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Dan Sez

Changing Rank Order

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(From whoisjgalt:)

 

Sufficient time has passed since this was a problem. So I'll post this now.

 

I believe that we need to balance the schedule out. It should be the case that every team has played the same number of division games at every point in the season. Why? Because division games won is the primary tiebreaker for the free agency weekly order. It seems silly that a team who won a division game goes after a division rival (who may have scored more points) who didn't play a division game (when they both have the same record).

 

Or, don't bother to alter the schedule - just remove the division record from the F/A ordering.

 

*******

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No changes decided this offseason impacts the draft order of August or June.

 

The changes in Rank Order will be reflected beginning with the first Free Agent round of the 2005 season.

 

We can't make changes now that impact teams who played through the past season under the previous Rank Order.

 

 

Removing Division from the whole process or just from the FA process?

Installing some kind of Head to Head stat?

 

Thoughts and comments?

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(From Scatterjack:)

 

"Rank Order Rule: Total Wins, Divisional Wins, Total Loses, Total

Points Against, Total Points For, Flip of Coin."

 

 

Shouldn't points scored hold more weight than points against?

It seems counterproductive to hope your opponent runs up the score so your team can win a tiebreaker. I think that how my team performs is more important than how mu opponent performed throughout the season.

 

Also, I am sure we had a good reason but remind me why we didnt incorporate head to head into this?

 

 

PS. The fact that I am currently in a dogfight for a playoff spot and the fact that I have the lowest PA total may or may not have effected my opinion on this subject.

*****

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Clarification:

 

I vote for points scored be the #1 tiebreaker in rank order. If its to determine a playoff spot, then points scored is the best determiniation of who the better team really is. The idea is to get the best teams into the playoff, not the luckiest.

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Clarification:

 

I vote for points scored be the #1 tiebreaker in rank order. If its to determine a playoff spot, then points scored is the best determiniation of who the better team really is. The idea is to get the best teams into the playoff, not the luckiest.

Agreed

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Clarification:

 

I vote for points scored be the #1 tiebreaker in rank order. If its to determine a playoff spot, then points scored is the best determiniation of who the better team really is. The idea is to get the best teams into the playoff, not the luckiest.

also agree here

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Agreed on Total Points tb'er.

 

 

Also in case of the schedule how bout my suggestion a few years ago?

 

Games 1-4 out of Division

Games 5-7 IN Division

Games 8-11 Out

Games 12-14 IN.

 

Sets up the Rivalry Final Week.

 

:huh:

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Last call for comments...

 

This impacts playoff and draft positions.

Please let us know what you think.

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Agreed on Total Points tb'er.

 

 

Also in case of the schedule how bout my suggestion a few years ago?

 

Games 1-4 out of Division

Games 5-7 IN Division

Games 8-11 Out

Games 12-14 IN.

 

Sets up the Rivalry Final Week.

 

B)

My preference is to maximize in-division games during the non-bye weeks. That way if Hig Chew has nobody on bye that week and I've got Owens plus Westbrook plus Rudi out that week, I don't get screwed with both a loss and a division loss to the main division rival.

 

Play in-division games weeks 1-2 and 11-14. Play the out-division games weeks 3-10.

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I agree that the Division games should be taken out of the FA process entirely.

 

Do we want to keep Division in the Rank Order for Season and Playoff standings?

 

How does Head to Head play into each of the Two Ranking Systems?

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Since we still try to mimic the rules of the NFL, I think incorporating division records into rank order is a must but only as a secondary tiebreaker. For example: Total points, divsion wins, etc.

 

In my experience fuhning using head to head anywhere in the mix gets way too confusing. We had 4 way tie once and it really became a mess.

 

As long as TP gets priority, the rest wont matter because it will never get there.

 

Record

Total Points

Division Wins

points against

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Since we still try to mimic the rules of the NFL, I think incorporating division records into rank order is a must but only as a secondary tiebreaker. For example: Total points, divsion wins, etc.

 

In my experience fuhning using head to head anywhere in the mix gets way too confusing. We had 4 way tie once and it really became a mess.

 

As long as TP gets priority, the rest wont matter because it will never get there.

 

Record

Total Points

Division Wins

points against

I'd put your #4 ahead your #3. If two teams tie for record and total points (likelihood just ever so slightly greater than zero) then the team with the tougher schedule ought to get the priority IMO.

 

H2H can then work since there's no shot of having a three-way or more tie once you've gotten that deep into the tiebreakers. And I can't see using the division wins as a wildcard tiebreaker - only use it for the division title.

 

1. Record (more wins gets priority)

2. Total Points Scored (more points gets priority)

3. Total Points Against (more points gets priority)

4. Head to Head Record (more wins gets priority)

5. Division Wins (but not for the wildcard & more wins gets priority)

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Since we still try to mimic the rules of the NFL, I think incorporating division records into rank order is a must but only as a secondary tiebreaker. For example: Total points, divsion wins, etc.

 

In my experience fuhning using head to head anywhere in the mix gets way too confusing. We had  4 way tie once and it really became a mess.

 

As long as TP gets priority, the rest wont matter because it will never get there.

