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Lol, like clockwork a geek comes to tell us how perfect their life is. Life is not black and white. There is gray area.

Three guys in a row - all to the left - try to characterize what I wrote, and do it inaccurately. Is it intentional? I never said my life is perfect; the best I did was say it is 23 years that I've been married, it is 'successful', and my wife is the 'salt of the earth'.

 

You chose to take that push it to mean something black and white: "perfect". You did that. Not me. Nothing is perfect. Marriage is work, as is just about anything worthwhile in this life.

 

And then TBBOM chimes in and - again, in black and white - asserts that I'm certain about everything. Inventing crap again, and doing it in an absolutist way that you claim to revile.

 

Hypocrisy. I'm not certain about everything. I'm very opinionated; I don't draw conclusions lightly, and - once I do - you'd better have a really compelling argument if you're going to attempt to take me on in a debate. I don't post opinions about which I don't feel strongly, and if I do, I say so (like I did in the Djgb flame thread, where I thought - I believe I put it something like: "I mildly disagree".

 

And - gosh: if those who are trying to make this personal about it don't feel terribly 'certain' about things, why are they attacking so vitriolically?

 

None of you are any different about the strengths of your opinion. They're on defense because they're losing the argument, and the part of them that knows it lashes out and injects personal attacks, which aren't helping.

 

Can someone be happy with their life, happy with their marriage, and happy with their kids while also acknowledging that kids have taken a toll on their marriage? Seems common sense to me. It's possible to acknowledge that, while also being happy with your decision to have kids.

I never said otherwise. What I said was what you're alluding to: happy having kids - even after the 'toll' that you experienced (or not) it taking - still means that having the kids was on balance the decision you'd make again.

 

"Happy with your decision to have kids". That statement belies a support of my contention, and not Pen's. That's my one and only point; anywhere else this conversation has been dragged is due to an attempt to mischaracterize what I wrote.

 

My pole is simple: if Pen isn't willing to cede that most people would say that they wouldn't want to go back to a reality without kids, that means they prefer their reality with kids.

 

And that's the win, right there. It means that his point is not defensible.

 

That should be easily ceded, but...no. We have people kicking and screaming in revulsion to that most simple of observations, and turning things personal to convince themselves that their positions are superior. Because they're superior.

 

But that's funny too. They're not. I suspect they know that they're not. We're all human; we all have weaknesses. But ffs: if you cannot cede that you love your kids more than life itself (and most parents do), and that you'd NEVER wish them to disappear once they've come into your life and enhanced it - and your marriage - beyond comparison, then don't try to blame other people and mischaracterize who they are and what they believe.

 

The problem is with you. It's not hard to figure out.

 

I have never heard anyone (except you) claim that kids make things easier, not harder in a marriage. You have this weird view of the world, where there is no grey area. Very odd.

Easier? Where did I say that? Please quote the line. You're mischaracterizing again. I said enhance, and now I've said it twice.

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Except the pole question is flawed and so skewed to your point of view it further shows you arrogant attitude in discussions. Carry on. :lol:

Yeah. You're the picture of humility here. The pole question is not flawed; cuts to the heart of the matter. Feel free to explain how you think it is flawed, for the lulz.

 

I'll even go one further: Pen is characterizing that plenty of people are happier without kids. Tell you what: we can restrict our moneyed pole to those respondents who intended to have childless marriages, and that circumstance changed. By accident, or however.

 

Now ask them if they'd go back.

 

Go ahead, fat boy. Tell us how you think those people would answer.

 

With a straight face, please.

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Yeah. You're the picture of humility here. The pole question is not flawed; cuts to the heart of the matter. Feel free to explain how you think it is flawed, for the lulz.

 

I'll even go one further: Pen is characterizing that plenty of people are happier without kids. Tell you what: we can restrict our moneyed pole to those respondents who intended to have childless marriages, and that circumstance changed. By accident, or however.

 

Now ask them if they'd go back.

 

Go ahead, fat boy. Tell us how you think those people would answer.

 

With a straight face, please.

