Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
cmh6476

Eli Manning... benched

Recommended Posts

I think there is only one stat that truly counts.

 

# of superbowl rings: 2

 

all the rest is crap for the media to manipulate and play with.

Ok so the rest of the team doesn't matter in winning a superbowl? The '85 bears superbowl season was all because of McMahon and Steve Fuller? Eli Manning, Brad Johnson, and Trent Dilfer are all leaps and bounds better than Dan Marino?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

His team carried him? In 2011 the NY Giants were the 25th ranked defense and last in rushing. Last. Meanwhile Eli was throwing for nearly 5k yards on the way to a title. Now just say "wow, I didn't realize that. Thanks HT, I won't walk around making that silly claim anymore"

Last I checked there are a total of 11 players per offensive play. Who was talking about the defense? I wonder if special teams played that year?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last I checked there are a total of 11 players per offensive play. Who was talking about the defense? I wonder if special teams played that year?

He was the best player on a team that won it all. Nobody carried him to anything. Other way around. Fun fact: In 2011, Eli Manning threw 15 fourth quarter touchdowns. A record. That's clutch right there. Historically clutch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like the move.

 

They don't owe him anything, but I just don't like this move, because it doesn't help the team in any way.

 

But it's been done and we will get to enjoy watching The Genos vs the Raiders this weekend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He was the best player on a team that won it all. Nobody carried him to anything. Other way around. Fun fact: In 2011, Eli Manning threw 15 fourth quarter touchdowns. A record. That's clutch right there. Historically clutch.

So earlier you called him a superstar in the league, and your argument for that is one run of a couple games for a QB that went 9-7 during the year in a crappy division.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So earlier you called him a superstar in the league, and your argument for that is one run of a couple games for a QB that went 9-7 during the year in a crappy division.

A couple of games? I explained to you he threw for nearly 5k that year and had the worst running game and one of the worst defenses. Winning 9 games with that is nearly impossible. Give it up man. You made a claim that his team carried him. I blew that assertion to smitherreens. You weren't even close. You can't hang.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eli Manning's typical 16-game season....

328.8 - 549.4 (59.85%) / 3,852.11 yards / 25.4 TD's / 16.9 Int's / 7.01 ypa / 83.79 passer rating

 

Andy Dalton's typical 16-game season....

326.3 - 520.6 (62.68%) / 3,782.46 yards / 24.6 TD's /13.7 Int's / 7.27 ypa / 89.37 passer rating

 

In a nutshell, Eli Manning is Andy Dalton... Andy Dalton is Eli Manning. What's the difference? Nothing. Meaning... both are "good" QB's. Neither are HOF QB's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eli Manning's typical 16-game season....

328.8 - 549.4 (59.85%) / 3,852.11 yards / 25.4 TD's / 16.9 Int's / 7.01 ypa / 83.79 passer rating

 

Andy Dalton's typical 16-game season....

326.3 - 520.6 (62.68%) / 3,782.46 yards / 24.6 TD's /13.7 Int's / 7.27 ypa / 89.37 passer rating

 

In a nutshell, Eli Manning is Andy Dalton... Andy Dalton is Eli Manning. What's the difference? Nothing. Meaning... both are "good" QB's. Neither are HOF QB's.

That dude just is in love with him. Which is fine. I was a fan of Walter Peyton, and he likes Eli Manning. What can you say?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eli Manning's typical 16-game season....

328.8 - 549.4 (59.85%) / 3,852.11 yards / 25.4 TD's / 16.9 Int's / 7.01 ypa / 83.79 passer rating

 

Andy Dalton's typical 16-game season....

326.3 - 520.6 (62.68%) / 3,782.46 yards / 24.6 TD's /13.7 Int's / 7.27 ypa / 89.37 passer rating

 

In a nutshell, Eli Manning is Andy Dalton... Andy Dalton is Eli Manning. What's the difference? Nothing. Meaning... both are "good" QB's. Neither are HOF QB's.

 

How many 4th quarter comebacks for a Super Bowl win does Dalton have to his name? Oh, ok. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he being the QB of the team that beat the Brady's twice in a Super Bowl will be enough too get the votes he would need too make it too the HOF. M

 

I think their will be enough too over see some of his stats and look at them two Big Super Bowl wins, which includes beating the Brady's that where undefeated going into one of those Super Bowls.

 

Just on his stats alone mmm questionable, but those two Super Bowls will stand out, and being the QB of that team that won those two games, will indeed stand out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So should Jim McMahon be in the HOF? The Bears had a 1 loss season and won the superbowl. Amazing. He was hurt and came off the bench in the socond half in one game and had an amazing comeback for one of his victories. Wow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the HOF voters vote him in he should be.

