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UPDATE: Ezekiel Elliot saga continues - Suspension back on


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#81 sirensong

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 04:44 PM

There's a reason this franchise leads the league in Home, Blown, Double-digit, leads since 2010. Hell, it's not even close, we have twice as many as the team in 2nd........ and it has nothing to do with Jerry, it has to do with Red not having the sense to make in-game adjustments and manage games.

 

sp the talent void on the defensive side of the football has nothing to do with jerry?  then whose fault is it?

 

we KNOW the problem is the defense.  we know that because during the garrett era, DAL also leads the league in losses when scoring 30+ points.  and garrett isn't a defensive coach--he doesn't adjust the defense or manage the defense.  we know that marinelli is a fantastic defensive coach, who gets more out of his guys than just about anyone else.  so the problem has been--and continues to be--the pathetic talent level of the defensive unit.  we know that garrett wanted to address this: he was gunning for aaron donald, anthony barr, and ryan shazier.  our consolation prizes have been great, but they still don't rectify the most fundamental problem: defensive personnel.

 

that is 100% jerry's department.



#82 brotherbock

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:03 PM

 

it's possible, but if the GM isn't very good, and the HC isn't very good, how does the team stay at .500 while getting completely gutted and rebuilt, then go 12-4 and 13-3 with 2 different QBs?

 

Often not a great division for the first part (.500), and some talented players for the second. 



#83 sirensong

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 06:05 PM

 

Often not a great division for the first part (.500), and some talented players for the second. 

 

so how is it that the other teams in the east go 4-12 or 6-10 while rebuilding?  look at the giants, even with their starting QB.

 

and if there's enough team talent to dominate the regular season despite bad coaching, then the GM is doing a fantastic job.

 

it's lazy to be a hater.  the romo-haters tried to blame everything on him, until they were proven categorically wrong in the last couple of years.  the jarry-haters and garrett-haters try to do the same thing, because they want something simple to blame.  the truth is a lot more complicated.  garrett got his time to rebuild, and he did it without turning the team into a dumpster fire.  jerry gave him the offense that JG had imagined, and 2014 started seeing the payoff (even with an abominably bad defense).  2015 was a writeoff--with no romo to cover for the defense, the structure problem was badly exposed.  2016 saw a bounceback, as the braintrust had time to prepare dak.  and again, the offense carried the defense in a eerily injury-free campaign.

 

but the defense problem just won't go away.  marinelli and lee can only hold the thing together with duct tape and bailing wire for so long, and the lack of player development really started catching up.  the carter gamble didn't pay off.  the gregory gamble didn't pay off.  trading up for mo didn't pay off.  byron kinda paid off, but kinda not.  DLaw didn't pay off until this season.  will jaylon pay off?

 

and DLaw really brings the problem into sharp relief.  you don't want to pay back injuries long term, because they don't go away.  but tagging lawrence will cost $18M.  how can you afford that when you extended collins and re-signed twill?  and even if you do that, how do you pay irving?  he's going to require at least a 2nd round tender.  and byron is closing in on the end of his rookie deal.  are you really going to make him the 5th highest paid safety (the Ttag) after only 2 INTs in 4 years?  but taco will save us, right?

 

i'm just kinda venting now, because this situation is getting really out of hand.  i like jerry, but i fear that i'm starting to see the same old behaviors, especially morphing into a top-heavy roster that has no depth and no defense.



#84 brotherbock

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 06:20 PM

 

so how is it that the other teams in the east go 4-12 or 6-10 while rebuilding?  look at the giants, even with their starting QB.

 

 

Worse talent. 

 

I don't want to get into the middle of much of what you guys are debating. I'm just saying that I see fault in both of these guys. Jerry is a meddling egomaniac who doesn't understand the 'too many cooks' notion--but he's nowhere near as bad a talent evaluator as end-of-life Al Davis was--and Garrett is a guy who can make some good things happen with good players, but makes too many costly mistakes at key moments. The two of you are pointing fingers as if it's impossible that the fault can't lie with both of these guys. I think it does, that's all.



#85 BufordT

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 06:35 PM

Do any of you Cowboy guys make anything of the fact that Rod Smith played 64% of the snaps last week? vs 30 something % for Alf?

 

I know its a tough game to judge since the Cowboys laid an egg.

 

The Eagles have surrendered the 2nd most receptions to RB's this year. 

 

Is it more than possible that Rod Smith becomes fantasy relevant this week??



#86 sirensong

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:08 PM

 

Worse talent. 

 

I don't want to get into the middle of much of what you guys are debating. I'm just saying that I see fault in both of these guys. Jerry is a meddling egomaniac who doesn't understand the 'too many cooks' notion--but he's nowhere near as bad a talent evaluator as end-of-life Al Davis was--and Garrett is a guy who can make some good things happen with good players, but makes too many costly mistakes at key moments. The two of you are pointing fingers as if it's impossible that the fault can't lie with both of these guys. I think it does, that's all.