You are asking people with kids that they have spent (presumably) a considerable time bonding with whether they would wish them gone. That is patently absurd and really has nothing to do with it.

 

Again, people can and are happy without kids. Sometimes by choice and sometime by circumstance.

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Along the same lines, I always hear people say marriage is work.

 

My previous marriage would definitely fit that description, but not my current one.

 

After years of believing that's just the way things are, I'm here to tell you it doesn't have to be that way.

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The American male has become a whiny bich. I hold most of you in contempt. When you become a father you stfu and get it done. End of story. You forfeit the right to whine and complain when you seek out that responsibility. Man up and shut up.

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Along the same lines, I always hear people say marriage is work.

 

My previous marriage would definitely fit that description, but not my current one.

 

After years of believing that's just the way things are, I'm here to tell you it doesn't have to be that way.

How so?

 

I mean what makes your current major effortless whereas before it was not?

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You are asking people with kids that they have spent (presumably) a considerable time bonding with whether they would wish them gone. That is patently absurd and really has nothing to do with it.

Please explain how "that has nothing to do with it" when my point is that people with kids have enhanced lives, and the "marriage is better without kids" statement is flatly ridiculous. It is as definitive a black and white statement from someone who then complained about black and white statements as one could make on the topic.

 

This was started because Pen chose to definitively say the following:

 

Married life is better, especially when you don't have kids.

Now.

 

Had he backtracked from that rather incendiary and challenging statement right away, I wouldn't still be posting; we'd go our separate ways. But this is a forum for discussion/debate/whatever. But he chose to do so late - after I had already posted to disagree strongly with that statement (and why), and then we had people like you now trying to take issue with my response to such a statement, mostly by turning into fiction.

 

 

Again, people can and are happy without kids. Sometimes by choice and sometime by circumstance.

Again: not once did I ever say anything to the contrary. What I said was that nearly no one who has children regrets doing so; they enhance whatever bond you already have with your spouse. Did I say that such a responsibility didn't have challenges; doesn't result in far less free time and far less disposable income, etc? Of course not.

 

But all sorts of claims about what I said have been made, and are ridiculous.

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Along the same lines, I always hear people say marriage is work.

My previous marriage would definitely fit that description, but not my current one.

After years of believing that's just the way things are, I'm here to tell you it doesn't have to be that way.

I can only speak for myself on this, because I was one of those who said it was 'work'. By 'work', I mean things like: I've been on a long business trip/worked 14 hours straight/am exhausted/whatever...but it's an important day (let's say: her birthday).

 

I have to put in the effort to celebrate it; to show her a special day and make a special effort, even if I'm beat.

 

You have to constantly be able to displace your own angers, etc and sacrifice those things for making your spouse feel like the most valuable and important human being in the world.

 

The longer you're married, the more 'work' that becomes - and that's natural, because your initial zeal and electricity in the relationship gradually gets replaced with a comfort level that you cannot allow to slink into complacency.

 

That takes work.

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Shutting off the debate:

 

The following are two statements; one defensible and one not:

 

1. I am married and I am happier without kids.

 

2. I am married and I am happy without kids.

 

I have no issue with #2. There is nothing to debate there.

 

But #1 is indefensible. No one can possibly legitimately say that they are able to determine that they are happier without kids without actually having the uniquely personal experience of having kids.

 

There is nothing else like it. I can assume that only a very tiny percentage of those who have had kids would actually willfully give up that most close of relationships and return to something without it.

 

My dad used to say "kids: I wouldn't take a million dollars for any of you. But I wouldn't pay a nickel for another one of you either."

 

It's a one-way street. Once you create that person who unconditionally loves you, you do the same, and nothing else you had before compares.

 

Not even your love for your spouse. Not the love of your parents/brothers/sisters/anyone. Your kids are #1.

 

We're not talking about exceptions here, and I'm not suggesting that the above is true in every single case. If someone wants to claim that the above isn't generally true, I'm all ears.

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How so?

 

I mean what makes your current major effortless whereas before it was not?