 

That's all that matters, right?

 

The voters.

 

You don't think that they will look at Mannings two Super bowl wins?

 

Sure they will and I think he will make it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's apparent I have won this round. I will graciously take my victory and exit. Good day all. See you in Canton in a few years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's apparent I have won this round. I will graciously take my victory and exit. Good day all. See you in Canton in a few years.

Weird. But good luck to you and your manning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's apparent I have won this round. I will graciously take my victory and exit. Good day all. See you in Canton in a few years.

Lol good day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those advocating for Eli are pointing out that he has good career stats AND 2 Super Bowl wins. Nobody said a QB winning 1 SB and stinking for most of his career should get in. Again, good career stats AND 2 Super Bowl wins. Take the complete package. Stop with Jim Harbaugh and Trent Dilfer comparisons. It's weak and sad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he being the QB of the team that beat the Brady's twice in a Super Bowl will be enough too get the votes he would need too make it too the HOF.

 

i agree. being present while the giants D played lights out (giving up 14 and 17 points) will probably get eli in.

 

that said, this week's actions are a disgrace. for all his bumbling, eli gave everything he had to the giants, and deserved to go out with dignity. actually benching him is utter crap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those advocating for Eli are pointing out that he has good career stats AND 2 Super Bowl wins. Nobody said a QB winning 1 SB and stinking for most of his career should get in. Again, good career stats AND 2 Super Bowl wins. Take the complete package. Stop with Jim Harbaugh and Trent Dilfer comparisons. It's weak and sad.

 

sorry--eli ranged between awful and competent for most of his career, but occasionally got hot at the right times. his 'complete package' is dead square mediocre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, John Elway, and Eli Manning have in common? Answer: they are currently the only Quarterbacks in the history of the NFL to both pass for over 50,000 yards and win Multiple Super Bowls. Those four and Big Ben is about to join the club in a game or two, but that's the whole list. I think the argument whether Eli deserves to be in the Hall of Fame is far more interesting and compelling then whether he actually gets voted in, because he will be and it won't really be close. That is the reality. If Flacco or god forbid Dalton, as someone keeps pretending is a valid comparison, do the same and join that distinguished club they too will wear the gold jacket.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, John Elway, and Eli Manning have in common? Answer: they are currently the only Quarterbacks in the history of the NFL to both pass for over 50,000 yards and win Multiple Super Bowls. Those four and Big Ben is about to join the club in a game or two, but that's the whole list. I think the argument whether Eli deserves to be in the Hall of Fame is far more interesting and compelling then whether he actually gets voted in, because he will be and it won't really be close. That is the reality. If Flacco or god forbid Dalton, as someone keeps pretending is a valid comparison, do the same and join that distinguished club they too will wear the gold jacket.

 

Great point!

 

Dalton can't lead his team to a playoff win. He will never lead them to a SB win. lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How many 4th quarter comebacks for a Super Bowl win does Dalton have to his name? Oh, ok. ;)

 

According to pro-football-reference.com, Dalton has half as many 4th Q comebacks in half as many starts, so, on average - they're the same. So essentially what you're saying is that the only thing that separates a mediocre QB from an HOF QB is a Super Bowl win? Why isn't Doug Williams, Jim McMahon, Trent Dilfer, and Brad Johnson not in the Hall of Fame? By your standard, Joe Flacco is a HOF QB. NOT!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Great point!

 

Dalton can't lead his team to a playoff win. He will never lead them to a SB win. lol

So QBs are the reason why a team wins the superbowl? Because then only QBs that are on a team that win the superbowl should be in the HOF. And no other players.

 

lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

sorry--eli ranged between awful and competent for most of his career, but occasionally got hot at the right times. his 'complete package' is dead square mediocre.

 

This is EXACTLY correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Great point!

 

Dalton can't lead his team to a playoff win. He will never lead them to a SB win. lol

 

If Andy Dalton is the exact same QB over the next 6 season that has been over the last 7, but pulls out 2 SB's, he will have a better resume than Eli. It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of GOOD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, John Elway, and Eli Manning have in common? Answer: they are currently the only Quarterbacks in the history of the NFL to both pass for over 50,000 yards and win Multiple Super Bowls. Those four and Big Ben is about to join the club in a game or two, but that's the whole list. I think the argument whether Eli deserves to be in the Hall of Fame is far more interesting and compelling then whether he actually gets voted in, because he will be and it won't really be close. That is the reality. If Flacco or god forbid Dalton, as someone keeps pretending is a valid comparison, do the same and join that distinguished club they too will wear the gold jacket.

