They kneeled for the National Anthem and stood for the Brit anthem.

[mark32esu 18]

There’s a fine line between courage and stupidity.

[brotherbock 349]

Well, if our system comes from theirs, like you said above, doesn't that make it relevant?

Hate groups are certainly a part of what you talk about

 

Hate groups are associated with the problem they are kneeling about, sure. But as I understand it, the kneeling is specifically about governmental oppression. Unarmed black man after unarmed black man being killed by police, with no repercussions in most cases. That's very different from nazis running around in Charlottesville. Related problems, sure. But not specifically the same problem.

 

It's similar to someone deciding to tackle poverty or hunger. Usually, being effective means taking on one particular problem--you work on food deserts, or you work on the problem of corporate personhood. But at some point you have to draw the line. Protesting about everyone in any way related to the issue you've chosen diffuses your effort and you get less accomplished. So it's a sliding scale, but maybe sitting for the British anthem would distract from their specific point. Or maybe not, maybe it would have helped. It's entirely possible.

[brotherbock 349]

There’s a fine line between courage and stupidity.

 

Sure. It's almost always found wherever someone disagrees with what someone else is doing.

 

You, I'm gathering, don't like their protests. So you're going to say it's 'stupid'. When of course it has nothing to do with their intelligence. What you mean is that you think it's a bad decision, presumably because it might affect their employment.

 

But of course they know that it might. And they are making the decision to stand up for something they believe strongly in, at risk of their jobs. How is knowingly taking a risk like that 'stupid'?

 

The answer is just that you don't agree with their position. So you call it stupid.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Everyone has the right to protest whatever they want. I just wish it wasn't brought into the workplace.

 

At my job it wouldn't be cool to start protesting political and/or social perceptions in the work place. And the company is very active in social programs all over the world and supports employees rights to be active in their communities.

 

I'm sure there are some players who don't want to protest but feel pressured to join in since it's such a team game.

[ChinaCat 21]

Employees who have the right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

 

 

Not in the workplace they dont.

 

Go wear a HItler T shirt to work and see what happens.

 

Are people really this simple minded?

[ChinaCat 21]

 

But the protests aren't about the existence of hate groups--the protests are about the institutional and systemic racism and oppression

If there was systemic racism and oppression why don't we hear the asians and Hindu's complaining?

[brotherbock 349]

If there was systematic racism and oppression why don't we hear the asians and Hindu's complaining?

 

Other people do things you don't do because they pay attention and read.

[mark32esu 18]

You're right. Luckily, employees of the NFL have the right to kneel if they want. And in fact it makes it more risky to take a stance you believe in when you know your boss doesn't like it. It's not particularly impressive at all when everyone in the NFL wears pink for breast cancer for one week. Yay, coordinated and fully approved stance-taking. Takes more courage when it's not approved.

There a fine line between courage and stupidity. And luckily, the owners have the right hire who they want. They are taking their stance against this kneeling nonsense by ousting the frontman of the movement. If youre a replaceable employee of any organization, the last thing you should be doing is bringing undesirable attention to yourself. Again, courage/stupidity, fine line.

[brotherbock 349]

Everyone has the right to protest whatever they want. I just wish it wasn't brought into the workplace.

 

At my job it wouldn't be cool to start protesting political and/or social perceptions in the work place. And the company is very active in social programs all over the world and supports employees rights to be active in their communities.

 

I'm sure there are some players who don't want to protest but feel pressured to join in since it's such a team game.

 

It's possible some people feel pressured. But if in fact 'all the owners' are against it like everyone is saying, I'd think the pressure to not protest would be stronger. If it's really that unpopular.

 

It's fine to not want protesting in some places, to be clear I'm not saying that opinion is 'racist' or anything. But you'll just find a lot of people who disagree strongly about where protest is appropriate and where it isn't. MLK's famous 'Letter from a Birmingham Jail' (great read) is a letter written to southern clergy who were telling King that his protests were out of place, were 'disturbing the peace', and that he needed to stop riling people up. King's response is very interesting.

 

https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/coretexts/_files/resources/texts/1963_MLK_Letter_Abridged.pdf

[brotherbock 349]

There a fine line between courage and stupidity. And luckily, the owners have the right hire who they want. They are taking their stance against this kneeling nonsense by ousting the frontman of the movement.

