Tomorrow is opening day of deer season in michigan

[drobeski 3,061]

They lack the ability to experience pain/suffer. Ever heard a plant scream?

so we can do what we want to mutes ?

[penultimatestraw 473]

only if it can be funny..

Got nothing at the moment.

Unpossible.

[penultimatestraw 473]

so we can do what we want to mutes ?

Yes. And deaf people can kill whatever/whomever they want.

[MDC 5,890]

Or you could be consistent, and say killing any defenseless animal is immoral.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. I think killing another animal for food is natural. Killing it for sport or fun isn't.

[Mookz 1,287]

Or you could be consistent, and say killing any defenseless animal is immoral.

 

Hmm, okay, well, let's say I were to move to Hawaii and erect a tiny house on your property. How much would you charge me per month, KEEPING IN MIND that I would try my best not to stare at your wife's irrepressible Asian nipples if she were to come outside to get the morning paper in her night gown?

[penultimatestraw 473]

I'm not sure I agree with you there. I think killing another animal for food is natural. Killing it for sport or fun isn't.

Industrialized meat production isn't remotely "natural." On the other hand, behaviors like rape are very natural among animals. But humans have evolved enough to modify our behavior; sometimes for ethical reasons. We can choose non-natural behaviors, too, like wearing clothing. Or vegetarianism.

 

I honestly don't care what you eat, but claiming moral superiority of one type of animal killing over the other is nonsense IMO. Short of sustenance hunting and/or avoiding starvation, any meat eating is a choice which promotes animal suffering. Suffering that doesn't need to happen, unless you prefer to keep you head in the sand with Edjr and pretend it doesn't exist.

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

Hmm, okay, well, let's say I were to move to Hawaii and erect a tiny house on your property. How much would you charge me per month, KEEPING IN MIND that I would try my best not to stare at your wife's irrepressible Asian nipples if she were to come outside to get the morning paper in her night gown?

Are we talking the Linden or Mica?

 

And we don't get the paper. Plus my wife's nipples cannot be seen through the coconuts.

[OldMaid 1,838]

Industrialized meat production isn't remotely "natural." On the other hand, behaviors like rape are very natural among animals. But humans have evolved enough to modify our behavior; sometimes for ethical reasons. We can choose non-natural behaviors, too, like wearing clothing. Or vegetarianism.

 

I honestly don't care what you eat, but claiming moral superiority of one type of animal killing over the other is nonsense IMO. Short of sustenance hunting and/or avoiding starvation, any meat eating is a choice which promotes animal suffering. Suffering that doesn't need to happen, unless you prefer to keep you head in the sand with Edjr and pretend it doesn't exist.

I get what you're saying, but having grown up in the mid-west where deer hunting is extremely popular; I remember being told that if hunters didn't hunt, the deer population would get out of control. I guess I'd rather see a deer taken down by a hunter, than to get hit by a car, and maybe suffer for days. And in my experience most hunters at least eat what they kill.

 

And as you know... I'm an animal lover and would turn vegan in a heartbeat, if I had to kill my own dinner.

[MDC 5,890]

Industrialized meat production isn't remotely "natural." On the other hand, behaviors like rape are very natural among animals. But humans have evolved enough to modify our behavior; sometimes for ethical reasons. We can choose non-natural behaviors, too, like wearing clothing. Or vegetarianism.

 

I honestly don't care what you eat, but claiming moral superiority of one type of animal killing over the other is nonsense IMO. Short of sustenance hunting and/or avoiding starvation, any meat eating is a choice which promotes animal suffering. Suffering that doesn't need to happen, unless you prefer to keep you head in the sand with Edjr and pretend it doesn't exist.

I'm assuming you believe that animal killing is justified in some instances - for example when it's in the interests of developing potentially life saving drugs. I'm also assuming you make some moral distinction between killing an advanced primate vs an insect or plant life. I'm also assuming you make some form of distinction between terminating human life; for example I would be surprised if you consider an early term abortion or capital punishment to be the moral equivalent of cold blooded murder.

 

Right?

[HenryHill9323 65]

I always get a chuckle at the folks who cry about bambi.

 

A few points:

 

1. Hunting is herd management. Without it they would over populate, outgrow their food supply, and thousands would die a long painful death due to starvation.

 

2. I have never seen, or heard, of anyone killing strictly for sport. Nobody goes out and shoots a deer and just lets it lay there. It is processed for food.