There are so many differences, but here are a few:

 

First of all, my wife is literally the most genuinely nice person on the planet, so that makes things easy for me. That's not to say she's some sort of pushover. She just has a very strong moral character that drives everything she does. Her influence on me has made me a much better person.

 

We also have a high level of appreciation for each other, and what we each bring to the relationship. Even mundane stuff like household chores.

 

I cook everything and take care of everything on the exterior of the house, plus all home repairs. She cleans the entire interior, does all the laundry and dishes.

 

She drops of the kids at school and I pick them up.

 

We make time for each of us to do the things we enjoy individually without hassling each other about it.

 

We're also very compatible regarding our career and family goals and the way we raise our kids.

 

And I know this is gonna sound like the Will Ferrell lover sketch, but we are very in tune with each other sexually. That's partly because everything else in our relationship is so strong.

 

In my previous marriage, I, at times, resented her and her bullsh!t so much that I didn't even wanna bang her. That just never happens now.

 

None of this feels like work to me. And it's not really even compromising. We both want the same things out of our marriage so we give it to each other.

 

 

Also, she's not crazy.

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Most of the married without children couples I know ended up with multiple pets, and they end up treating

the pets like their kids- they even refer to them as “fur babies”...I don’t really get that

They're psychologically replacing something in the hole that they feel.

 

Because they know what they're subconsciously missing, even if their pride would not allow them to consciously admit it, or their fear of the unknown prevent it.

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There are so many differences, but here are a few:

 

First of all, my wife is literally the most genuinely nice person on the planet, so that makes things easy for me. That's not to say she's some sort of pushover. She just has a very strong moral character that drives everything she does. Her influence on me has made me a much better person.

 

We also have a high level of appreciation for each other, and what we each bring to the relationship. Even mundane stuff like household chores.

 

I cook everything and take care of everything on the exterior of the house, plus all home repairs. She cleans the entire interior, does all the laundry and dishes.

 

She drops of the kids at school and I pick them up.

 

We make time for each of us to do the things we enjoy individually without hassling each other about it.

 

We're also very compatible regarding our career and family goals and the way we raise our kids.

 

And I know this is gonna sound like the Will Ferrell lover sketch, but we are very in tune with each other sexually. That's partly because everything else in our relationship is so strong.

 

In my previous marriage, I, at times, resented her and her bullsh!t so much that I didn't even wanna bang her. That just never happens now.

 

None of this feels like work to me. And it's not really even compromising. We both want the same things out of our marriage so we give it to each other.

 

 

Also, she's not crazy.

Thats interesting.

 

How long have you been married this go around? Was she married before?

 

Do you have kids together or are these kids from the previous marriage? If kids from previous marriage, whose are they?

 

I do sometimes think, if I were starting over I think I could end up in a better spot. Find someone whose foibles I am able to forgive more and whose strengths are important to me. And vice versa.

 

Not having kids together would probably help. Seems to me its having kids and those early years after that leads to a lot of the resentment you hear about in marriages.

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Thats interesting.

 

How long have you been married this go around? Was she married before?

 

Do you have kids together or are these kids from the previous marriage? If kids from previous marriage, whose are they?

 

I do sometimes think, if I were starting over I think I could end up in a better spot. Find someone whose foibles I am able to forgive more and whose strengths are important to me. And vice versa.

 

Not having kids together would probably help. Seems to me its having kids and those early years after that leads to a lot of the resentment you hear about in marriages.

12 years.

 

Had our boys 2 years after we were married. She was never married before. She's also 10 years younger than me.

 

My daughter from my first marriage is 28. She never lived with us.

 

IMO, if one or the other wasn't ready to make the lifestyle changes having children requires, the marriage will definitely suffer.

 

You have to really both want kids and want to be together as a family most of the time.

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The American male has become a whiny bich. I hold most of you in contempt. When you become a father you stfu and get it done. End of story. You forfeit the right to whine and complain when you seek out that responsibility. Man up and shut up.

Ill agree with you to an extent. The key words of your post are seek out that responsibility.

