It's a TD for the Saints D/ST

[PATSSOX 22]

There's actually no ambiguity there. Offense the whole way. The punting and kicking formations are just that... formations. The offense can line up in punt or field goal formation every down and just run standard run and pass plays if they wanted to.

 

A fake punt is nothing more than substituting your qb for the punter and your normal offensive personell for your punt team and then lining up in a punt formation and running a normal offensive play.

 

Similarly, when Kordell Stewart used to play for the Steelers and would pooch punt from the shotgun formation on 3rd and long every now and then, that is a special teams play even though they lined up in a normal offensive package.

 

 

GOOD POINT

 

But once the kickers come on the field isnt it then when they are called "special teams"?? Just asking not trying to be a smart A$$. For the situation you describe with Kordell, he is still in offense but by the rule book he can still punt the ball. But i would still say the offense is on the field not the special teams??

[FrogAssassin 6]

This reminds me of that QB who throws a pass..bounces up..and he catches it and scores a TD HIMSELF.

 

And then people are arguing if u have that player..do you get credit for 2 TDS..one passing and one recieving? Or just one TD?

[KSB2424 3,082]

So lemme get this straight. Once a turnover occurs everybody on the feild is playing Defense?

 

If the Redskins ran it in it would've been a DST TD. If the Saints get it it would've been a Saints DST. Hell, if Meechem would've fumbled back it would have been a Skins DST TD.

 

So who the hell was playing offensive?

[PATSSOX 22]

This reminds me of that QB who throws a pass..bounces up..and he catches it and scores a TD HIMSELF.

 

And then people are arguing if u have that player..do you get credit for 2 TDS..one passing and one recieving? Or just one TD?

 

what does happen in that case?? Does the NFL rule it a TD pass and receiving? Because the do rule it a complete pass if he catches and gets tackled......i think

 

if that is the case the QB should get credit for both!!

[FrogAssassin 6]

what does happen in that case?? Does the NFL rule it a TD pass and receiving? Because the do rule it a complete pass if he catches and gets tackled......i think

 

if that is the case the QB should get credit for both!!

 

Was that Steve Young who did it? I remember it happened...but that was a few years ago.

[nobody 2,031]

So lemme get this straight. Once a turnover occurs everybody on the feild is playing Defense?

 

If the Redskins ran it in it would've been a DST TD. If the Saints get it it would've been a Saints DST. Hell, if Meechem would've fumbled back it would have been a Skins DST TD.

 

So who the hell was playing offensive?

 

 

Why is this so hard to understand? When you have the ball, you are on offense. When you don't have the ball you are on defense.

 

The Saints started on offense.

 

Brees threw a pick. Now the Redskins defense generated a turnover and now are on offense. The Saints players are now on defense.

 

Meachem forces a fumble as a defensive player and runs it in for a score as an offesive player.

 

Notice how both turnovers are forced by people playing defense at the time.

 

Now FF is not real football, you can score the play any way you want, but typically we give the defense credit for a TD when players playing defense generate a turnover and run it in for a TD. Meachem was playing defense when he generated a TD and ran it in for a TD. The Redskins player was playing defense when he generated a turnover. However, he was on offense when he was running with the ball.

 

This isn't even complicated.

[FlyPattern 0]

It sure was sweet waking up to an extra six points. It would have been REALLY great if it launched me to a lead. But I was well ahead already in my money league.

[nobody 2,031]

"Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession."

 

That's straight from the NFL rulebook, folks.

 

 

This is what someone who wrongly thinks it was not a D/ST TD wrote. He can't read, so he thinks it supports his position, but look what it says...

 

New Orleans is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when Washington secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.

 

This is real simple.

[nobody 2,031]

GOOD POINT

 

But once the kickers come on the field isnt it then when they are called "special teams"?? Just asking not trying to be a smart A$$. For the situation you describe with Kordell, he is still in offense but by the rule book he can still punt the ball. But i would still say the offense is on the field not the special teams??

 

 

It's not defined as a special teams play until the ball is kicked.

 

You guys are getting caught up on the player's listed postions. You have to think about the actions they are actually performing. Some players play more than one position in a game. For FF purposes we like to pigeon-hole everyone into one position.