 

Ok. And they can do that. But it's curious that you think losing your job for something you believe strongly in is 'stupid'. So the only 'smart' response is to keep your job no matter what?

[redsrback 30]

can you disrespect an official - nope

 

can you disrespect the comissioner- nope

 

can you disrespect the flag-yes

 

Rights ? you have the right to play football and represent the NFL. You dont like it ,go sell some cars.

[Ray_T 589]

I just think there are better ways to get your message across. Its seems to be too divisive to really accomplish what they want to get done. I like what happened in Cleveland in the first week after there was a disagreement in what was going on. Neither side liked what the other was doing, so instead of just hating each other they came together and found a solution. That's what should be happening. Protesting and disagreeing is fine, but at some point you have to have open dialogue and action. Do it once to get your message across, then try and do something more proactive and reach out.

Honestly, I'd rather see this method of getting the message across.

 

There are some out there who believe violence is the answer.

 

given the choice between the two alternatives, I'd prefer to see someone kneeling when the Anthem is being sung.

 

If you shut this down, more people will start to support more radical ideas and the violent alternative.

[polecatt 402]

 

Hate groups are associated with the problem they are kneeling about, sure. But as I understand it, the kneeling is specifically about governmental oppression. Unarmed black man after unarmed black man being killed by police, with no repercussions in most cases. That's very different from nazis running around in Charlottesville. Related problems, sure. But not specifically the same problem.

 

It's similar to someone deciding to tackle poverty or hunger. Usually, being effective means taking on one particular problem--you work on food deserts, or you work on the problem of corporate personhood. But at some point you have to draw the line. Protesting about everyone in any way related to the issue you've chosen diffuses your effort and you get less accomplished. So it's a sliding scale, but maybe sitting for the British anthem would distract from their specific point. Or maybe not, maybe it would have helped. It's entirely possible.

Now it's governmental oppression, I thought it was racial oppression, and the NFL isn't the government, plenty of them have made comments about Charlottesville and such on Twitter

That ultimately leads to my main problem with all of this

It's a mess, they aren't even sure what they are protesting about exactly, so it's just a giant cluster-F and it really has done nothing but divide people and bring attention to themselves

If they had a clear message, and plan to actually make a positive change, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it all

[brotherbock 349]

can you disrespect an official - nope

 

can you disrespect the comissioner- nope

 

can you disrespect the flag-yes

 

Rights ? you have the right to play football and represent the NFL. You dont like it ,go sell some cars.

 

But they don't have to go sell cars. Because, so far, no one is making them stop kneeling. So yes, at the moment, they do have the right to 'disrespect the flag'.

 

Which is a curious term--the flag is a piece of cloth. Their kneeling is not directed at a piece of cloth at all. Make no mistake, they are targeting people with their actions. There are people in this country who are the real target of the disrespect. No one sees another unarmed black man shot and says "damn that stupid flag!"

[Drizzay 645]

I must have missed the rule in the NFL employee handbook that says players can't protest politically before games.

[LunaTick 29]

Good for them

 

After 9 months and a lifetime. We can now safely say, that Trump will never handles the situation correctly.

When has he ever?

 

For those who say that professional players are overpaid.

I recommend you go back and look at Trump and his role in triggering this in the 80's with the USFL.

 

I just hope the Republican wake up soon enough and remove their R from this troll.

 

JOHN KASICH IN 2020

(hell he would have won over Clinton in 2016)

[mark32esu 18]

Ok. And they can do that. But it's curious that you think losing your job for something you believe strongly in is 'stupid'. So the only 'smart' response is to keep your job no matter what?

Again, you’re not entitled to a job. If you’re a replaceable employee of any organization and you bring undesirable attention to yourself, you must live with the consequences. There is freedom of speech but nowhere does it say you’re free from consequences.

[brotherbock 349]

Now it's governmental oppression, I thought it was racial oppression, and the NFL isn't the government, plenty of them have made comments about Charlottesville and such on Twitter

That ultimately leads to my main problem with all of this

It's a mess, they aren't even sure what they are protesting about exactly, so it's just a giant cluster-F and it really has done nothing but divide people and bring attention to themselves

If they had a clear message, and plan to actually make a positive change, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it all

 

It's governmental racial oppression. Why are you trying to separate the two?

