Fournette and McCaffrey

[BuschWack 56]

Sweet post. It'll be good to get the follow-up info.

Will do.

[TimHauck 1,795]

I can see the argument for both sides, but I'd lean towards being fine with it especially for these 2 who've had some injuries and are playing in bowl games that no one cares about.

 

And to be clear, the "other side" is that they would play for their teammates, not their school. They've given their schools plenty already.

 

But lol @ anyone saying you know what you would do in their situation. You don't.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Some people in this thread seem really naive. Players do better in contract years quite often. I wonder why that is.

[stonewall 647]

But lol @ anyone saying you know what you would do in their situation. You don't.

 

On this point, sir, you are wrong.

 

"Know thyself"

 

Do you?

[TimHauck 1,795]

 

On this point, sir, you are wrong.

 

"Know thyself"

 

Do you?

I do, but that doesn't mean I or anyone else know 100% what they would do in an unlikely hypothetical situation.

[Flgatorguy87 160]

I don't give a damn about that.

 

What's the rookie RB rankings?

[Maulers1973 117]

This goes back to the tail wagging the dog, or the inmates running the asylum. You as a collegiate athlete signed up for a scholarship and shouldn't be allowed to refuse to play.

 

It's sad that our society today is ok with a player quitting.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

This goes back to the tail wagging the dog, or the inmates running the asylum. You as a collegiate athlete signed up for a scholarship and shouldn't be allowed to refuse to play.

 

It's sad that our society today is ok with a player quitting.

It's sad that people still buy into "student athlete" while colleges use these players talent to make millions. These players are so lucrative that it drives schools to sweep rape under the rug like it never happened. Basically shaming the women who try to come forward. But of course it's all innocent right? The players are the ones putting their health and even lives on the line.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

I think the mindset of just shut up, put your head down and do as your told has been challenged more than ever. People don't like that for whatever reason.

[Oriole8159 86]

This goes back to the tail wagging the dog, or the inmates running the asylum. You as a collegiate athlete signed up for a scholarship and shouldn't be allowed to refuse to play.

 

It's sad that our society today is ok with a player quitting.

 

when more coaches have quit on their programs this postseason than players, it's hard to justify targeting just the two players that we're talking about here.

there's no merit to this entire system, so why just choose to focus on the players here? if there was any honor to the way the NCAA and the universities handled their business, I'm sure more people would be bothered by this.

 

that's the real problem, this is just a symptom.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

 

when more coaches have quit on their programs this postseason than players, it's hard to justify targeting just the two players that we're talking about here.

there's no merit to this entire system, so why just choose to focus on the players here? if there was any honor to the way the NCAA and the universities handled their business, I'm sure more people would be bothered by this.

 

that's the real problem, this is just a symptom.

Oh yeah coaches can leave and quit on the team. It's all good. But as soon as the player looks out for his best interest then that's it. Line drawn. It's ok for the coach, but how dare a 20 year old take his future into account. Such a stupid double standard

[jimaveli 119]

And we spend every offseason going on and on about how OLD, scary, risky, and/or 'done' 30-year old rbs are. If I was 22 and getting ready to take a gig where I'm going to be considered old, scary, risky and/or done in less than 10 years, I think I'd be concerned about playing in a pageant game right before the draft.

 

And really, if my coaches and teammates were cool with it and the scouts/agent was supportive too, I wouldn't care too much about online hot takes and cats like Cris Carter and Randy Moss talking at me about some Tom Jackson-style 'respect for the game' stuff. Side: wide receivers are playing a different sport than linemen and rbs.

 

But I'm guessing our biggest stalemate here revolves around the disagreement about the importance of college games in general and non-championship bowl games specifically.

 

I view the whole college football system as a mutual money-making agreement. The school gives a player a means to hone and market skills if it all works out. There's an optional 'education' in there somewhere too if a player wants it to hedge his bets..just in-case playing on Sundays doesn't work out (or if a guy wants to take advantage of the available info).

 

The school gets to pay for a lot of these educations and the other costs associated with a student athlete. They get the big risk of players not panning out on the field and/or being somehow unsavory off the field and bringing shame to the school. But they also get the influx of attention and dollars if/when the players play well. They get to sell the jerseys and more easily market the teams and their games to patrons and corporations.