[KSB2424 3,082]

Why is this so hard to understand? When you have the ball, you are on offense. When you don't have the ball you are on defense.

 

The Saints started on offense.

 

Brees threw a pick. Now the Redskins defense generated a turnover and now are on offense. And if the Redskins scored it would have gone to the DST. The Saints players are now on defense. But the TD still goes to the Redskins Defense.

Meachem forces a fumble as a defensive player and runs it in for a score as an offesive player. This is correct. Therfore the Saints Defense gets no TD awarded. Meecham is an offensive player.

Notice how both turnovers are forced by people playing defense at the time.

 

Now FF is not real football, you can score the play any way you want, but typically we give the defense credit for a TD when players playing defense generate a turnover and run it in for a TD. Meachem was playing defense when he generated a TD and ran it in for a TD. The Redskins player was playing defense when he generated a turnover. However, he was on offense when he was running with the ball.

You are contradicting yourself and don't even know it.

 

ETA: I fully understand what you are saying. Doesn't make it that simple. The way you present it only a DST can be awarded a TD after the intial turnover. Which by way of sport, is fundamentally wrong.

[Gepetto 976]

myfantasyleague.com in my league didn't credit the Touchdown to Meacham OR to Saints Defense.

[FrogAssassin 6]

My god, its a Paradox!!

 

Its a SIGN!!! 2012 is REAL!!!!

 

This is just the beginning!!

[PsychoBelichickFan 0]

meacham gets the stats......real simple.........the saints offense was on the field when it happened............. meacham got a turnover and should get points for that and then he gets yardage points and the td. The saints D does not deserve any points from this............

[PsychoBelichickFan 0]

Technically the defense scored the TD. This subject has been covered over and over here. As soon as the offense turns the ball over the entire offense is now "defense". There is no middle ground here and Saints D should be credited with a TD. It's really very simple.

no................you are fishing for points here...the saints offensive personal and formations were on the field they got the ball back meacham gets the stats.

[oldguru 0]

I've seen arguments that say "as soon as Washington got the ball, Meacham became a defensive player". So by that definition any time a DB picks off a pass he becomes an offensive player. Therefore he can never score a Defensive touchdown then, could he? So everyone giving out points for these so-called Defensive TDs are giving out free points.

 

That's just asinine.

 

Meacham plays on the Saints offense and everyone knows it. Anyone trying to jive defensive points from this is playing little ticky-tac games. The Saints D was not on the field at the time and therefore will not get credited with anything.

 

We installed pretty much the same rules as the Keenan McCardell Rule above and I love that name.

 

Section 36 of the NFL rule book mkes interesting reading.

My summary:

Possession = Offense. NO possession = Defense (It can change during a play, according to the NFL)

 

CODE

Section 36 Team A and B, Offense and Defense

Article 1 Whenever a team is in possession (3-2-7), it is the Offense and, at such

time, its opponent is the Defense.

Article 2 The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its opponent is Team B. For

brevity, a player of Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammates as A2, A3, etc.

Opponents are B1, B2, etc.

Note: A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it

remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of

possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense.

Team A is always the offense when a down starts, but becomes the defense if and when

B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.

Article 3 A change of possession occurs when a player of the defensive team secures

possession of a ball that has been kicked, passed, or fumbled by a player of the offensive

team, or when the ball is awarded to the offensive team, or when the ball is awarded

to the opposing team by rule. A change of possession includes but is not limited to:

(a) an interception of a forward pass; or

b. a catch or recovery of a fumble or backward pass; or

a catch or recovery of a Scrimmage Kick, Free Kick, or Fair Catch Kick.

(d) when the offensive team fails to reach the line to gain on fourth down.

(e) when the offensive team misses a field-goal attempt.

[nobody 2,031]

The way you present it only a DST can be awarded a TD after the intial turnover. Which by way of sport, is fundamentally wrong.

 

 

IF that's what you think I'm saying then I'm not saying it right.

[Vikings4ever 496]

How a play is scored is not dependent on WHO is on the field.