 

LOL, 50k yards. In today's NFL, that's "average".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

eli manning will only make the hall of fame if the league and voters succumb to peyton and archie mannings threats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eli's typical season... 3852 yards, 59.9%, 25 TD's, 17 Int's.

Last year, everyone agreed that Blake Bortles SUCKED! Anyone want to take a guess at his numbers?

 

3905 yards, 58.9%, 23 TD's, 16 Int's creepy close... aren't they?

 

At his current pace, Ryan Tannehill will have 50k passing yards, 62.7%, 290 TD's, 180 Int's and a 93.5 passer rating if he starts 210 games. That's better than Eli... and not an HOF body of work, even if he does win 2 Super Bowls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're not just talking about winning the SBs with Eli, but in both times he had to actually lead end of game, high pressure drives, to win both at the end. That needs to be part of the analysis.

The first included knocking off the undefeated Patriots, who many believed to be the best team ever. And don't discount that last drive because of the Tyree catch, because that didn't win the game. That didn't even get them into the red zone, so he still had to drive down and complete the win in one of the most high pressure SB moments ever

Same thing in the next SB, when he hit Manningham on their last drive on that deep sideline throw, which was one of the best thrown balls in SB history.

 

For anybody that's actually watched guys like Dalton, Stafford or Tannehill in high pressure situations, you should know that they most likely would not be able to rise to the occasion like that. They have shown time and time again to regress under pressure. Because of that, I'm fine sacrificing some regular season stats when I think of HOF caliber guys if they can demonstrate significant championship level contributions, so that's why I'd put Eli in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're not just talking about winning the SBs with Eli, but in both times he had to actually lead end of game, high pressure drives, to win both at the end. That needs to be part of the analysis.

The first included knocking off the undefeated Patriots, who many believed to be the best team ever. And don't discount that last drive because of the Tyree catch, because that didn't win the game. That didn't even get them into the red zone, so he still had to drive down and complete the win in one of the most high pressure SB moments ever

Same thing in the next SB, when he hit Manningham on their last drive on that deep sideline throw, which was one of the best thrown balls in SB history.

 

For anybody that's actually watched guys like Dalton, Stafford or Tannehill in high pressure situations, you should know that they most likely would not be able to rise to the occasion like that. They have shown time and time again to regress under pressure. Because of that, I'm fine sacrificing some regular season stats when I think of HOF caliber guys if they can demonstrate significant championship level contributions, so that's why I'd put Eli in.

Well, if you assert that making clutch plays in pressure situations makes a HOFer, which I don't fully discount, then Tyree needs to be put into the HOF, because, if I remember correctly that catch came on a 3th down with under a minute left in the game, and was the defining moment of the game. Manning threw up a wobbly nasty looking pass in the middle of the field, and somehow he came down with it, .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if you assert that making clutch plays in pressure situations makes a HOFer, which I don't fully discount, then Tyree needs to be put into the HOF, because, if I remember correctly that catch came on a 3th down with under a minute left in the game, and was the defining moment of the game. Manning threw up a wobbly nasty looking pass in the middle of the field, and somehow he came down with it, .

I get the cynicism.

I'm not meaning to discount the need for regular season stats, which obviously David Tyree doesn't have. I'm not clamoring for Robert Horry type guys to get into the NBA HOF either, but I would say that if his numbers alone were even border line, then his playoff successes would in my opinion push him over the top.

 

But I do think guys like Jack Morris, Curt Schilling and David Ortiz in baseball should be in based on their playoff heroics, even if their stats fall a little short of others already in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so the rest of the team doesn't matter in winning a superbowl? The '85 bears superbowl season was all because of McMahon and Steve Fuller? Eli Manning, Brad Johnson, and Trent Dilfer are all leaps and bounds better than Dan Marino?

Not saying that.

 

but most people, (most teams) peg the QB as the leader of the team. Whether that is actually the case behind the scenes or not may be another matter.

 

but the QB touches the ball on every play. Think about that for a minute.

 

Sure, without a good team around him he's not a great QB. But that applies to almost every QB out there.

 

But to get two superbowl rings. You have gotta be doing something right.