 

Clearly, the risks aren't enough to outweigh the rewards, so we have coaches making pro coach money with expensive staffs and facilities, some college stadiums bigger than lots of the professional ones, lucrative tv deals, the cash from Saturdays (tickets, hot dogs, cokes/Pepsis, programs, etc), 40 pageant bowl games and a gang of tradition-based classics, etcetera.

[stonewall 647]

"You play to win the game"

[Oriole8159 86]

"You play to win the game"

it's a fake game though. those bowls are the equivalent of a backyard scrimmage, other than the fact that some sponsor threw $1 million out for naming rights.

[Maulers1973 117]

 

when more coaches have quit on their programs this postseason than players, it's hard to justify targeting just the two players that we're talking about here.

there's no merit to this entire system, so why just choose to focus on the players here? if there was any honor to the way the NCAA and the universities handled their business, I'm sure more people would be bothered by this.

 

that's the real problem, this is just a symptom.

 

Coaches aren't there for a scholarship. That's not the deal that they signed. They signed a contract. That contract allows for them to be fired and get paid, or get bought out so the new employer pays the university. It's much more of a business thing than the student who just says, I"m not playing as it's not worth the risk.

[Oriole8159 86]

 

Coaches aren't there for a scholarship. That's not the deal that they signed. They signed a contract. That contract allows for them to be fired and get paid, or get bought out so the new employer pays the university. It's much more of a business thing than the student who just says, I"m not playing as it's not worth the risk.

 

they're leaving before the year ends though; that's why it's relevant. It's one thing for them to leave during the offseason when that year is over, but coaches are leaving now right after the regular season is over and BEFORE their team's bowl game, and just leaving the team and remaining coaches to fend for themselves.

 

it's exactly the same as what these two players are doing. that's why it relevant.

[jaxjag 43]

I call it low class quitter crap! What about the school? They gave these student athletes a full ride scholarship to play football for the entire season, maybe they should revoke their scholarship, or pro rate it for the number of games they actually played in. I think it's disgusting. I'd be pissed if I was a team mate of one of these guys, especially an offensive lineman.

 

This is bad business for college football. It can only have a negative impact. I think players should be in jeopardy of losing their scholarship and having to repay the school for all of their tuition if they want to pull this quitter crap!!

 

Also, if I were an NFL GM or coach, I'd have a HUGE issue with it. It speaks to the character of the man. You think Belichik wants a quitter on his team. I can see it now. "Sorry Coach, my hamstring is tweaked and it's a contract year man. There is only 2 games left and we aint makin the playoffs so I can't risk it." I would ask each player point black, "so why do you think it's ok to quit on the team?"

 

Manziel had character issues going into the draft process. How'd that work out??

 

Being smart enough not to risk your financial future on a meaningless bowl game that only benefits the people that have been profiting at a ridiculous level from your efforts is not "bad character".

[da browns 10]

paraphrasing a movie, "It's not personal, it's just business".

Players are free to choose to prepare for the draft as they see fit.

I'm free to not patronize the game or sponsors.

[stonewall 647]

paraphrasing a movie, "It's not personal, it's just business".

Players are free to choose to prepare for the draft as they see fit.

I'm free to not patronize the game or sponsors.

 

....and people who still believe in the concepts of courage, honor, team/fan loyalty, and finishing over potential financial gains are free to rip 'em.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

 

....and people who still believe in the concepts of courage, honor, team/fan loyalty, and finishing over potential financial gains are free to rip 'em.

So players are to remain loyal to a college/coach who can revoke their sports scholarship for any reason at any time? Offensive guard X commits to a college. The following class the coach finds 3 who are better and rescinds the players scholarship to make room for better players. Where is the loyalty in that? Oh so it's only on the player to remain loyal then, because these coaches sure as hell aren't loyal.

 

College coaches can even used revocation of a scholarship as leverage to keep a player from speaking his mind about anything he doesn't like. That's what I don't get is when people act like the athletic departments are havens of honor and moral superiority. But damn the player who is looking out for himself. Just pay no mind to the players that get screwed over.

 

So can you answer for those players?