 

3. I know people who pay to have it processed and then donate it to local food banks. I read an interview with Ted Nugent (Bonus here: Libs will have spiddle flying at the mere mention of his name) where he was talking about his organization that does just that. Hunters donate their venison through his organization to food banks. I don't recall the number so I won't guess, but I was amazed at the number of pounds they have donated to the hungry.

 

Some people choose to stay ignorant, and take a holier than though attitude towards those who hunt. This is coming from someone who has never been deer hunting. Now, put me on the edge of a freshly plowed under maise field and I will blast dove all day long. Those mean bastages need to be shot, have a jalapeno shoved inside, wrapped tightly with bacon, and thrown on the grill.

[Mookz 1,287]

Are we talking the Linden or Mica?

 

And we don't get the paper. Plus my wife's nipples cannot be seen through the coconuts.

 

The Linden is not without its charm, but I think the Mica is more my style.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

For all the reasons laid out in this thread, namely food and herd management, I'm cool with set hunting.

 

I do think it is stupid when the government imports animals to hunt. Like I know tennessee imported elk once and issued hunting licenses for them. That is dumb.

 

The hunters that are scum are the big game trophy Jack holes. Killing a tiger or lion or bear just to mount it is wrong.

[DuckStupid 40]

Killing a tiger or lion or bear just to mount it is wrong.

Correct. It's much more fun to mount them when they are still alive.

[Drizzay 645]

So.........

 

 

Did you get anything?

[kilroy69 994]

Did not even see anything. It sounded like a war zone just before dark though so some people had good luck.

[drobeski 3,061]

Deer Flock to Woman's Doorstep to Feed:

[penultimatestraw 473]

I get what you're saying, but having grown up in the mid-west where deer hunting is extremely popular; I remember being told that if hunters didn't hunt, the deer population would get out of control. I guess I'd rather see a deer taken down by a hunter, than to get hit by a car, and maybe suffer for days. And in my experience most hunters at least eat what they kill.

 

And as you know... I'm an animal lover and would turn vegan in a heartbeat, if I had to kill my own dinner.

A major reason deer population is out of control is humans have hunted and killed apex predators. Our solution? Kill more animals. I'd rather see deer provide food for wolves, cougars, etc. than shot, or hit by cars.

 

But I do respect hunters a lot more if they eat what they kill.

 

Your last sentence suggests you'd rather be a hypocrite/ignorant than accept the reality of what you eat. It's a relatively common sentiment, of course, but that doesn't make it any more justifiable.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I'm assuming you believe that animal killing is justified in some instances - for example when it's in the interests of developing potentially life saving drugs. I'm also assuming you make some moral distinction between killing an advanced primate vs an insect or plant life. I'm also assuming you make some form of distinction between terminating human life; for example I would be surprised if you consider an early term abortion or capital punishment to be the moral equivalent of cold blooded murder.

 

Right?

Right. The ability to suffer is the line I draw. Except under extenuating circumstances where no other food is available, as in a survival situation. One could argue developing a "life saving drug" is similar, but I'm not into killing animals for most research.

 

I agree murder is worse than capital punishment, but I support neither. Abortion should occur only when the embryo/fetus doesn't have the ability to suffer. Except under extenuating circumstances, like the mother's life is in danger.

 

You may not agree, but I think my views and behavior are fairly consistent.

[kilroy69 994]

If you don't eat what you kill your not a hunter you are a douchenozzle.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I always get a chuckle at the folks who cry about bambi.

 

A few points:

 

1. Hunting is herd management. Without it they would over populate, outgrow their food supply, and thousands would die a long painful death due to starvation.

 

2. I have never seen, or heard, of anyone killing strictly for sport. Nobody goes out and shoots a deer and just lets it lay there. It is processed for food.

 

3. I know people who pay to have it processed and then donate it to local food banks. I read an interview with Ted Nugent (Bonus here: Libs will have spiddle flying at the mere mention of his name) where he was talking about his organization that does just that. Hunters donate their venison through his organization to food banks. I don't recall the number so I won't guess, but I was amazed at the number of pounds they have donated to the hungry.

 

Some people choose to stay ignorant, and take a holier than though attitude towards those who hunt. This is coming from someone who has never been deer hunting. Now, put me on the edge of a freshly plowed under maise field and I will blast dove all day long. Those mean bastages need to be shot, have a jalapeno shoved inside, wrapped tightly with bacon, and thrown on the grill.