 

Its a huge responsibility that changes your life in every way possible. It should be taken on only after some serious thought. Once you take it on, willingly or accidentally, you do it to the very damn best of your ability. To do less makes you a pos.

 

But talking of happiness isnt some sissy thing worthy of your contempt. For one thing, a father who isnt happy and is just stfu and getting it done probably is a pretty sh!tty father. I know mine was.

 

My dad didnt want kids. He thought he and mom had a life planned that involved other things. Career. Travel. Etc.

 

A few years After the wedding, she started pounding the drum for kids. He relented and I, and later my sister, entered the picture.

 

My dad is very narcissistic. Everything has to revolve around him all the time. So he quickly got unhappy that he wasnt the most important thing in moms life anymore. He still b!tched about that, 30 years after the divorce.

 

He was just the type of person who fundamentally isnt cut out for that kind of responsibility. It requires a lot of empathy, patience, and willingness to sacrifice your desires for someone else. He doesnt have that. Im not throwing stones. Many people dont. Im not sure I do either. Which is why I chose not to have children.

 

I think I could be a good father, and be happy doing it. But I view it as the riskier of the two roads. It would ratchet up the stress and financial pressure. Make it harder to have the kind of relationship I want with my wife. And test my patience to the limit and then some.

 

The other road is safer. I know I can be happy without it. So to me, it was an easy call.

 

My brother has pretty much outright said he loves his kids, but wishes he hadnt done it. Of course, he didnt mean to either time. I think he looks back at what might have been a lot.

 

I know others that seem miserable in that life. I know others that wouldnt have it any other way. Its simply a personal choice based on your circumstances.

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Ill agree with you to an extent. The key words of your post are seek out that responsibility.

 

Its a huge responsibility that changes your life in every way possible. It should be taken on only after some serious thought. Once you take it on, willingly or accidentally, you do it to the very damn best of your ability. To do less makes you a pos.

 

But talking of happiness isnt some sissy thing worthy of your contempt. For one thing, a father who isnt happy and is just stfu and getting it done probably is a pretty sh!tty father. I know mine was.

 

My dad didnt want kids. He thought he and mom had a life planned that involved other things. Career. Travel. Etc.

 

A few years After the wedding, she started pounding the drum for kids. He relented and I, and later my sister, entered the picture.

 

My dad is very narcissistic. Everything has to revolve around him all the time. So he quickly got unhappy that he wasnt the most important thing in moms life anymore. He still b!tched about that, 30 years after the divorce.

 

He was just the type of person who fundamentally isnt cut out for that kind of responsibility. It requires a lot of empathy, patience, and willingness to sacrifice your desires for someone else. He doesnt have that. Im not throwing stones. Many people dont. Im not sure I do either. Which is why I chose not to have children.

 

I think I could be a good father, and be happy doing it. But I view it as the riskier of the two roads. It would ratchet up the stress and financial pressure. Make it harder to have the kind of relationship I want with my wife. And test my patience to the limit and then some.

 

The other road is safer. I know I can be happy without it. So to me, it was an easy call.

 

My brother has pretty much outright said he loves his kids, but wishes he hadnt done it. Of course, he didnt mean to either time. I think he looks back at what might have been a lot.

 

I know others that seem miserable in that life. I know others that wouldnt have it any other way. Its simply a personal choice based on your circumstances.

RP is a cunt who cant handle adult conversation. Just ignore him

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I can appreciate most of the responses in this thread. Much of the back and forth stems from trying to determine whether marriage is better with or without children vs personal happiness with or without children. There is no right answer.

 

I didnt have an instant connection with my kids. Ive heard from numerous people that as soon as they laid eyes on their kids, their life changed. I didnt have that. However, after some time...a year, give or take...the connection I developed with my kids is something I cant explain.

 

Thanks for the responses geeks.

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RP is a cunt who cant handle adult conversation. Just ignore him

Worms can't handle being an adult without a conversation. Suck it up cup cake. No one GAF about your happiness. That's for women and children.

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Worms can't handle being an adult without a conversation. Suck it up cup cake. No one GAF about your happiness. That's for women and children.