[stonewall 647]

So players are to remain loyal to a college/coach who can revoke their sports scholarship for any reason at any time? Offensive guard X commits to a college. The following class the coach finds 3 who are better and rescinds the players scholarship to make room for better players. Where is the loyalty in that? Oh so it's only on the player to remain loyal then, because these coaches sure as hell aren't loyal.

 

College coaches can even used revocation of a scholarship as leverage to keep a player from speaking his mind about anything he doesn't like. That's what I don't get is when people act like the athletic departments are havens of honor and moral superiority. But damn the player who is looking out for himself. Just pay no mind to the players that get screwed over.

 

So can you answer for those players?

 

I notice that you are focusing on the coaches, which is understandable since that is the weakest point of the argument......although there are coaches worthy of being loyal to. Teammates, fans, and young people are the ones truly worth stepping up for, and finishing for.

 

The fans have supported you for 4 years.....spending hard-earned money on tickets, traveling ridiculous distances, and often enduring nasty weather, sometimes just to watch you lose. Your teammates, particularly the seniors putting on a helmet for the final time, have suffered the blood, sweat and tears with you......all to win every possible ballgame you can. So, finish the job and go out and help them win their last one. Young football players will determine, by your example, that it is okay to quit playing before the final whistle....if it might possibly be in YOUR best interest financially. For goodness sake, this country needs to disavow this mentality. It is strangling us.

 

Most importantly, do it for yourself. There is honor in selfless sacrifices, and courage reveals character. And life will, at some point, teach you that there are things far more important than potential greenbacks.

[Oriole8159 86]

 

....and people who still believe in the concepts of courage, honor, team/fan loyalty, and finishing over potential financial gains are free to rip 'em.

 

which of these moves hurts the honor of the league more...

Christian McCaffrey sitting out this one game or Tom Herman leaving Houston for Texas and skipping his team's bowl game, and leaving Houston with with a guy with zero HC experience?

 

If you want to talk courage, honor, team/fan loyalty, etc. than at least be consistent and have more (or at least equal) vitriol for Herman.

[stonewall 647]

If you want to talk courage, honor, team/fan loyalty, etc. than at least be consistent and have more (or at least equal) vitriol for Herman.

 

Okay, granted.

 

If he was not told by Houston to go ahead and just hit the road after being hired by Texas......then he is abandoning these kids who have laid it on the line for him all season. To quote Kiefer Sutherland's last words in Young Gun 2, as he exposed himself to mortal gunfire to allow his "pals" a chance to escape the shack they were surrounded in: "Let's finish the game"

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

 

I notice that you are focusing on the coaches, which is understandable since that is the weakest point of the argument......although there are coaches worthy of being loyal to. Teammates, fans, and young people are the ones truly worth stepping up for, and finishing for.

 

The fans have supported you for 4 years.....spending hard-earned money on tickets, traveling ridiculous distances, and often enduring nasty weather, sometimes just to watch you lose. Your teammates, particularly the seniors putting on a helmet for the final time, have suffered the blood, sweat and tears with you......all to win every possible ballgame you can. So, finish the job and go out and help them win their last one. Young football players will determine, by your example, that it is okay to quit playing before the final whistle....if it might possibly be in YOUR best interest financially. For goodness sake, this country needs to disavow this mentality. It is strangling us.

 

Most importantly, do it for yourself. There is honor in selfless sacrifices, and courage reveals character. And life will, at some point, teach you that there are things far more important than potential greenbacks.

But these schools don't care about honor. If they did they wouldn't allow coaches to pull a kids scholarship. Next man up is a huge motto for football. It gives someone else a chance to step up and prove for next year they should be in the running for starter.

 

Every kid who is planning on going pro sits? Ok. That's their choice. All it goes is give more guys opportunity. And in the end it's to win a meaningless bowl game that is more for the profit of the school than any benefit for the players. Still not so sure why you are so against the players sitting when there are plenty of wrongs by the schools towards the players.

[weepaws 2,452]

I don't have a problem with them sitting out.

 

The school will still get paid no matter if they play or not.

 

And I'm sure this decision was not an easy one for either player to make.

 

I would think there was even a lot of talking with coaches and especially teammates.

 

And the fans will travel to see the games no matter if they are playing or not.

