertion with facts. Because you never do.

 

Prove your assertion, Worms. Prove that Trump's tax proposal takes money from the middle class.

[Jesus Chrysler 29]

Tomorrow, Trump is going to announce that he is not going to approve of a law where the government kills all puppies.

[IMMensaMind 459]

I think that there is angst that Trump's tax cuts will further shift the burden of paying for things to the middle class. I don't know about you, but that seems like a pretty big deal.

 

I don't deal in angst. I want evidence. What evidence is there to support this 'angst'?

[IGotWorms 3,302]

Is there some way to get MensaMind out of here? Its impossible to have any real discussion with this nut posting 50 ten thousand word screeds in every thread

[IMMensaMind 459]

Is there some way to get MensaMind out of here? Its impossible to have any real discussion with this nut posting 50 ten thousand word screeds in every thread

Try using more than one finger when YOU type, Worms.

 

I am unable to help your inferior ability to express yourself with speed and precision.

 

Oh, and rank irony. I can only presume that you think posting 'ten thousand word screeds' is some sort of liberal white privilege you enjoy, but no one else:

 

 

Let me break it down for you.

The Republicans want to pass a huge gift to the rich. Thats what all their campaign contributions have been for. This was the end goal of folks like the Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson. Going back to the tea party, this was their plan.

Problem is the democrats can filibuster unless you do it through reconciliation. And if you do reconciliation then you cant blow up the budget deficit short term.

So what to do? I mean if you just came right out with it and raised taxes on the middle class to hand trillions to the rich... that would not go over well.

So one idea thats supposedly been floated is well drastically lower the cap on 401k contributions. Like PFB said, the current cap is $18k for most people then $22k for those over a certain age (I think 55) so they can try to catch up if they need to. (Side note: good focking luck with that. If you miss out on decades of compound interest, youre screwed.)

These supposed proposals were that theyd lower it to like $2,500 per year which is focking insanely low. No one could ever properly save for retirement at that rate.

Oh well gee then youd just put it in a Roth, which is I guess what they were supposedly going to try and sell. If you use a Roth account then you pay taxes on your income like always. However when you draw it out later in retirement it is not taxed. People typically use them as a small aside to 401ks to protect themselves in case their tax rate is higher in retirement than now. Although that seemingly would rarely be the case since you almost always make more money, maybe much more money, while working than in retirement. The other sucky part about Roths is since the money is taxed immediately you have less youre investing up front which means less compound interest and compound interest is how you really grow that nest egg.

But heres why some crazy thinkers on the right like the idea: it gets you a huge pot of tax money from the middle class up front (to pay for those tax cuts for the mega wealthy). Later the budget will be completely focked when those people are drawing money out of their Roths tax free but Republicans dont care. All they need is a bill that looks revenue neural in the first 10 years so they can use reconciliation.

So its a terrible deal for the middle class and people wouldve been extremely pissed. 401k contributions are sacrosanct to middle class saving. Its the only way most middle class people can truly get ahead and even then if doesnt actually do you much good til youre 65 and thats assuming you dont drop dead before then. But hey, its the best we got. And they supposedly wanted to take it away.

So the purpose of this thread is I think it was all a ruse to up trumps supposed populist image. He comes out and says we aint touching your 401ks so supposedly he looks good. But its insane to think they were ever going to do that in the first place. Its like if I contract with someone to burn down your house but then I come put out the fire. Am I your hero?

You possess by far the longest response in this thread. Do you think your hypocrisy and whiny nature isn't transparently obvious or something?

 

[TimmySmith 2,782]

You appear to have no idea what youre talking about.

 

I never said that 401ks help the upper class. That would be idiotic. The point is they are the best focking thing the middle class has going for them and supposedly the republicans wanted to take it away so they could hand trillions to the upper class.

 

I say supposedly because, again, Im convinced this was all a dog and pony show. Now trump looks like a populist and the middle class is so damn happy they get to keep their 401k that they wont even notice or care when they end up taking it in the ass in a different manner. Ultimately the middle class DOES have to take it in the ass to give trillions to the rich in a revenue neutral bill, the only question is the precise mechanism

You say I don't know, then you parrot what I said. I really think you have lost your mind.

[IGotWorms 3,302]

You say I don't know, then you parrot what I said. I really think you have lost your mind.

So were in agreement then? Nice!

[Baker Boy 1,479]

The Democrats reveled their new simplified tax plan today. It is just two lines.

 

 

1. How much money did you make last year?

 

2. Send it in.

[Mr. Hand 482]

Is there some way to get MensaMind out of here? Its impossible to have any real discussion with this nut posting 50 ten thousand word screeds in every thread

Do you need a safe place? Such a snowflake.

[edjr 5,547]

I feel like we are complaining for the sake of complaining.

 

The American Way

 

Or I should say

 

The Social Media Way

[Strike 3,950]

Let me break it down for you.

 

The Republicans want to pass a huge gift to the rich. Thats what all their campaign contributions have been for. This was the end goal of folks like the Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson. Going back to the tea party, this was their plan.

 

Problem is the democrats can filibuster unless you do it through reconciliation. And if you do reconciliation then you cant blow up the budget deficit short term.

 

So what to do? I mean if you just came right out with it and raised taxes on the middle class to hand trillions to the rich... that would not go over well.