HT, Im not trolling here. Swear to god. Im genuinely curious.

 

Do you really believe that? That a mans happiness is irrelevant?

 

I mean sure, I get that its secondary to your duty. The first, last, and only rule of being a man, to my mind, is a man does what needs be done. Period. No matter what it costs, how much he hates it, or what it takes.

 

But surely you see that without deriving some happiness from it, you are unlikely to be a very good husband and father?

 

While being a provider is a mans first and most important duty, he is more than that. He is supposed to be a lover, friend, and confidant to his wife. An example to his children. How does one do that if one is miserable and takes no joy from it?

 

Do you raise your son to expect a life without happiness?

 

Pretty grim way to look at life I think.

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RP is a cunt who cant handle adult conversation. Just ignore him

This is a really adult response that in no way reflects any hypocrisy or tone-deafness on your part. Kudos.

 

:blink:

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HT, Im not trolling here. Swear to god. Im genuinely curious.

 

Do you really believe that? That a mans happiness is irrelevant?

 

I mean sure, I get that its secondary to your duty. The first, last, and only rule of being a man, to my mind, is a man does what needs be done. Period. No matter what it costs, how much he hates it, or what it takes.

 

But surely you see that without deriving some happiness from it, you are unlikely to be a very good husband and father?

 

While being a provider is a mans first and most important duty, he is more than that. He is supposed to be a lover, friend, and confidant to his wife. An example to his children. How does one do that if one is miserable and takes no joy from it?

 

Do you raise your son to expect a life without happiness?

 

Pretty grim way to look at life I think.

 

There was a time, not long ago, when a man derived happiness from providing or his family. We've created a narcissistic society where people are supposed to ignore all others and just consider their own needs. It's quite sad. :(

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RP is a cunt who cant handle adult conversation. Just ignore him

 

Snowflake! :lol:

Took a while, but this thread has now devolved as well :wave:

We thank you for your invaluable contribution and steadfast attempts to keep the thread on track. :thumbsup:

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There was a time, not long ago, when a man derived happiness from providing or his family. We've created a narcissistic society where people are supposed to ignore all others and just consider their own needs. It's quite sad. :(

That is exactly how I feel. I get my enjoyment when I can, but they come first, and you're damn right I'm going to put my head down and plow through.

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There was a time, not long ago, when a man derived happiness from providing or his family. We've created a narcissistic society where people are supposed to ignore all others and just consider their own needs. It's quite sad. :(

Thats largely the mythology of the prior generations. Hell, I think you can easily argue that fathers of the 50s and 60s put themselves first far more than fathers of today do.

 

How many of them were drunks? Had mistresses? Were out golfing and bowling and whatever all the time? Were by and large absentee parents?

 

Hell, the stereotypical family of that era was all about dads concenience. Bring me my pipe and slippers, have dinner on the table, speak when spoken to, and all of that.

 

Seems today, fathers are much more likely to be there at the games and activities, and all of that, than yesteryear.

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HT, Im not trolling here. Swear to god. Im genuinely curious.

 

Do you really believe that? That a mans happiness is irrelevant?

 

I mean sure, I get that its secondary to your duty. The first, last, and only rule of being a man, to my mind, is a man does what needs be done. Period. No matter what it costs, how much he hates it, or what it takes.

 

But surely you see that without deriving some happiness from it, you are unlikely to be a very good husband and father?

 

While being a provider is a mans first and most important duty, he is more than that. He is supposed to be a lover, friend, and confidant to his wife. An example to his children. How does one do that if one is miserable and takes no joy from it?

 

Do you raise your son to expect a life without happiness?

 

Pretty grim way to look at life I think.

Jerry summed it up for me. I get plenty of happiness.

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Jerry summed it up for me. I get plenty of happiness.

Thats good. Thats how it should be. Im just saying that seeing to your own happiness once in a while is not only ok, its necessary to being good for your family.

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Along the same lines, I always hear people say marriage is work.

 

My previous marriage would definitely fit that description, but not my current one.

 

After years of believing that's just the way things are, I'm here to tell you it doesn't have to be that way.