 

But it's an interesting subject.

 

I can diffently see this just being the start of more of this type of situation to come in the coming years.

 

Happy New Year

[TimHauck 1,795]

 

I notice that you are focusing on the coaches, which is understandable since that is the weakest point of the argument......although there are coaches worthy of being loyal to. Teammates, fans, and young people are the ones truly worth stepping up for, and finishing for.

 

The fans have supported you for 4 years.....spending hard-earned money on tickets, traveling ridiculous distances, and often enduring nasty weather, sometimes just to watch you lose. Your teammates, particularly the seniors putting on a helmet for the final time, have suffered the blood, sweat and tears with you......all to win every possible ballgame you can. So, finish the job and go out and help them win their last one. Young football players will determine, by your example, that it is okay to quit playing before the final whistle....if it might possibly be in YOUR best interest financially. For goodness sake, this country needs to disavow this mentality. It is strangling us.

 

Most importantly, do it for yourself. There is honor in selfless sacrifices, and courage reveals character. And life will, at some point, teach you that there are things far more important than potential greenbacks.

The coaches aspect is a great argument. They do it all the time, and they were actually getting paid. You should have MORE anger towards the coaches.

 

The only people I see the argument for are fans going to these games to see these players. But there probably won't be many Standord fans in Texas or LSU fans in Florida...the rest of the fans all got to see them play in all the other games they could've played except for this nearly meaningless one.

 

Most of the teammates have said they support it (sure, those that don't probably won't say anything). But the reason they are in the Sun Bowl and the Citrus Bowl is because they didn't "win every game they can" and have already lost 25%+ of their games.

 

There are things more important than "potential greenbacks." If they had a chance for a national championship, I'm sure they'd be playing in these games. But they don't. They're essentially exhibition games.

 

Here's a good article backing up frozenbeernuts:

 

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2016/12/26/doyel-dont-hate-players-skipping-bowls-hate-bowl-system/95849014/

[cbfalcon 824]

This goes back to the tail wagging the dog, or the inmates running the asylum. You as a collegiate athlete signed up for a scholarship and shouldn't be allowed to refuse to play.

 

It's sad that our society today is ok with a player quitting.

 

Agreed. Players shouldn't be allowed to leave after their Freshman, Sophomore, or Junior seasons either. You signed up for a scholarship and shouldn't be allowed to leave early. It's sad that our society today is ok with a player quitting.

[TimHauck 1,795]

 

Agreed. Players shouldn't be allowed to leave after their Freshman, Sophomore, or Junior seasons either. You signed up for a scholarship and shouldn't be allowed to leave early. It's sad that our society today is ok with a player quitting.

Lol. I guess people regular people should stay at their job their entire lives too.

 

If your proposal were true, they'd also have to let people go right from HS to the NFL.

[Maulers1973 117]

 

I notice that you are focusing on the coaches, which is understandable since that is the weakest point of the argument......although there are coaches worthy of being loyal to. Teammates, fans, and young people are the ones truly worth stepping up for, and finishing for.

 

The fans have supported you for 4 years.....spending hard-earned money on tickets, traveling ridiculous distances, and often enduring nasty weather, sometimes just to watch you lose. Your teammates, particularly the seniors putting on a helmet for the final time, have suffered the blood, sweat and tears with you......all to win every possible ballgame you can. So, finish the job and go out and help them win their last one. Young football players will determine, by your example, that it is okay to quit playing before the final whistle....if it might possibly be in YOUR best interest financially. For goodness sake, this country needs to disavow this mentality. It is strangling us.

 

Most importantly, do it for yourself. There is honor in selfless sacrifices, and courage reveals character. And life will, at some point, teach you that there are things far more important than potential greenbacks.

 

I agree 100%

 

 

 

Agreed. Players shouldn't be allowed to leave after their Freshman, Sophomore, or Junior seasons either. You signed up for a scholarship and shouldn't be allowed to leave early. It's sad that our society today is ok with a player quitting.

 

Um, you do realize that when a student athletes leaves the school, and is no longer attending classes then the scholarship is no longer in place for that individual. Since they're no longer getting that "free college education" then they are no longer under any obligation to the school. Kind of obvious to most folks.