 

you could drone on about QB ratings, but you also have to consider Eli never played a West coast offense, so his QB ratings wont be as good because it is more of a Vertical Scheme (which was more typical early in his career)

 

Lots of teams have switched to a West Coast offense because they dont have a QB that can throw a deep ball and that offense covers up for that shortcoming in a QB (to a large degree)

 

Because Eli didnt play that style, I wouldnt expect his QB rating or competion percentage to be as high. Due to a crappy O line, The Giants Offense has sort of turned into more of a dink & dunk, offense in the last year or two. I dont know that I'd call it a West coast offense, but it's more similar in terms of getting the ball out quickly and taking less sacks.

 

In the end, I think one superbowl can be a fluke that happens when you and/or your team catch lightning in a bottle. It's hard to discount 2 superbowls.

 

He's been a great QB. make no mistake about it. Hall of fame worthy? Tough to say, but he's in the conversation for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're not just talking about winning the SBs with Eli, but in both times he had to actually lead end of game, high pressure drives, to win both at the end. That needs to be part of the analysis.

The first included knocking off the undefeated Patriots, who many believed to be the best team ever. And don't discount that last drive because of the Tyree catch, because that didn't win the game. That didn't even get them into the red zone, so he still had to drive down and complete the win in one of the most high pressure SB moments ever

Same thing in the next SB, when he hit Manningham on their last drive on that deep sideline throw, which was one of the best thrown balls in SB history.

 

For anybody that's actually watched guys like Dalton, Stafford or Tannehill in high pressure situations, you should know that they most likely would not be able to rise to the occasion like that. They have shown time and time again to regress under pressure. Because of that, I'm fine sacrificing some regular season stats when I think of HOF caliber guys if they can demonstrate significant championship level contributions, so that's why I'd put Eli in.

Great Analysis, I wouldn't even put Tannehill and Dalton in the same comparison with Stafford. Stafford is a guy who actually has the potential to take that next step. Just bringing up the play to Manningham rushed back those sweet memories. I will also add that in the history of the NFL only 1 QB who won multiple superbowls didn't get in the Hall: Jim Plunkett and he isn't even in the top 20 in Pass yards, Eli is currently 7th. Again, There are two different arguments at play. Does Eli deserve to get in (no MVP or 1st team All-Pro selections), and WILL he get in, which I argue he will easily for All the reasons already discussed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not saying that.

 

but most people, (most teams) peg the QB as the leader of the team. Whether that is actually the case behind the scenes or not may be another matter.

 

but the QB touches the ball on every play. Think about that for a minute.

 

Sure, without a good team around him he's not a great QB. But that applies to almost every QB out there.

 

But to get two superbowl rings. You have gotta be doing something right.

 

you could drone on about QB ratings, but you also have to consider Eli never played a West coast offense, so his QB ratings wont be as good because it is more of a Vertical Scheme (which was more typical early in his career)

 

Lots of teams have switched to a West Coast offense because they dont have a QB that can throw a deep ball and that offense covers up for that shortcoming in a QB (to a large degree)

 

Because Eli didnt play that style, I wouldnt expect his QB rating or competion percentage to be as high. Due to a crappy O line, The Giants Offense has sort of turned into more of a dink & dunk, offense in the last year or two. I dont know that I'd call it a West coast offense, but it's more similar in terms of getting the ball out quickly and taking less sacks.

 

In the end, I think one superbowl can be a fluke that happens when you and/or your team catch lightning in a bottle. It's hard to discount 2 superbowls.

 

He's been a great QB. make no mistake about it. Hall of fame worthy? Tough to say, but he's in the conversation for sure.

I see your points, but numbers have to say something about admittance in the HOF. I wonder if Johnson or Dilfer won 2 and Manning only 1 what the narrative would be? Is that number '2' the deciding factor? Let's look at it like this: if he won zero superbowls, there is no consideration at all for HOF. If he won 1 superbowl, I think he ends up being viewed as a Dilfer/Johnson type with longevity on his side. No HOF. He is brought into the conversation because of the second superbowl. It just needs to be determined if that is enough to get you in.I looked at a couple random lists for top 100 QBs in NFL history. One of them put him around #70 and it was mentioned that was only because of his second SB win and his 2011 post season. If that is the criteria to get in, then that is the criteria to get in.

 

Like I said earlier, he has Peyton and Archie in his corner to push the agenda down the line.

 

 

Here's a write-up from someone who did a top 100 QB ranking last year on Manning:

46. Eli Manning (2004-Active)

I could write a book on Eli Manning. He’s a perplexing case; according to adjusted passer rating, Manning’s 98 mark (100 is average) means he’s actually been a below-average quarterback since joining the league, yet he’s probably going to make the Hall of Fame one day, due largely to his two Super Bowl rings. Beating Bill Belichick twice in two attempts in the NFL’s biggest game is an amazing accomplishment; missing the playoffs in six of the last seven seasons is not so impressive.