 

Why are they kneeling at games? It's not because they are trying to 'disrespect the NFL' or 'disrespect the flag'. It's because their kneeling is an incredibly effective method, one of the best they have available, of making their message heard.

 

Here's the thing--I'm an NFL fan. I watch the games. I believe very strongly in the foundational principles of the USA, our Constitution (now that we have all that slavery out of it), and our freedoms. And yet they aren't making me feel insulted, or angry, when they kneel. Because I understand that they aren't kneeling as a way to upset me. They aren't aiming this all at me. And they aren't aiming at the things I think are important--freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. Their protest isn't about that. They are protesting government-approved racism and oppression. Which I also oppose.

 

So why should I be upset if they kneel for a song played about our flag?

[brotherbock 349]

Again, you’re not entitled to a job. If you’re a replaceable employee of any organization and you bring undesirable attention to yourself, you must live with the consequences. There is freedom of speech but nowhere does it say you’re free from consequences.

 

And I, and the players, aren't making any of those claims you're denying. The players protesting have said nothing to indicate that they don't accept the risk of losing their jobs.

 

You seem to be attacking a strawman argument here.

[mobb_deep 917]

Got some nothing burgers for all you babies. Who cares.

[ChinaCat 21]

 

Hate groups are associated with the problem they are kneeling about, sure. But as I understand it, the kneeling is specifically about governmental oppression. Unarmed black man after unarmed black man being killed by police, with no repercussions in most cases.

How about unarmed black men being killed by armed black men? Do you have a comment on that? Or armed police being shot at by armed black men. Any comment?

 

Because those 2 scenarios happen a hell of a lot more often than unarmed black men being killed by police.

[polecatt 402]

 

It's governmental racial oppression. Why are you trying to separate the two?

 

Why are they kneeling at games? It's not because they are trying to 'disrespect the NFL' or 'disrespect the flag'. It's because their kneeling is an incredibly effective method, one of the best they have available, of making their message heard.

 

Here's the thing--I'm an NFL fan. I watch the games. I believe very strongly in the foundational principles of the USA, our Constitution (now that we have all that slavery out of it), and our freedoms. And yet they aren't making me feel insulted, or angry, when they kneel. Because I understand that they aren't kneeling as a way to upset me. They aren't aiming this all at me. And they aren't aiming at the things I think are important--freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. Their protest isn't about that. They are protesting government-approved racism and oppression. Which I also oppose.

 

So why should I be upset if they kneel for a song played about our flag?

Hate groups aren't governmental, that's why

It's not so much how I feel about any of it personally, it's that I think they are doing more harm than good because their message is vague and unclear, which leads to content

[Law 220]

Embarrassed to be a Steelers fan today.

[blackhawks 5]

Breaking News

 

Pittsburgh Steelers(as a team) will NOT be on field for National Anthem at Soldiers Field in Chicago. They will be in locker rm during the anthem as a sign of unity and return to field afterwards.

[ChinaCat 21]

Good for them

 

 

JOHN KASICH IN 2020

(hell he would have won over Clinton in 2016)

[brotherbock 349]

How about unarmed black men being killed by armed black men? Do you have a comment on that? Or armed police being shot at by armed black men. Any comment?

 

Because those 2 scenarios happen a hell of a lot more often than unarmed black men being killed by police.

 

Quiet, the adults are talking.

[ChinaCat 21]

Breaking News

 

Pittsburgh Steelers(as a team) will NOT be on field for National Anthem at Soldiers Field in Chicago. They will be in locker rm during the anthem as a sign of unity and return to field afterwards.

I'm changing my knockout pool pick.

[mobb_deep 917]

Embarrassed to be a Steelers fan today.

Embarrassed to be an American every time our president acts like a moron on Twitter. All Americans should reject the anthem until our leader starts leading instead of acting like a 12 year old snowflake. Who knows, maybe then he'll even get some legislation through. That would be a first.

[ChinaCat 21]

 

Quiet, the adults are talking.

Is that your stock reply when you can't articulate an answer?

[WR Guru 31]

If Trump's objective was to truly to stop these player demonstrations and not just make himself the center of attention, then he did exactly the wrong thing with his remarks. Now, a lot of individuals who may have opposed or at least been ambivalent about the demonstrations are going to join in as a middle finger to Trump himself. He just sent this movement into overdrive. Seeing a report right now that the Steelers will stay in the locker room during the anthem. The flood gate is opened.