I've addressed the "herd management" issue above. And there certainly are hunters who kill just for the sport - many big game hunters come to mind. But it is admirable for those who don't waste the meat, at the minimum.

 

I've been on a pig hunt. Didn't kill it but helped to dress it in the field. Been fishing too. I've also researched/seen film of what goes on in abattoirs. These things help shape my actions, not to judge hunters.

[OldMaid 1,838]

A major reason deer population is out of control is humans have hunted and killed apex predators. Our solution? Kill more animals. I'd rather see deer provide food for wolves, cougars, etc. than shot, or hit by cars.

 

But I do respect hunters a lot more if they eat what they kill.

 

Your last sentence suggests you'd rather be a hypocrite/ignorant than accept the reality of what you eat. It's a relatively common sentiment, of course, but that doesn't make it any more justifiable.

I think it's a bigger picture than "we have hunted and killed all the apex predators". The fact that land is getting scarce plays a big factor into it as well. Ecosystems are a delicate balance... and humans have disrupted it.

 

It'd be great if we could go back in a time machine and correct all the wrongs we've done. But we can't. So what would you suggest? Hunting seems like a logical solution, and most of the people who hunt (that I've known) are respectful of the animals they kill. I'm not talking about the big game hunters, as it's pretty much a given that they are a$$holes.

 

I think we've discussed this before... I'm not ignorant to what goes on in industrialized farming. I think it's deplorable... That's why I choose to buy from places that are cruelty free. But I still like meat... so,

[MDC 5,890]

Right. The ability to suffer is the line I draw. Except under extenuating circumstances where no other food is available, as in a survival situation. One could argue developing a "life saving drug" is similar, but I'm not into killing animals for most research.

 

I agree murder is worse than capital punishment, but I support neither. Abortion should occur only when the embryo/fetus doesn't have the ability to suffer. Except under extenuating circumstances, like the mother's life is in danger.

 

You may not agree, but I think my views and behavior are fairly consistent.

 

The line I draw is whether the animal is killed humanely and dispassoinately for food. I think my view there is fairly consistent too.

 

I guess technically people don't need to eat meat but since the vast majority of folks always have and the vast majority of the natural world works that way it seems fairly normal to me. It's unfortunate that farm animals are treated so badly. I feel bad about that part of it but not about the actual killing.

[mmmmm...beer 691]

This is freaking awesome! I would love to share something like this with my son. I love bow hunting.

 

[parrot 789]

Right. The ability to suffer is the line I draw.

What suffering are we talking about here?

[IGotWorms 3,311]

For all the reasons laid out in this thread, namely food and herd management, I'm cool with set hunting.

 

I do think it is stupid when the government imports animals to hunt. Like I know tennessee imported elk once and issued hunting licenses for them. That is dumb.

 

The hunters that are scum are the big game trophy Jack holes. Killing a tiger or lion or bear just to mount it is wrong.

And it's tacky as fock. Whenever I'm in a house where someone has dead animals mounted all over the place all I can think is what a dooshbag the man of the house is.

[Mookz 1,287]

I've addressed the "herd management" issue above. And there certainly are hunters who kill just for the sport - many big game hunters come to mind. But it is admirable for those who don't waste the meat, at the minimum.

 

I've been on a pig hunt. Didn't kill it but helped to dress it in the field. Been fishing too. I've also researched/seen film of what goes on in abattoirs. These things help shape my actions, not to judge hunters.

 

You did a good job addressing everyone else, but what of my erection?

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

And it's tacky as fock. Whenever I'm in a house where someone has dead animals mounted all over the place all I can think is what a dooshbag the man of the house is.

I had a wild boar head, with tusks and all, mounted on a whisky keg piece hanging from the wall.

 

Of course, it was college, so tacky as fock was kind of the idea. It hung over a wooden cigar store Indian. Both were yard sale purchases.

[HenryHill9323 65]

I had a wild boar head, with tusks and all, mounted on a whisky keg piece hanging from the wall.

Of course, it was college, so tacky as fock was kind of the idea. It hung over a wooden cigar store Indian. Both were yard sale purchases.

So you didn't shoot the cigar store Indian yourself?

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

So you didn't shoot the cigar store Indian yourself?

Nor the boar. I have never actually fired again at anything bigger than a squirrel.