 

QB throws the ball to a LB who is playing on offense = offensive play

QB hands off the ball to a DT who is playing on offense = offensive play

CB takes a snap in the wildcat formation and throws the ball = offensive play (seen last night)

Backup QB throws the ball to a player from a FG formation = offensive play

Punter takes a snap from a punt formation and runs it = offensive play

OT recovers a fumble his team dropped = offensive play

WR playing on defense for a last second hail mary intercepts the ball = defensive play

Defense blocks a kick before it crosses the LOS = defensive play

Defense blocks a kick after it crosses the LOS = special teams play

Starting QB punts the ball from a shotgun formation = special teams play

Safety runs back, grabs that punt, returns it for a TD = special teams play

RB tackles a defender who intercepted a pass in the endzone for a safety = defensive play

Intercepting a pass for a TD = defensive play

Recovering the other team's fumble for a TD = defensive play

[swandown 0]

New Orleans is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when Washington secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.

 

This is real simple.

Therefore, New Orleans became the offense; therefore, Meachem scored a TD on offense; therefore, the New Orleans D/ST doesn't get the points.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbup:

[PsychoBelichickFan 0]

Therefore, New Orleans became the offense; therefore, Meachem scored a TD on offense; therefore, the New Orleans D/ST doesn't get the points.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbup:

yeah.....the saints were indeed the defense after the first turnover..but once meacham secured the ball and got the second turnover the saints once again became the offense and thus meachame the wr gets the stats............

[nobody 2,031]

You are contradicting yourself and don't even know it.

 

 

I think I see where you are getting hung up. TDs can only be scored on offense. The act of converting a turnover into a TD is what makes it a "defensive" TD for FF purposes only. All touchdowns are technically offensive TDs.

 

I'll tell you what your argument should be by the way. It shouldn't be "the saints started on offense, so it's an offensive TD" It should be that for FF purposes, we select defensive units. These defensive units should only include players that play on the defensive side of the ball at the snap. I don't agree with that either, but at least it's just a matter of preference. As for the traditional FF sense, we define "defensive touchdowns" as a touchdown scored after causing a turnover. In reality there is no such thing as a defensive TD. Anytime you possess the ball you're on offense.

[nobody 2,031]

yeah.....the saints were indeed the defense after the first turnover..but once meacham secured the ball and got the second turnover the saints once again became the offense and thus meachame the wr gets the stats............

 

 

Yeah, and when Ed Reed takes a pick to the house tonight, guess what? He was on offense, too, when he had the ball.

[KSB2424 3,082]

IF that's what you think I'm saying then I'm not saying it right.

Well lets break it down. Answer these couple questions.

 

In this same scenario who gets the touchdown in fantasy football?

 

1. If the Redskins would have scored a TD and not fumbled?

2. Meecham picking up the Redskin fumble and scoring?

3. If Meecham would've fumbled AGAIN and the Redskins scored?

 

In all three you are saying the DST for whichever team should be awarded a fumble. Therefore whichever team ended up with the ball the defenses scored. So I ask again.

 

Who was playing offense?

[KSB2424 3,082]

Yeah, and when Ed Reed takes a pick to the house tonight, guess what? He was on offense, too, when he had the ball.

Of course he was, but Ed Reed plays on the Baltimore DST therfore the Baltimore DST gets the TD. Just as Meecham plays on the offensive so HE gets the TD (not the Defense). Now you got it.

[nobody 2,031]

Therefore, New Orleans became the offense; therefore, Meachem scored a TD on offense; therefore, the New Orleans D/ST doesn't get the points.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbup:

 

 

By your logic the DB that intercepted the ball for washington was also on offense after the pick. So are you saying that if he scored a TD, it shouldn't be credited to the defense?

[KSB2424 3,082]

I'm just messing around here, but there is no right or wrong answer. It certainly is not as simple as some of ya'll claim. Fantasy Football is based on statistics. Statistics can be interpreted and construed many ways. And it doesn't always parallel "real" football. Either angle has both merits and flaws.

 

Which is why we see some sites saying one thing and some saying the other.

 

Interesting discussion, but it really is going nowhere.

[nobody 2,031]

Well lets break it down. Answer these couple questions.

 

In this same scenario who gets the touchdown in fantasy football?

 

1. If the Redskins would have scored a TD and not fumbled?

2. Meecham picking up the Redskin fumble and scoring?

3. If Meecham would've fumbled AGAIN and the Redskins scored?

 

In all three you are saying the DST for whichever team should be awarded a fumble. Therefore whichever team ended up with the ball the defenses scored. So I ask again.