[petekrum 20]

Jaylon Smith lost 22 million dollars playing in a meaningless bowl game last season.

[weepaws 2,452]

Losing 22 million while playing in a bowl game , once again proving that you should never play in a football with your wallet.

[Maulers1973 117]

Jaylon Smith lost 22 million dollars playing in a meaningless bowl game last season.

 

He also said he'd do it again. Some people care about team. Some people arne't self centered. Some people believe in playing in a bowl game because it's part of the season.

 

No player prior to being offered a scholarhsip by a D1 coach offers the stipulation, "ok, I'll sign to play for this school Coach so long as I don't have to play in any meaningless bowl games."

[TimHauck 1,795]

That was at least a New Years Six bowl. Did someone ask if he'd play in the Sun Bowl?

[weepaws 2,452]

Agree it depends on the Bowl game.

 

Ok Coach I agree to come play for you at LSU.

 

Oh after the last reg season game and before the bowl game the coach quits.

 

Now what?

 

Once again I'm sure they both talked openly with their teammates and coaches.

 

It's going to be the start of how this issue is handled.

[petekrum 20]

He also said he'd do it again. Some people care about team. Some people arne't self centered. Some people believe in playing in a bowl game because it's part of the season.

 

No player prior to being offered a scholarhsip by a D1 coach offers the stipulation, "ok, I'll sign to play for this school Coach so long as I don't have to play in any meaningless bowl games."

 

You can preach all that crap to me when coaches aren't allowed to bail on teams in the middle of their contracts after promising those kids they would be there throughout their college careers, until then it's all hot air.

[Oriole8159 86]

You can preach all that crap to me when coaches aren't allowed to bail on teams in the middle of their contracts after promising those kids they would be there throughout their college careers, until then it's all hot air.

AND if coaches can't pull those scholarships for no fault of the student/athlete

AND if universities still covered insurance for student/athletes on career ending injuries

AND if student/athletes could profit on their likeness

AND if the student/athletes had a union to protect their interests in this billion dollar industry

 

The system is far too broken to only hold the student athletes accountable to their end of the bargain. As a purist I don't like it either, but I can't in good conscience denigrate their attempts to better their situation against a system that is clearly exploiting them already.

[weepaws 2,452]

Congrats Oriole you nailed it.

 

Happy New Year.

[stonewall 647]

Thanks for the discussion, guys. I think we have reached a consensus:

 

1. It's okay to not man-up and play your last game, abandoning your college, fans, and teammates........since there is a chance (in this full-contact sport) that you might get a boo-boo.

 

2. In life, money is a more important consideration than honor, integrity, and reliability.

 

Got it.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Thanks for the discussion, guys. I think we have reached a consensus:

 

1. It's okay to not man-up and play your last game, abandoning your college, fans, and teammates........since there is a chance (in this full-contact sport) that you might get a boo-boo.

 

2. In life, money is a more important consideration than honor, integrity, and reliability.

 

Got it.

Now you get it. If I am the player it shouldn't be all on me to uphold integrity when my coach isn't expected to nor is my university. If scholarships were 100% guaranteed, no take backs, and coaches didn't just up an leave after promising to stay, then I would be all for players upholding their end also (for a meaningless bowl game that is only the there to make money).

 

Also trivializing injuries that could leave someone disabled to a degree for the rest of their life as a boo boo, come on. I don't see why that's necessary.

[phlegmish 4]

I don't believe players owe their school a damn thing tbh. Any more than any other student, and no other students risk the same thing by playing a game. Fournette is on track to graduate this spring as I understand it, BECAUSE he's intended all along to leave school early and extend his football shelf life (should he stay healthy enough in the pros). McCaffery is an academic All-American at one of the best schools

In the world and I'd bet all my career earnings that he goes back and gets a degree with money he earns in NFL because it's a Stanford education.

 

Honor? Integrity? Those are quaint beliefs about what a student-althlete should be. Maybe it still applies to the rowers on crew team.

 

Would any reg student with an academic scholarship risk his "career" to do a graduate project?? 4 yrs of engineering school down the drain to win a contest that pays him/her nothing. But somehow it should different for football players (or is it just the fans of their college team) who really, really, really wanna win that important OB Tampon bowl for good ol' alma mater