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do demcrats on here actually believe that america should be socialist? dems seems to be backing more and more outright socialists. they love AOC. i honestly dont get it. would you vote for a self proclaimed communist as well? the only explanation seems to be that they really do hate america. amiright?

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do demcrats on here actually believe that america should be socialist? dems seems to be backing more and more outright socialists. they love AOC. i honestly dont get it. would you vote for a self proclaimed communist as well? the only explanation seems to be that they really do hate america. amiright?

More and more people thinking the gubmint should be bloated and provide almost everything for everybody. Im mostly conservative but could concede some type of healthcare. The medical/insurance industry is in the toilet.

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In America, it's just a matter of degrees in appearance. There's some people who claim to love the free market system are the same people who have no problem with the government sending out a trillion dollars worth of corporate welfare to big businesses. Then this big businesses take their huge cut at the executive level, then trickle down the rest to their employees.

 

Hell, virtually every branch of our military has turned down multi billion-dollar weapon systems because they're simply not needed. But the politicians say no no no, you need yet another 15 trillion dollar blah blah...

 

So, do you supplement health care for example? Or do you buy 8 aircraft carriers, let corporate executives take their hundred-million-dollar bonuses and they're wastefulness, then trickle money down to people?

 

I'm not saying I'm for or against either. I think both have their place. But anybody who thinks it there is some great bright line between Republicans and Democrats when it comes to government welfare are kidding themselves.

 

the truth is, it's all mental masturbation. We need a balanced budget agreement. Some kind of Paygo system. Then, wether politicians want to supplement health insurance or fund the next space force, at least you're going to have to make some hard decisions as to what stays and goes.

 

We're going absolutely batshit on our spending right now. They can't last forever.

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The Dissolution of the Monasteries under King Henry the 8th is a typical end product of socialism:

 

https://en.wikipedia...the_Monasteries

 

Prior to the Dissolution in 1536, England, Wales and Ireland had developed a complex social safety net of monasteries, priories, convents and friaries. One man in 50 worked at these establishments basically as social workers. The system provided extensive help to the poor and needy including free food, shelter and clothes. They provided free health care and free education. They acted as free hotels for travelers. They were funded by large donations and grew wealthy and powerful.

 

King Henry the 8th needed to fund his wars so he dissolved the entire system over a 6 year period and confiscated the wealth. He passed the Act of Supremacy making him head of the Church to take the money.

 

Henry slowed played it by (1) spreading vicious rumors of corruption about the Church (2) pledging to "reform" the Church and then finally (3) just taking all the money which was the original goal. The result was a vast increase in poverty. In response, Henry toughened vagrant laws to quell revolts.

 

The new laws were not working so Protestants started up a system of Parish centers to help the poor. These new Parish centers were less kind and slowly converted into workhouses that were something similar to modern Chinese sweatshops where the poor worked long hours for meager benefits.

 

It took a few hundred years for England to really recover from all of this.

 

Here's a pic of a ruin of one of the monasteries from 1536:

 

https://dailyhistory...ry_VIII_One.jpg

 

https://dailyhistory...nglish_Society?

 

Its always about the money! Henry would have absolutely no interest in destroying the Catholic Church and start the protestant faith if there was no money in it.

 

Even if you could set up a socialist system that worked, it'll just be corrupted by people who want to steal the money.

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Socialism is political AIDS.

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The means of production owned and operated by the government? No way.

 

A higher tax rate or Medicare for all? Sure I am open to it.

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A higher tax rate or Medicare for all? Sure I am open to it.

 

People that qualify for Earned Income Credit don't get a vote. Sit back and enjoy the debate.

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The means of production owned and operated by the government? No way.

 

A higher tax rate or Medicare for all? Sure I am open to it.

 

why, why do you want the government to have more control of our lives

 

they up everything they touch

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why, why do you want the government to have more control of our lives

 

they ###### up everything they touch

Meh. Most things are done better by private industry. I dont think healthcare is one of them. I also think somebody has to pay the bills.

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Meh. Most things are done better by private industry. I dont think healthcare is one of them. I also think somebody has to pay the bills.

 

there isn't one that that is done better by the government

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there isn't one that that is done better by the government

Military? Public infrastructure? Border security? Law enforcement?

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Military? Public infrastructure? Border security? Law enforcement?

 

exact answers I knew you would bring up

 

Military, Borders, Law Enforcement all fall under 1 category, could it be done better? Absolutely, but we don't have much choice

 

Infrastructure could be far more effecient if maintained by private local companies

 

ever see how long it takes Cal Trans to do something? Holy fock balls. They are paid by the hour, and we end up spending fortunes more. Pay by the job and everyone wins

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exact answers I knew you would bring up

 

Military, Borders, Law Enforcement all fall under 1 category, could it be done better? Absolutely, but we don't have much choice

 

Infrastructure could be far more effecient if maintained by private local companies

 

ever see how long it takes Cal Trans to do something? Holy fock balls. They are paid by the hour, and we end up spending fortunes more. Pay by the job and everyone wins

We dont have much choice on publicly funded infrastructure either. :dunno:

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We dont have much choice on publicly funded infrastructure either. :dunno:

 

I suppose, I guess the only other solution would be private companies bidding which is what goes on anyways for somethings

 

again though, because of the GOVT those contracts are so fricking bloated

 

1954 miles x 5280 (ft/mile) x 40 (how many bricks it takes to build a 16 inch section of wall but round down to 1 ft) =412 million, rebar 1.50 a ft = 825 million

 

labor, lets say 5 billion

 

why does it cost 25 billion to build the wall?