 

 

i agree that fault lies with them both--neither are perfect, clearly.  but garrett's main shortcoming--reluctance to make adjustments--comes out of his biggest strength: resolute commitment to his plan.  the very best in the business (any business) all share this same trait--that they have to confidence to stick to their convictions even when everything is going to ######.  as nietzsche wrote, 

 

 

Once the decision has been made, close your ear even to the best counter argument: sign of a strong character. Thus an occasional will to stupidity.

 

 

garrett is a consummate planner, but he's still learning eisenhower's proverb: "a plan is nothing; planning is everything".  IOW, JG is still learning how to be both resolute and flexible at the same time.  his resolve gives the team great strength overall, but it costs him in some games.  from an ecosystems analysis perspective, garrett makes the cowboys more stable and more robust, with episodic problems.  it's like a runner who exercises so often that he occasionally hurts himself and misses a race.

 

by comparison, jerry's failures cause systemic problems--like a runner who smokes meth before races, and eventually gets addicted and can't compete anymore.



#87 Beyond Chaos

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:38 PM

Didn't realize this was the Jones vs Garrett/Nietzsche quote thread. 



#88 Beyond Chaos

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:42 PM

Do any of you Cowboy guys make anything of the fact that Rod Smith played 64% of the snaps last week? vs 30 something % for Alf?

 

I know its a tough game to judge since the Cowboys laid an egg.

 

The Eagles have surrendered the 2nd most receptions to RB's this year. 

 

Is it more than possible that Rod Smith becomes fantasy relevant this week??

Not a Cowboys guy, but I'd say Alf's usage is still to be determined based on game flow.  Only thing we know is what will happen when they are down in a game.



#89 brotherbock

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:24 PM

 

 

i agree that fault lies with them both--neither are perfect, clearly.  but garrett's main shortcoming--reluctance to make adjustments--comes out of his biggest strength: resolute commitment to his plan.  the very best in the business (any business) all share this same trait--that they have to confidence to stick to their convictions even when everything is going to ######.  as nietzsche wrote, 

 

 

 

LOL, I love the Nietzsche quote there. Although I'm not sure N was really approving of every part of the 'strong character' he's talking about. He admired the 'will to power' that successful people have, but I'm not sure he completely admired taking it to that extreme.

 

But I get your point about Garrett, and I think that seems accurate.



#90 sirensong

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:51 PM

Didn't realize this was the Jones vs Garrett/Nietzsche quote thread. 

 

a philosophy degree is not always useful for FF, but every now and then...



#91 sirensong

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:53 PM

 

LOL, I love the Nietzsche quote there. Although I'm not sure N was really approving of every part of the 'strong character' he's talking about. He admired the 'will to power' that successful people have, but I'm not sure he completely admired taking it to that extreme.

 

But I get your point about Garrett, and I think that seems accurate.

 

that's exactly the point.  N was saying that great men have the courage of their convictions, but that sometimes it bites them in the ass.  in aristotelian ethics, we would have stubbornness on one end of the spectrum, and spinelessness on the other.  virtue would be finding the mean between extremes, employing phronesis (practical wisdom learned from experience).  aristotle would say that garrett still hews too much towards stubbornness, and needs more experience.



#92 Beyond Chaos

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 02:07 AM

 

a philosophy degree is not always useful for FF, but every now and then...

Yeah, it's rare that Beyond Good and Evil applies to FF or anything for that matter.



#93 brotherbock

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 09:08 AM

 

that's exactly the point.  N was saying that great men have the courage of their convictions, but that sometimes it bites them in the ass.  in aristotelian ethics, we would have stubbornness on one end of the spectrum, and spinelessness on the other.  virtue would be finding the mean between extremes, employing phronesis (practical wisdom learned from experience).  aristotle would say that garrett still hews too much towards stubbornness, and needs more experience.

 

But there was an admiration in Nietzsche for those people who exhibit certain kinds of what Aristotle might have called vices. N is a kind of virtue theorist, but he's not specifically an Aristotelian. He says somewhere that we have to create our own virtues. Lemme try to find that...here you go, from The Antichrist: "A virtue needs to be our own invention, our own most personal need and self-defense: in any other sense, a virtue is just dangerous." His remark elsewhere is that virtue needs to be "free of moral acid". So a coach's virtues shouldn't be targeted at a conventional sort of 'doing well' or 'doing good', but rather at 'coaching sort of goals'. Garrett would have to be stubborn regarding his treatment of his players--coaching hyped up football players, you have to not bend a lot I'd imagine. But different behavior exhibited in different arenas is going to be key for being virtuous, both for Aristotle and N. Stubborn in practice and stubborn during the game are two different things. 