 

Who was playing offense?

 

1. Redskins D

2. Saints D

3. Redskins D

 

I'll repeat what I typed...

 

TDs can only be scored on offense. The act of converting a turnover into a TD is what makes it a "defensive" TD for FF purposes only. All touchdowns are technically offensive TDs.

 

If you want to say that the "defensive unit" consists of only the guys listed at defensive positions, you can for FF purposes. I think that's not correct, but that's not what most of you are saying. You're saying "ME SMASH. MEACHEM IS WR SO IT'S OFFENSIVE TD."

 

I call the defensive unit, people who are playing defense at the time. You call it people with LB and DB and DL written next to their name. That's shortsighted because offensive players can actually line up on defense.

 

Let me ask you, when Moss had that pick earlier this year, did you give the points to Moss or the Pats defense?

[KSB2424 3,082]

1. Redskins D

2. Saints D

3. Redskins D

So once the intial turnover was committed by your logic, only a Team Defense can score a TD. There could be six fumbles back and forth and the only 'player' that can score is the Defense. If you cannot inherently see how that has holes in it then I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

To be honest I lean to your side of the arguement, but both sides are littered with flaws

[swandown 0]

By your logic the DB that intercepted the ball for washington was also on offense after the pick. So are you saying that if he scored a TD, it shouldn't be credited to the defense?

It sounds illogical, but the bolded part is exactly how the NFL works. The Washington Defense was temporarily on offense, and Meachem was temporarily on defense.

 

Now, if you want to get into a discussion on why the NFL credits those touchdowns to the Defense (even though Rule 36 clearly states that they were on offense at the time), that's another matter entirely.

[Drizzay 643]

So once the intial turnover was committed by your logic, only a Team Defense can score a TD. There could be six fumbles back and forth and the only 'player' that can score is the Defense. If you cannot inherently see how that has holes in it then I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

In essence, because of the scenario below, once the first change of possession occurs, there can never be an "offensive" TD scored. The original offensive team cannot "continue" their original possession after a turnover.

 

Think of it this way. Let's say the play was:

1) Saints 3rd and 20 from the WAS 40.

2) Ball is intercepted by Washington

3) Returning player fumbles at the WAS 30

4) Ball is recovered at WAS 30 by Saints but not advanced.

5) It would not be 4th & 10 and a continuation of the drive, it would be a brand new possession for Saints and 1st down.

 

Maybe all hosting sites have it labeled wrong. Instead of calling it "Defensive Touchdowns" They should call it "Change of Possession Touchdowns". As a change of possession can happen multiple times on one play, and the TD may not necessarily be scored by the "original" defense that was on the field.

 

That would clear up any and all questions about this anomaly.

[Gepetto 976]

Most FF Scoring for individual offensive players gives 6 points for rushing touchdowns and 6 points for receiving touchdowns, therefore, since Robert Meacham scored a Touchdown on a fumble recovery, he gets 0 fantasy points.

 

Saints Defense/Special Teams in fantasy football refers to that part of the team that plays defense and/or special teams. The New Orleans Saints Defense (or Special Teams) did NOT score a touchdown on that play. Robert Meacham who was playing for the offense at the position of Wide Reciever did score. Meacham always plays offense and he is not part of the New Orleans Saints Defense or Special Teams in the NFL or on your fantasy football squad.

 

 

I win this thread.

 

[Drizzay 643]

I win this thread.

 

 

 

Except when Randy Moss intercepts a hail mary and Mike Vrabel catches a td.

[Gepetto 976]

Except when Randy Moss intercepts a hail mary and Mike Vrabel catches a td.

 

Randy Moss was inserted with the defensive unit. Vrabel was inserted with the offensive unit. Meacham was part of the offense when he scored.

 

I win again.

 

[oldguru 0]

As I read this thread, several posters were saying "this site got it right" or "that site got it right". But almost every site mentioned has originally scored the Meachem "fumble recovery" for the Saints defense. Why? Because the NFL stats has it listed as a fumble recovery in "The Final Defensive Stats" section (although in the misc column) Yet, my question is this: If every site has credited the Saints Defense with a "fumble recovery" by Meachem........how could they not credit the defense with the TD score? *So, maybe none of them got it right. Both the "fumble recovery" and the "TD score" which resulted from it.......kind of go hand in hand to me. Can't have one without the other.