Marriage isn't effortless, but it doesn't have to be very difficult either. I'm amazed by some of the sh!t my friends put up with, because they assume it is the price of admission into a committed relationship.

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Please explain how "that has nothing to do with it" when my point is that people with kids have enhanced lives, and the "marriage is better without kids" statement is flatly ridiculous. It is as definitive a black and white statement from someone who then complained about black and white statements as one could make on the topic.

 

This was started because Pen chose to definitively say the following:

 

Now.

 

Had he backtracked from that rather incendiary and challenging statement right away, I wouldn't still be posting; we'd go our separate ways. But this is a forum for discussion/debate/whatever. But he chose to do so late - after I had already posted to disagree strongly with that statement (and why), and then we had people like you now trying to take issue with my response to such a statement, mostly by turning into fiction.

 

 

Again: not once did I ever say anything to the contrary. What I said was that nearly no one who has children regrets doing so; they enhance whatever bond you already have with your spouse. Did I say that such a responsibility didn't have challenges; doesn't result in far less free time and far less disposable income, etc? Of course not.

 

But all sorts of claims about what I said have been made, and are ridiculous.

I didn't backtrack - I stand by my initial statement, but don't want to waste bandwidth arguing with you. If you want to accept that as a victory, have at it :first: .

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I can appreciate most of the responses in this thread. Much of the back and forth stems from trying to determine whether marriage is better with or without children vs personal happiness with or without children. There is no right answer.

 

I didnt have an instant connection with my kids. Ive heard from numerous people that as soon as they laid eyes on their kids, their life changed. I didnt have that. However, after some time...a year, give or take...the connection I developed with my kids is something I cant explain.

 

Thanks for the responses geeks.

Sorry I got caught up in that nonsense. But I'm still curious, why would you consider a prenup?

 

I agree it kinda defeats the purpose of marriage, much more so than choosing not to procreate.

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Sorry I got caught up in that nonsense. But I'm still curious, why would you consider a prenup?

 

I agree it kinda defeats the purpose of marriage, much more so than choosing not to procreate.

Asset protection.

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Sorry I got caught up in that nonsense. But I'm still curious, why would you consider a prenup?

 

I agree it kinda defeats the purpose of marriage, much more so than choosing not to procreate.

If its a second marriage, especially if there are kids from prior marriages, it makes sense.

 

The cold lawyer trained part of me always thinks of such things. For example, my dad told my brother and sister and I in no uncertain terms that he expected us to protect whatever assets they leave us in from our respective spouses in the event of a divorce. No prenup is needed for that though.

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Asset protection.

Of course. Is there any other reason for a prenup?

If its a second marriage, especially if there are kids from prior marriages, it makes sense.

 

The cold lawyer trained part of me always thinks of such things. For example, my dad told my brother and sister and I in no uncertain terms that he expected us to protect whatever assets they leave us in from our respective spouses in the event of a divorce. No prenup is needed for that though.

Yeah, I dated a lawyer (34B) once. Her thought process was pretty disturbing - always worried about liability, injury and being taking advantage of. A pretty sh!tty way to go through life IMO. Especially wrt relationships, which fundamentally hinge on trust.

 

I thought pre-nups were only for fabulously wealthy (and cynical) people. Even if you are protecting your kid's inheritance, it still seems like a defeatist approach to marriage.

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This thread was a fun read actually. Some nice debating... good thouhts on either side.

 

:thumbsup: Genuinely a good thread Geekz.

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Even as a dad and husband, I make time for myself. I get to the gym 3x a week, I read books, maybe once a month I get drinks with coworkers on a Friday. My wife and I get out for dinner with friends or alone every couple of months.

 

I think your first duty is to your family but I dont believe once you have kids your own happiness is irrelevant and your own life ends. I think being an interesting content person with your own friends and interests is actually modeling good behavior for your kids.

 

My own parents were like that and my dad is the hardest worker Ive ever known.

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Of course. Is there any other reason for a prenup?

Im confused. If you knew the answer, why did you bother asking the question?

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