 

But N admired guys like Napoleon and Borgia, in part I think for their unwillingness to bend when it might have helped them.

 

Nietzsche was a weird cat. He might even have liked Jerry Jones!



#94 sirensong

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 03:40 PM

 

But there was an admiration in Nietzsche for those people who exhibit certain kinds of what Aristotle might have called vices. N is a kind of virtue theorist, but he's not specifically an Aristotelian. He says somewhere that we have to create our own virtues. Lemme try to find that...here you go, from The Antichrist: "A virtue needs to be our own invention, our own most personal need and self-defense: in any other sense, a virtue is just dangerous." His remark elsewhere is that virtue needs to be "free of moral acid". So a coach's virtues shouldn't be targeted at a conventional sort of 'doing well' or 'doing good', but rather at 'coaching sort of goals'. Garrett would have to be stubborn regarding his treatment of his players--coaching hyped up football players, you have to not bend a lot I'd imagine. But different behavior exhibited in different arenas is going to be key for being virtuous, both for Aristotle and N. Stubborn in practice and stubborn during the game are two different things. 

 

But N admired guys like Napoleon and Borgia, in part I think for their unwillingness to bend when it might have helped them.

 

Nietzsche was a weird cat. He might even have liked Jerry Jones!

 

yep--the entire conceptual basis of BGE and TSZ is that the admirable man (noble man, bird of prey, etc.) chooses--and owns his choices--rather than allowing the herd to dictate his values.



#95 brotherbock

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 03:43 PM

 

yep--the entire conceptual basis of BGE and TSZ is that the admirable man (noble man, bird of prey, etc.) chooses--and owns his choices--rather than allowing the herd to dictate his values.

 

Except for the horrible poetry at the end of TSZ. 

 

So maybe that's it: if Garrett is creating his own virtues, then maybe he has no vices at all. Creativity and curiosity, right?



#96 seafoam1

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 04:13 PM

My take on all of this is:

Later elliott. Stay out of trouble if you can manage to do that. Loser.

I don't hate the cowboys or love them. Its just hard to win superbowls is all. Just relax.Put a babysitter on elliott. And move past Bryant. Get on with your lives.

#97 sirensong

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 11:12 PM

cowboys coaching staff doing their damndest to prove cruzer right.

 

:dunno:



#98 Cruzer

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:03 AM

sp the talent void on the defensive side of the football has nothing to do with jerry?  then whose fault is it?

 

we KNOW the problem is the defense.  we know that because during the garrett era, DAL also leads the league in losses when scoring 30+ points.  and garrett isn't a defensive coach--he doesn't adjust the defense or manage the defense.  we know that marinelli is a fantastic defensive coach, who gets more out of his guys than just about anyone else.  so the problem has been--and continues to be--the pathetic talent level of the defensive unit.  we know that garrett wanted to address this: he was gunning for aaron donald, anthony barr, and ryan shazier.  our consolation prizes have been great, but they still don't rectify the most fundamental problem: defensive personnel.

 

that is 100% jerry's department.

Jason Garrett is the HC - it's HIS job to handle and manage his team... Just bcoz he's not a defensive coach doesn't mean he can't a say in what's going on with that side of the ball - that's BS.

 

But a huge reason this team blows leads has just as much to do with Red as it does the defense......... Jason Garrett is the only HC I've seen who thinks it's wise to keep throwing it in the 4th quarters of games when his team is up big.. I've seen it time and time again..... Like I said, he has no clue on how to manage a clock or close out a game - period.



#99 Cruzer

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:08 AM

cowboys coaching staff doing their damndest to prove cruzer right.

 

:dunno:

47-0 - that's what we've been outscored the last two 3rd & 4th quarters - Combined....

 

I actually thought Red did a decent job the 1st half.. He got the message on helping the left side, he found a way to run the ball, got the ball out of Dak's hands quick.......... No - I actually give him credit. This time around - his team let him down. Dak was awful, Dez was bad and our LBs corp (once again) got exposed as a slow, non-tackling group....... I think full strength, we can play and beat this Eagles team maybe... He was outgunned last night, and it showed.

 

I hope we target the LB position in this upcoming draft - this defense could be pretty good if we get some help there.



#100 sirensong

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 02:45 PM

I think full strength, we can play and beat this Eagles team maybe... He was outgunned last night, and it showed.

 

 

absolutely agree--the cowboys are built to defeat exactly that kind of team, but it's difficult to beat the best team in the league without your 2 best offensive players (and best defensive player).  injuries aren't an excuse, but they're a compelling reason.

 

the LB point makes me remember your comments about foster during the draft.  it would have been yet another randy gregory-type gamble, but every now and then those hit (and the talent is undeniable).



#101 the newb

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:39 PM

47-0 - that's what we've been outscored the last two 3rd & 4th quarters - Combined....
 