 

these are home depot prices too

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I suppose, I guess the only other solution would be private companies bidding which is what goes on anyways for somethings

 

again though, because of the GOVT those contracts are so fricking bloated

 

1954 miles x 5280 (ft/mile) x 40 (how many bricks it takes to build a 16 inch section of wall but round down to 1 ft) =412 million, rebar 1.50 a ft = 825 million

 

labor, lets say 5 billion

 

why does it cost 25 billion to build the wall?

 

these are home depot prices too

Most government run programs are really just government management of private contractors. There is plenty of fraud and abuse in the public and private sectors. But some things just cant be managed efficiently by the private sector.

 

Right now theyre upgrading what looks like around 30 miles of Interstate I-95 from Philadelphia to NJ. I cant inagine how youd manage to privately bid out the billions of $ going into that kind of project or who would even pay for it without public steering?

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Most government run programs are really just government management of private contractors. There is plenty of fraud and abuse in the public and private sectors. But some things just cant be managed efficiently by the private sector.

 

Dems don't want socialism. the bolded above is very true.

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Meh. Most things are done better by private industry. I dont think healthcare is one of them. I also think somebody has to pay the bills.

i almost agree with you. i know some young people that had some real bad medical problems left with bills that will never be paid. healthcare i can almost be swayed to a semi socialist solution. hell i can't pay any more than im focking paying anyway. for myself and employees. but that's focking it. and i could never vote for a candidate that says they are a socialist. i don't get it.

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Dems don't want socialism. the bolded above is very true.

 

 

Not sure. They might not think they do, and they might say they dont....but the behaviors and utterances sure do fir well into a socialist agenda. I care less about what lies they tell so much as what actions they take.

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why vote for a socialist then?

 

They don't. AOC has won one election, as a rep. We will see if she ever wins again. Or if she could elevate to Senator. Until then, she is very much an outlier. Who else would you consider a socialist?

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i almost agree with you. i know some young people that had some real bad medical problems left with bills that will never be paid. healthcare i can almost be swayed to a semi socialist solution. hell i can't pay any more than im focking paying anyway. for myself and employees. but that's focking it. and i could never vote for a candidate that says they are a socialist. i don't get it.

I think some people on the right side of the aisle tend to use socialism as a catch all term for liberal policies. Even a 100% Medicare for all system wouldnt be socialist unless healthcare providers were all public employees and the govt owned the hospitals and clinics.

 

Herbivore is right nobody wants that. Even people like Bernie who call themselves Democratic Socialists.

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Not sure. They might not think they do, and they might say they dont....but the behaviors and utterances sure do fir well into a socialist agenda. I care less about what lies they tell so much as what actions they take.

 

briefly elaborate..

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The means of production owned and operated by the government? No way.

 

A higher tax rate or Medicare for all? Sure I am open to it.

I'm with this too. Our medical system is a joke. Insurance dictates everything and costs are out of control. Medicine and treatment/care shouldn't be mainly about profit.

 

2 things I've always thought:

 

1. Education should be extremely affordable. It's not. Dosen't have to be free, but it shouldn't leave students with 10's of thousands of debt either. Stop making Education for profit or ran like a business.

 

2. Same as Education. Doesn't have to be free, but a couple day stay, or a routine surgery shouldn't leave you with a bill in the 10's of thousands. Hell, maybe in the 100's. Enough of that.

 

ETA. Education and HC should not be for profit. These are two essential things to help our society grow. It shouldn't bug down our citizens with debt or financial ruin.

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I'm with this too. Our medical system is a joke. Insurance dictates everything and costs are out of control. Medicine and treatment/care shouldn't be mainly about profit.

 

2 things I've always thought:

 

1. Education should be extremely affordable. It's not. Dosen't have to be free, but it shouldn't leave students with 10's of thousands of debt either. Stop making Education for profit or ran like a business.

 

2. Same as Education. Doesn't have to be free, but a couple day stay, or a routine surgery shouldn't leave you with a bill in the 10's of thousands. Hell, maybe in the 100's. Enough of that.

 

:thumbsup:

 

.... my addendum to education is to actually make it free, but require reimbursement via service to our country (with a livable wage). this could create jobs as well.

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Military? Public infrastructure? Border security? Law enforcement?

 

Doesn't the Military pay like $1000 for a toilet seat?

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:thumbsup:

 

.... my addendum to education is to actually make it free, but require reimbursement via service to our country (with a livable wage). this could create jobs as well.

I'm good with this. :thumbsup:

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I'm with this too. Our medical system is a joke. Insurance dictates everything and costs are out of control. Medicine and treatment/care shouldn't be mainly about profit.