[ChinaCat 21]

Embarrassed to be an American every time our president acts like a moron on Twitter. All Americans should reject the anthem until our leader starts leading instead of acting like a 12 year old snowflake.

Most of America agrees with him.

 

You never learn. That's why you lost the last time.

[brotherbock 349]

Hate groups aren't governmental, that's why

It's not so much how I feel about any of it personally, it's that I think they are doing more harm than good because their message is vague and unclear, which leads to content

 

But hate groups aren't the only source of racism, that's the issue. Certainly you don't think that racism in this country is confined to designated hate groups. There are governmental policies, and actions by governmental officials not explicitely written into policy, that are oppressive to people of color. That much is clear. And that's largely what's being protested. Our government does bad things. In many places. And it's actually patriotic to recognize that and try to fix it, not blindly accept everything the government does (not saying you are doing that).

 

So it's fine to think they are not going to be effective. But clearly, the emotion behind OP's post is not just that they aren't effective, and are vague.

[brotherbock 349]

Is that your stock reply when you can't articulate an answer?

 

Yes. Clearly I have not been able to articulate myself in this thread.

[ChinaCat 21]

If Trump's objective was to truly to stop these player demonstrations and not just make himself the center of attention, then he did exactly the wrong thing with his remarks. Now, a lot of individuals who may have opposed or at least been ambivalent about the demonstrations are going to join in as a middle finger to Trump himself. He just sent this movement into overdrive. Seeing a report right now that the Steelers will stay in the locker room during the anthem. The flood gate is opened.

Good. That's what Trump intended to do.

 

Watch NFL attendance the next few weeks and then watch the reaction by the team owners and the NFL itself.

 

Trump plays you dolts like a fiddle.

[mobb_deep 917]

Most of America agrees with him.

 

You never learn. That's why you lost the last time.

Lowest approval rating in history... Also, i'm not a liberal. I'm just not a moron. This isn't Ronald Reagan. This is Robald McDonald. Nice try though.

 

Maybe go to the geek club? That's where the other racist idiots hang out.

[blackhawks 5]

If Trump's objective was to truly to stop these player demonstrations and not just make himself the center of attention, then he did exactly the wrong thing with his remarks. Now, a lot of individuals who may have opposed or at least been ambivalent about the demonstrations are going to join in as a middle finger to Trump himself. He just sent this movement into overdrive. Seeing a report right now that the Steelers will stay in the locker room during the anthem. The flood gate is opened.

this^

[seafoam1 1,879]

 

It's possible some people feel pressured. But if in fact 'all the owners' are against it like everyone is saying, I'd think the pressure to not protest would be stronger. If it's really that unpopular.

 

It's fine to not want protesting in some places, to be clear I'm not saying that opinion is 'racist' or anything. But you'll just find a lot of people who disagree strongly about where protest is appropriate and where it isn't. MLK's famous 'Letter from a Birmingham Jail' (great read) is a letter written to southern clergy who were telling King that his protests were out of place, were 'disturbing the peace', and that he needed to stop riling people up. King's response is very interesting.

 

https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/coretexts/_files/resources/texts/1963_MLK_Letter_Abridged.pdf

Ive read that before. I don't agree with everthing these players are protesting (according to some players words that I have heard prior) but even if I did, their actions are too polarizing. They would have bigger impact If they spent their personal time and own financial resources to organize communities in whatever is they care about. Then use their own name recognition and take to a larger puvlic.

 

To me football is entertainment, and that is how I use it. I don't want to see Bruce Willis take a kneel down for 60 seconds at the beginning of Diehard. This entertainment is a brief escape from world disputes, work matters, and basic daily chores or community obligations many of us have. And that is what I thought the true nature of entertainment is supposed to provide. SNL has completely been ruined by this. The days of old SNL are long gone.

[Gepetto 985]

They disrespect the flag and they disrespect our country. No matter how they try to spin it.

 

Also, they are basically calling whites racist.

 

They are being rude and insulting.

[Law 220]

Is that your stock reply when you can't articulate an answer?

Yes it is. If you don't absolutely agree with the way the tell you to think, they dismiss and your right to have an opinion.

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

No problem with kneeling. Don't understand why anyone gets worked up about it. Our president chiming in is the topper. I'm sure you have better things to do sir