 

Record

Total Points

Division Wins

points against

I'd put your #4 ahead your #3. If two teams tie for record and total points (likelihood just ever so slightly greater than zero) then the team with the tougher schedule ought to get the priority IMO.

 

H2H can then work since there's no shot of having a three-way or more tie once you've gotten that deep into the tiebreakers. And I can't see using the division wins as a wildcard tiebreaker - only use it for the division title.

 

1. Record (more wins gets priority)

2. Total Points Scored (more points gets priority)

3. Total Points Against (more points gets priority)

4. Head to Head Record (more wins gets priority)

5. Division Wins (but not for the wildcard & more wins gets priority)

And I'm suggesting using that for both free agency and playoff qualification purposes. Keep the two consistent.

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Since we still try to mimic the rules of the NFL, I think incorporating division records into rank order is a must but only as a secondary tiebreaker. For example: Total points, divsion wins, etc.

 

In my experience fuhning using head to head anywhere in the mix gets way too confusing. We had  4 way tie once and it really became a mess.

 

As long as TP gets priority, the rest wont matter because it will never get there.

 

Record

Total Points

Division Wins

points against

I'd put your #4 ahead your #3. If two teams tie for record and total points (likelihood just ever so slightly greater than zero) then the team with the tougher schedule ought to get the priority IMO.

 

H2H can then work since there's no shot of having a three-way or more tie once you've gotten that deep into the tiebreakers. And I can't see using the division wins as a wildcard tiebreaker - only use it for the division title.

 

1. Record (more wins gets priority)

2. Total Points Scored (more points gets priority)

3. Total Points Against (more points gets priority)

4. Head to Head Record (more wins gets priority)

5. Division Wins (but not for the wildcard & more wins gets priority)

I threw points against in there because it was already one of the original criteria. I think its self destructive for reasons I stated earlier. As long as TP is the #1 tiebreaker, the rest is all politics.

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Lets don't be bitter guys. (Politics is a swear word in the Dungeon - political witch hunts have driven off many good and divergent thinkers from across the isle into isolation - lets not do that here, please.)

 

If there is no consensus, then there will be no change.

Again, dividing the process:

 

Record for standings which only impact playoff position and draft/waiver

versus

Free Agent Access which has an impact after game one

 

maybe the best road.

Two Rank Order systems.

 

If someone, anyone really has a problem with an issue that makes them dissatisfied, then we should not force it. We have gone two years with the same setup.

 

The first season I got "stuck" by the Rank Order and lived with it. This year some others got shafted in the way Division weighs the FA process. I think this is the major objection. Lets focus on discussing that.

 

There is time - years hopefully - to perfect this creation. Each year gives us a little more experience and perspective.

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...

 

And I'm suggesting using that for both free agency and playoff qualification purposes. Keep the two consistent.

It would be easier for all to keep track with one system.

 

If there is a better way to do one versus doing another, or the only way to correct the obvious defect without a major confrontation -

 

in those cases, then transitioning Free Agency with a modified system fixes the major fault and then we can see how that would impact Final Season Rank Order.

 

I would like there to be just one system but the two goals are different

 

Free Agency - to give teams a chance/access to a dwindling pool of players a snapshot of the situtaion as power due to schedule, injuries and so forth unfold.

 

 

Season Ending - rank teams for a body of work (the entire season). We don't change the Rank Order due to Playoff results since teams can get lucky or unlucky on any week (fkn Stinkston and Ackers), so we set the big issue Rank Order on the whole Season.

 

The processes are different. Maybe the solutions should be different too.

 

thanks

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Dan:

 

I don't think that Scatter and I are arguing really. I think that we both agree that a change would be for the best. A slight difference of opinion on what exact change would be preferred, but we've both in favor of Total Points Scored as the first tiebreaker - and with decimal scoring everything else is for all practical purposes moot.

 

It's all good. :pointstosky: I have no intention of trying to run him off - especially over something that we mostly agree on.

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Spirited debate is good. State positions and defend them - good, good. Nobody should feel railroaded here. If anyone does, email me privately if you wish and I will do my best impersonation of "deus ex machina". Unfortunately in some cases things do fall into the "realpolitka" arena of personna, effort, charasima and power - even in little internet groups.

 

I try hard to be a balancing hand on the tiller, certain some times to fail. Ther are faults I wished I could just erase with a stroke of the keyboard but that capriciousness wears hard on people who don't share my vision. Lets all pray for patience.

 

I appreciate the efforts to work towards agreement from all the strong personalities that inhabit the Dungeon.

 

I haven't tracked the discussion fully yet - need to print this thread out and think about the points you guys have raised. Rank Order is a very important component that controls access to all other resources (free agents/draft picks).

 

Changing things like that, compounded with the variances of Lady Luck, (wonder what her machina of choice is???) can lead a member to believe that such a change dramatically changed his place and fortune from one season to the next. Imposing any modification (even a correction from a previously flawed system) can change a person's place on the Rank Order system 2-3-maybe-4 positions. Especially in a close season like 2004 when about half the league teams were within spitting differences apart carving up one or two playoff spots.

 

We need everybody on board about any change like this and hope the others who are not piping up are at least watching and thinking about the implications of change.

 

 

(an old Dan Sez rant??? well, maybe the ghost of one - I feel more ghost than Dan most daze - ahahahah)

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