 

2 things I've always thought:

 

1. Education should be extremely affordable. It's not. Dosen't have to be free, but it shouldn't leave students with 10's of thousands of debt either. Stop making Education for profit or ran like a business.

 

2. Same as Education. Doesn't have to be free, but a couple day stay, or a routine surgery shouldn't leave you with a bill in the 10's of thousands. Hell, maybe in the 100's. Enough of that.

 

ETA. Education and HC should not be for profit. These are two essential things to help our society grow. It shouldn't bug down our citizens with debt or financial ruin.

 

I spent two weeks in the hospital and had what is probably considered routine surgery to remove 10% of my colon. My total out of pocket was about 2k, including a sh*tload of tests before and after I was admitted to the hospital. I realize it's a popular boogeyman but health insurance companies are not the devil.

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Doesn't the Military pay like $1000 for a toilet seat?

The military is hugely wasteful. They also provide a service that could not possibly be provided solely by the private sector. And quite a bit of military waste is going to private contractors anyway.

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The means of production owned and operated by the government? No way.

 

A higher tax rate or Medicare for all? Sure I am open to it.

Yet you support socialists in gov that want total control. Such a focking troll. Lol

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I spent two weeks in the hospital and had what is probably considered routine surgery to remove 10% of my colon. My total out of pocket was about 2k, including a sh*tload of tests before and after I was admitted to the hospital. I realize it's a popular boogeyman but health insurance companies are not the devil.

You must have great insurance?

 

Company paid? Or you buy your own?

 

Low deductible?

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The military is hugely wasteful. They also provide a service that could not possibly be provided solely by the private sector. And quite a bit of military waste is going to private contractors anyway.

 

The line of thinking I was responding to was whether the government did ANYTHING better than the private sector. The private sector would never pay $1000 for a toilet seat. That is but one example of how the government does a sh*tty job in this area. Whether the private sector could take this over is debatable but there is no question that IF we could find a way to hand this task over to the private sector that the private sector would do a better job at it.

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I spent two weeks in the hospital and had what is probably considered routine surgery to remove 10% of my colon. My total out of pocket was about 2k, including a sh*tload of tests before and after I was admitted to the hospital. I realize it's a popular boogeyman but health insurance companies are not the devil.

I just want to add this. I've worked in the medical field for a couple of decades.

I've personally seen the damage of insurance and costs of medicine to patients with so so insurance. I know it's anecdotal, but I've seen costs ruin people.

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You must have great insurance?

 

Company paid? Or you buy your own?

 

Low deductible?

 

Company provided. But that doesn't matter. My retired Mom passed away recently. The amount of time she spent with doctors over the past year was huge. She was out of pocket less than $100. Again, health insurance companies are not the devil. Many of them are non profit. They're easy to vilify though. It's too bad people don't want to talk about the REAL reasons health care is so expensive.

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I just want to add this. I've worked in the medical field for a couple of decades.

I've personally seen the damage of insurance and costs of medicine to patients with so so insurance. I know it's anecdotal, but I've seen costs ruin people.

 

There is no doubt the cost of health care is a problem. So why aren't we tackling that? It's easier to blame the health insurance companies, who have some of the lowest profit margins of any industry in this country. Not to mention that many of them are non profit organizations who actually do want to help people.

 

If it was so easy why did all the co-ops that Obamacare funded fail? They were supposed to be the answer.

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The line of thinking I was responding to was whether the government did ANYTHING better than the private sector. The private sector would never pay $1000 for a toilet seat. That is but one example of how the government does a sh*tty job in this area. Whether the private sector could take this over is debatable but there is no question that IF we could find a way to hand this task over to the private sector that the private sector would do a better job at it.

If it were possible to have a private military it would be better. Err okay I guess. But in the real world thats not possible and plenty of private industries have waste and grift.

 

Medicare is cheaper than private insurance with higher user satisfaction. Is it safe to say theyre doing healthcare better?

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There is no doubt the cost of health care is a problem. So why aren't we tackling that? It's easier to blame the health insurance companies, who have some of the lowest profit margins of any industry in this country. Not to mention that many of them are non profit organizations who actually do want to help people.

 

If it was so easy why did all the co-ops that Obamacare funded fail? They were supposed to be the answer.

I honestly don't know. How can we force drug companies to lower prices without government intervention? Competition? That hasn't worked. If the government intervenes people yell socialism. I have no clue, but the free market has failed. It's killing our lower middle class/working poor. Premiums are to high. Drug costs are rising. Medical costs in general are rising. It's a complex issue. But imo our health care system is a failure to over half our population. If not more.

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If it were possible to have a private military it would be better. Err okay I guess. But in the real world thats not possible and plenty of private industries have waste and grift.

 

Medicare is cheaper than private insurance with higher user satisfaction. Is it safe to say theyre doing healthcare better?

 

Medicare dictates what rates they will pay to health care providers, who then pass along the difference to the private sector. Some doctors live with it because medicare patients tend to need more care but many don't. My primary care physician stopped taking medicare patients a couple years ago due to the reduced payment amounts.

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