Manning will crack the top 10 in passing yards next season (he’s currently at 44,191), and his 294 touchdowns means he has a good chance at 60,000 yards and 375 touchdowns when he’s finished. Manning has never led the league in any statistical category except interceptions – three times – and he’s thrown at least 14 of them every year since 2005 except one. In fact, Manning seemed to be on his way out of New York after a dismal 27-pick output in ’13, but then the Giants drafted Odell Beckham, and Manning has all but been revived – he’s averaged 4,423 passing yards, 32 touchdowns, and a 92.9 passer rating since.

Manning probably hasn’t been as good as his 2004 draft counterparts, Ben Roethlisberger and Philip Rivers, and you could even argue (as I will) that Tony Romo has been better. But would Giants fans trade Manning for any of those others? I can’t imagine why they would, considering Manning has led them to two titles, and that’s really why you play the game.

If you are interested, This guy has some pretty interesting takes on the QBs he ranked.

http://www.swartzsports.news/power-ranking-100-best-quarterbacks-nfl-history-part-iv-10-1/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're not just talking about winning the SBs with Eli, but in both times he had to actually lead end of game, high pressure drives, to win both at the end. That needs to be part of the analysis.

The first included knocking off the undefeated Patriots, who many believed to be the best team ever. And don't discount that last drive because of the Tyree catch, because that didn't win the game. That didn't even get them into the red zone, so he still had to drive down and complete the win in one of the most high pressure SB moments ever

Same thing in the next SB, when he hit Manningham on their last drive on that deep sideline throw, which was one of the best thrown balls in SB history.

 

For anybody that's actually watched guys like Dalton, Stafford or Tannehill in high pressure situations, you should know that they most likely would not be able to rise to the occasion like that. They have shown time and time again to regress under pressure. Because of that, I'm fine sacrificing some regular season stats when I think of HOF caliber guys if they can demonstrate significant championship level contributions, so that's why I'd put Eli in.

 

Let's say you're right... you're not (because there is a very small chance the Giants win that game without that Tyree catch), but let's just say that you are right... basically what you're saying is that the criteria for an HOF player is to have 2 moments of greatness over the course of a slightly better than average career. Sorry, I simply don't agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Let's say you're right... you're not (because there is a very small chance the Giants win that game without that Tyree catch), but let's just say that you are right... basically what you're saying is that the criteria for an HOF player is to have 2 moments of greatness over the course of a slightly better than average career. Sorry, I simply don't agree.

there's no right or wrong in this debate, it's all opinion. I personally think that championship performance should offset a lack of regular season statistics, you personally don't. Each of our opinions is equally as valid though since HOF candidacy is a fluid construct formed via different people's opinion. There is no finite criteria, therefore there can't be a right or wrong answer.

 

in regards to the Tyree catch, sure Tyree made it dramatic, but don't forget that Eli made a great move to swing away from a sack before making the throw, and he put in a place where he knew his receiver would have an advantage. It was still a great play by Eli. But football is the ultimate team sport in that everyone has to be clicking for the team to succeed and for any one individual to be in a position to shine. Tyree isn't in position to make that great catch if Eli doesn't already make a hell of a play to avoid the sack and throw under duress. It's my opinion that Eli driving down the field and taking down potentially the best team ever counts for something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If Andy Dalton is the exact same QB over the next 6 season that has been over the last 7, but pulls out 2 SB's, he will have a better resume than Eli. It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of GOOD.

 

 

 

Come back with this argument when and if Andy ever wins a game that matters. It's completely irrelevant at this point.

 

 

 

 

So QBs are the reason why a team wins the superbowl? Because then only QBs that are on a team that win the superbowl should be in the HOF. And no other players.

 

lol

 

QB's have always been judged by wins and especially SB wins. It's not the only measuring stick, but it is the most important.

 

Also, he has that + 50k yards which is a group of 5. You dismiss it like it's not special. If it's not then why aren't there more than 5?

 

 

Lastly, I don't think he the greatest QB ever. I don't think anyone is saying that. However, he is not mediocre or bad. He's a really good QB who has had a great career. I believe he is HOF worthy or at least in the discussion. You saying he is bad can't be defended by comparing him to a QB that you think is bad that hasn't had even close to the accomplishments that Eli has. It's laughable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×