 

So one idea thats supposedly been floated is well drastically lower the cap on 401k contributions. Like PFB said, the current cap is $18k for most people then $22k for those over a certain age (I think 55) so they can try to catch up if they need to. (Side note: good focking luck with that. If you miss out on decades of compound interest, youre screwed.)

 

These supposed proposals were that theyd lower it to like $2,500 per year which is focking insanely low. No one could ever properly save for retirement at that rate.

 

Oh well gee then youd just put it in a Roth, which is I guess what they were supposedly going to try and sell. If you use a Roth account then you pay taxes on your income like always. However when you draw it out later in retirement it is not taxed. People typically use them as a small aside to 401ks to protect themselves in case their tax rate is higher in retirement than now. Although that seemingly would rarely be the case since you almost always make more money, maybe much more money, while working than in retirement. The other sucky part about Roths is since the money is taxed immediately you have less youre investing up front which means less compound interest and compound interest is how you really grow that nest egg.

 

But heres why some crazy thinkers on the right like the idea: it gets you a huge pot of tax money from the middle class up front (to pay for those tax cuts for the mega wealthy). Later the budget will be completely focked when those people are drawing money out of their Roths tax free but Republicans dont care. All they need is a bill that looks revenue neural in the first 10 years so they can use reconciliation.

 

So its a terrible deal for the middle class and people wouldve been extremely pissed. 401k contributions are sacrosanct to middle class saving. Its the only way most middle class people can truly get ahead and even then if doesnt actually do you much good til youre 65 and thats assuming you dont drop dead before then. But hey, its the best we got. And they supposedly wanted to take it away.

 

So the purpose of this thread is I think it was all a ruse to up trumps supposed populist image. He comes out and says we aint touching your 401ks so supposedly he looks good. But its insane to think they were ever going to do that in the first place. Its like if I contract with someone to burn down your house but then I come put out the fire. Am I your hero?

 

This is actually a fairly good post. But you're wrong on the bolded. A ROTH isn't to help if your tax rate is higher in retirement than it is now. It's to help protect you if you're running up against the next tax bracket, period. Let's say we have tax brackets of 10% and 15%. The amount of money you need to live would put you just over the 15% threshold. With a ROTH you can lower your taxable income level back in to the 10% bracket.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I don't deal in angst. I want evidence. What evidence is there to support this 'angst'?

 

There is angst anytime there is change. Let me do the math for you.

 

Trump wants to "cut" taxes, but is not decreasing spending and is looking to actually increase spending in some areas like the military. Since we already spend more than we bring in, then the deficit goes up and/or the tax cuts don't happen. Hence, angst.

[Jesus Chrysler 29]

The Democrats reveled their new simplified tax plan today. It is just two lines.

 

 

1. How much money did you make last year?

 

2. Send it in.

get a new writer

[12th Man 884]

Tomorrow, Trump is going to announce that he is not going to approve of a law where the government kills all puppies.

Shut up Newbie.

[drobeski 3,061]

Is there some way to get MensaMind out of here? Its impossible to have any real discussion with this nut posting 50 ten thousand word screeds in every thread

report him like you guys do with everyone who isn't an Obama nut hugger.

[IGotWorms 3,302]

report him like you guys do with everyone who isn't an Obama nut hugger.

1. Obama is gone. Yes Im sad too

 

2. Never reported anyone due to political stuff. Only reporting I remember was some guy who was outright using the n word in every post about black people some years back. No it wasnt Wiffle

[Mike Honcho 4,010]

You cannot even admit that you are ignorant to the fact that tax cuts actually INCREASE revenue, because it broadens economic activity. So why, exactly, could you possibly think that you have any credibility when you spout the usual leftist talking point that every tax cut proposed is "for the rich"??

 

The people that pay the most taxes are exactly the ones that you CALL rich. If you want to stop complaining that every tax cut is "for the rich" how about you stop supporting every tax increase ON the rich?

 

 

[Baker Boy 1,479]

The Democrats talk about adding to a deficit they created and added $10 Trillion to over the last 8 years and never said a word. The middle class did not see on dime of that money. Cut some spending if you are worried about the deficit. It is time that the other half of this country start putting in instead of taking out!

[Baker Boy 1,479]

Can someone tell me how much this huge tax break to the rich is and where these breaks are coming from?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Can someone tell me how much this huge tax break to the rich is and where these breaks are coming from?

 

Well you can start with the cutting of corporate tax from 35% down to 20%. My guess is that will be a little money going to the top 1%.

 

I am agreement that we need to cut spending, BTW.

[Baker Boy 1,479]

Well you can start with the cutting of corporate tax from 35% down to 20%. My guess is that will be a little money going to the top 1%.

 

I am agreement that we need to cut spending, BTW.

 

How is that a cut for the rich? Are they all going to give themselves raises? Corporate taxes are paid by the consumer. Stocks will go up but over 50% of the country is in the market so this benefits the working man.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

How is that a cut for the rich? Are they all going to give themselves raises? Corporate taxes are paid by the consumer. Stocks will go up but over 50% of the country is in the market so this benefits the working man.

 

Oh, so prices will go down then? Sure, they will.

 

Not every corporation is a public company.