 

Not because I have moral qualms, I just don't find the prospect of freezing my balls off at the ass crack of dawn for the chance to gut a carcass for meat that isn't that great unappealing.

 

Oh, and most hunters I know spend thousands of dollars on hunting gear, so the argument that this is to feed the family is a bit specious.

[Voltaire 4,558]

 

You did a good job addressing everyone else, but what of my erection?

Maybe you could hunt sheep.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I think it's a bigger picture than "we have hunted and killed all the apex predators". The fact that land is getting scarce plays a big factor into it as well. Ecosystems are a delicate balance... and humans have disrupted it.

 

It'd be great if we could go back in a time machine and correct all the wrongs we've done. But we can't. So what would you suggest? Hunting seems like a logical solution, and most of the people who hunt (that I've known) are respectful of the animals they kill. I'm not talking about the big game hunters, as it's pretty much a given that they are a$$holes.

 

I think we've discussed this before... I'm not ignorant to what goes on in industrialized farming. I think it's deplorable... That's why I choose to buy from places that are cruelty free. But I still like meat... so,

I don't think there is an easy solution. It would take years/decades or more to reintroduce apex predators. Even longer to reverse the culture that values meat so highly in our diet. As an individual I can't impact those things much at all, other than not eating animal flesh.

 

I used to like meat too. Hell, I probably still do. But I'd rather be consistent with my values, as the palate is surprisingly easy to change.

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

The line I draw is whether the animal is killed humanely and dispassoinately for food. I think my view there is fairly consistent too.

 

I guess technically people don't need to eat meat but since the vast majority of folks always have and the vast majority of the natural world works that way it seems fairly normal to me. It's unfortunate that farm animals are treated so badly. I feel bad about that part of it but not about the actual killing.

Fair enough, but it is exceedingly difficult to find livestock that is raised and slaughtered humanely IMO. But normal <> right or moral either.

[penultimatestraw 473]

What suffering are we talking about here?

Living conditions for the majority of feed animals, and the actual slaughter of some.

 

But in a more general sense, any animal which has the ability to perceive pain shouldn't suffer just so i can have a tasty meal. Especially when less cruel options exist.

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

You did a good job addressing everyone else, but what of my erection?

Find an apex predator. Maybe a cougar.

[parrot 789]

Living conditions for the majority of feed animals, and the actual slaughter of some.

 

But in a more general sense, any animal which has the ability to perceive pain shouldn't suffer just so i can have a tasty meal. Especially when less cruel options exist.

 

So we're not talking about hunting here? Because being shot by a hunter is generally MUCH more humane than being taken by an apex predator, which you've said is your preferred way for a game animal to die. I saw a video yesterday of a mountain lion taking down a buck just by biting his neck until he gave up. I can say for certain that that one deer suffered more than all the big game animals I've ever shot combined.

[HenryHill9323 65]

Starving to death due to overpopulation doesn't sound like a very humane way to die either.

[MDC 5,890]

Fair enough, but it is exceedingly difficult to find livestock that is raised and slaughtered humanely IMO. But normal <> right or moral either.

My only moral issue with eating meat is the way the animals are kept, not the fact that they are slaughtered. And I'm not saying it necessarily moral but like everyone else including you in guessing I make concessions out of convenience. Unless you're telling me you lead a zero impact lifestyle that in no way exploits animals, the environment, other people etc. Which I highly doubt.

[patweisers44 697]

So you didn't shoot the cigar store Indian yourself?

I don't mind the people that shoot Cigar Store Indians, just the ones that don't eat what they kill.

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

So we're not talking about hunting here? Because being shot by a hunter is generally MUCH more humane than being taken by an apex predator, which you've said is your preferred way for a game animal to die. I saw a video yesterday of a mountain lion taking down a buck just by biting his neck until he gave up. I can say for certain that that one deer suffered more than all the big game animals I've ever shot combined.

The difference is, we've evolved enough to have other food options, and to limit our impact on our prey. Or eliminate killing altogether.

 

I'm sure more than a few animals hunted by man have experienced more prolonged, agonizing deaths than the mountain lion's attack. Even if every shot is an instant kill, we have no inherent right to kill just because we can.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Starving to death due to overpopulation doesn't sound like a very humane way to die either.

True. But we likely caused that problem, too. On some level, are you suggesting eating meat is more humane than not?