 

Just something else to consider.

 

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/5...AS_Gamebook.pdf

[remote controller 133]

Should be given to Meachum and Saints D/ST IMO.

Why??? Cuz you own the D/ST. It was an offensive formation and a score for Meachem only.

[bkbergen 1]

This is all null and void if you have the following rule in place:

 

**Keenan McCardell rule - If a Team is on offense, and they lose possession of the football by Int. or fumble yet gain it back and score a TD off of a subsequent fumble, the scoring player WILL receive credit for that TD, and the D/ST will NOT.**

 

I gave Meacham the 6 points and took the 6 points from the Saints DST. I will be amending the rule next year to say that no yardage points will be given.

 

Now for fake fg/punt td we have the following rule:

 

** Adam Viniatiera rule-A player on special teams can score on a fake FG or Punt. If a fake Punt goes for a touchdown, the DEF will get the TD points plus any bonus points. If a fake FG goes for a TD and the Kicker throws the touchdown or catches it, the Kicker and player receiving/throwing the pass will both receive TD points plus any other applicable points. If anyone else throws the TD pass, the DEF will get the points (most likely you would not started the 2nd string qb who is the holder and we do not start punters)**

[Kingstowne Dealers 14]

1. Redskins D

2. Saints D

3. Redskins D

 

I'll repeat what I typed...

 

TDs can only be scored on offense. The act of converting a turnover into a TD is what makes it a "defensive" TD for FF purposes only. All touchdowns are technically offensive TDs.

 

If you want to say that the "defensive unit" consists of only the guys listed at defensive positions, you can for FF purposes. I think that's not correct, but that's not what most of you are saying. You're saying "ME SMASH. MEACHEM IS WR SO IT'S OFFENSIVE TD."

 

I call the defensive unit, people who are playing defense at the time. You call it people with LB and DB and DL written next to their name. That's shortsighted because offensive players can actually line up on defense.

 

Let me ask you, when Moss had that pick earlier this year, did you give the points to Moss or the Pats defense?

 

So the TD scored by Meachem should have counted AGAINST the Washington Defense since the offensive players turned to defensive players?

[Kingstowne Dealers 14]

FYI, this was the yahoo(verbatim) stance back in 2003:

 

 

"The Tampa Bay defense lost the points associated with a second defensive TD. Teams with the Tampa Bay defense for week 5 received points for only 1 touchdown.

Yahoo! Sports does not recognize the change of possession and switch the Tampa Bay players from offense to defense on this play. Had Doss returned the interception for a touchdown, no points allowed would have been charged to the Tampa Bay defense. As such, when McCardell recovered the fumble and returned it for a touchdown, no touchdown was credited to the Tampa Bay defense."

[FF_Guru_Guy 0]

Was that Steve Young who did it? I remember it happened...but that was a few years ago.

It was Brad Johnson and he was given credit for BOTH a passing TD and a receiving TD.

[FF_Guru_Guy 0]

GOOD POINT

 

But once the kickers come on the field isnt it then when they are called "special teams"?? Just asking not trying to be a smart A$$. For the situation you describe with Kordell, he is still in offense but by the rule book he can still punt the ball. But i would still say the offense is on the field not the special teams??

By the NFL's definition, it becomes a "special teams" play the moment a ball is kicked. If you put Kordell Stewart at QB and he punts the ball, then he's nothing more than a punter (and the play counts only as a Special Teams play). If you put Kordell Stewart at punter and have him throw a pass, then he's considered a quarterback (and the play counts as a regular offensive play).

[Vikings4ever 496]

By the NFL's definition, it becomes a "special teams" play the moment a ball is kicked. If you put Kordell Stewart at QB and he punts the ball, then he's nothing more than a punter (and the play counts only as a Special Teams play). If you put Kordell Stewart at punter and have him throw a pass, then he's considered a quarterback (and the play counts as a regular offensive play).

Actually, it doesn't become a special teams play until a kicked ball passes the LOS, prior to that it's still offense/defense.

 

But it furthers my argument that plays aren't ruled by WHO is on the field, but by WHAT HAPPENS on the field.