I actually thought Red did a decent job the 1st half.. He got the message on helping the left side, he found a way to run the ball, got the ball out of Dak's hands quick.......... No - I actually give him credit. This time around - his team let him down. Dak was awful, Dez was bad and our LBs corp (once again) got exposed as a slow, non-tackling group....... I think full strength, we can play and beat this Eagles team maybe... He was outgunned last night, and it showed.
 
I hope we target the LB position in this upcoming draft - this defense could be pretty good if we get some help there.

seemed like every time they ran right they gashed. Then they insisted on trying to run behind Bell and it never worked. Frustrating.
The Pat's would've ran right every time they chose to run

#102 jgcrawfish

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Posted Yesterday, 01:15 PM

I'm not a Cowboys fan, but living in Texas means they're forced down my throat on every newscast, sports radio show and website.  I watch a lot of their games just because they are always on in my market.  Some observations:

 

  • I pointed it out before the season that the Cowboys offensive line was getting way too much credit for last years work.  They lost 40% of it before Smith was hurt.  It simply would not be as dominant this year as last.
  • Dez Bryant is not the same Dez Bryant anymore.  That guy was a beast.  He was never the fastest WR, but he was a 50/50 ball winning machine.  It's almost as if his skills have eroded, like you see with older players, but he's not that old. 
  • Dak Prescott is not Tony Romo.  Tony Romo could and would flat out win games with his arm.  Pocket presence, placement and a well thrown deep ball made that offense hum.  And Romo was, for the most part, so damned game-smart.  He has a lot of those things over Dak.
  • Zeke is WAY better than any other RB on that roster, and which ever back is 2nd behind him his a distant second. 
  • Tyron Smith should be the MVP of that team, and we're seeing why right.  
  • This version of the Cowboys cannot hope to hang with Philly, or any of the other elite teams right now.  The defense is a sieve and with all the reasons stated above the offense is average at best.  

 

I wish Cowboys fans could see these things, and the cold reality...you are what your record says you are.   At 5-5 they are 4 games back in the division with 6 to play.  Essentially 2 games back in the wildcard because of the head-to-head loss to Atlanta.  1 win over a team with a record over .500 right now, the Chiefs, who are fading faster than an 80's one-hit-wonder band.  They can't stop anybody and certainly can't outscore anybody with a good offense.  Stop saying "we could hang with so-and-so if we were healthy".  The Eagles lost their all world left tackle as well, and yet somehow Wentz and Co hung 37 on you.  Just stop. 



"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

#103 Cruzer

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Posted Yesterday, 01:20 PM

 

absolutely agree--the cowboys are built to defeat exactly that kind of team, but it's difficult to beat the best team in the league without your 2 best offensive players (and best defensive player).  injuries aren't an excuse, but they're a compelling reason.

 

the LB point makes me remember your comments about foster during the draft.  it would have been yet another randy gregory-type gamble, but every now and then those hit (and the talent is undeniable).

Agreed......... personnel wise...  I still have zero faith in JG to actually manage a close game at the end to pull it out.

 

And for sure on Foster...But I still address that position in the draft.. I am happy with the youth direction in the secondary, and I'm okay with Tank and Irving up front - time to take the LB position seriously now....... Would also love to find a 350 lb. mountain to pout in the middle is one were available late.



#104 sirensong

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Posted Today, 01:49 AM

 The Eagles lost their all world left tackle as well, and yet somehow Wentz and Co hung 37 on you.  Just stop. 

 

 elliott is the cowboys' wentz--the engine that the scheme is built around.  if philly had come in without johnson or wentz and hung 37 on us, you'd have a point.  but no football team is going to be competitive when you subtract its best 2 offensive players and its best defensive player.  

 

i agree with most of your other points.  in particular, dez is no longer dez because dak is no romo.  dak has a lot to offer, but he is what he is--a developmental guy 18 months out of the spread, still learning the NFL game.  he simply doesn't yet have the chops to maximize dez's skillset in the same way that romo did.  dak is currently going through what wentz went through last year, and i'll bet on the kid learning and improving just as much as wentz has.

 

in the end, it comes down to the same thing i've been babbling about since preseason: talent imbalance.  DAL had 7 pro bowlers last season, of which only 1 was a defender. 

 

the offensive 1st rounders since 2010: dez, tyron, fredbeard, martin, elliott.  the defensive 1st rounders: mo, byron, taco.  2nd rounders: LB (injured), LB (injured), TE, DE (character gamble), DE (drug gamble), LB (injured).

 

offensive elite contracts (league rank in parentheses): RB (9th), WR (6th), LT (4th), RT (4th), C (2nd). defensive elite contracts: DE (10th).

 

and let's not forget $24M in dead money.

 

 

you can't field a sustainable team like that.