Nike is Bowing Out of the Golf Equipment Business

[Cruzer 1,992]

Sugar Tree today. Shot an 84.

Meant to say, that's a very respectable score there - S. Tree is a tough track.. What kind of shape is it in - what did you do on #12?

[cbfalcon 824]

Meant to say, that's a very respectable score there - S. Tree is a tough track.. What kind of shape is it in - what did you do on #12?

 

Greens were very fast and smooth, yet had been watered so heavily that I was leaving large ball marks on every hole. I actually embedded on #7 (Par 3 from top of hill) over half a ball deep. I'd never seen a ball so deeply embedded on a green. Fairways were fine. I didn't think anything one way or the other.

 

#12...I pushed my tee shot a hair, but no danger. Ended up right edge of green. Had maybe 30 feet. Blew it 6 feet by the hole, then missed the comeback and made bogey. One of my three 3 putts on the day.

[cbfalcon 824]

Let's talk driver shafts and length...

 

As many know, Tiger used a 43.5" driver shaft early in his career. Bubba Watson uses a 44.5" shaft. I may be mistaken, but I believe I've read PGA pros tend to average 44"....Yet because more length creates higher swing speeds, and because we are simple minded, most of our drivers shafts are 45"-46".

 

My last two were 45.75" and now 46". And while I'm solid with it (relatively speaking), I've always felt some discomfort with the length, and almost all my best driving days are days I decided to choke up an inch or two. I feel I control it better and can go harder at it....I choked up on the back 9 yesterday and started playing well, and I thought "I sure do always feel better like this. Maybe I should just make it permanent."

 

I'm not an equipment tech guy, so I ask...Is it more common to cut an inch or 2 off the butt end, or do we have any shafts out there designed at 44"? I know cutting the shaft affects swing weight and kick points, etc, but I've also read that it is negligible and I'd likely never notice.

 

I have a Vapor Fly, and I'm half inclined to buy a whole new shaft that is 44" and the Nike shaft adaptor. Then I can just change it in and then back out if for some reason this backfires....but google is failing me. What's the norm here?

[DankNuggs 305]

Get a custom shaft st the proper length. I have a ping G30 and an Oban purple shaft

 

Like you said shafts are designed for certain kickpoints and weight

[WhiteWonder 2,171]

and ditch nike.

 

 

but yeah what dank said. generally speaking, a longer shaft is going to allow you to generate more clubhead speed but for non pros, the best thing you can do is play a shaft that suits your game, length wise. and eve those pros have everything tweaked to perfection in terms of weight, kick point, stiffness etc..

 

i think, Jimmy Walker? is now playing a very short shafted driver. just slightly longer than most tour 3 woods.

[Filthy Fernadez 2,696]

Nike Golf equipment.....underscoring why you don't buy stuff just because someone famous got paid to use it.

[cbfalcon 824]

I didn't choose the Nike Driver because of style....even if it is damn cool looking, just like me. It was all about the numbers on the launch monitor. So suck it.

 

And you guys are losing the plot.

[Cruzer 1,992]

Let's talk driver shafts and length...

 

As many know, Tiger used a 43.5" driver shaft early in his career. Bubba Watson uses a 44.5" shaft. I may be mistaken, but I believe I've read PGA pros tend to average 44"....Yet because more length creates higher swing speeds, and because we are simple minded, most of our drivers shafts are 45"-46".

 

My last two were 45.75" and now 46". And while I'm solid with it (relatively speaking), I've always felt some discomfort with the length, and almost all my best driving days are days I decided to choke up an inch or two. I feel I control it better and can go harder at it....I choked up on the back 9 yesterday and started playing well, and I thought "I sure do always feel better like this. Maybe I should just make it permanent."

 

I'm not an equipment tech guy, so I ask...Is it more common to cut an inch or 2 off the butt end, or do we have any shafts out there designed at 44"? I know cutting the shaft affects swing weight and kick points, etc, but I've also read that it is negligible and I'd likely never notice.

I've said for many years here - the shaft is the most important part of a any golf club.

 

As far as shaft length - there is no one right answer.. Club makers figured out long ago that you don't sell $500 drivers by promoting accuracy - you mass sell $500 drivers by promoting DISTANCE. The average 18 handicap is incapable of understanding that they would improve faster by hitting more fairways, opposed to finding 15 more yards... Well the professionals have (and do) understand it - thus, a lot of pros don't have 45 - 46" shafts. Now granted, they're capable of generating more than enuff club head spead on their own, so they can afford to give some up.. But most will tell you they hit it just as far, if not farther, with shorter shafts bcoz they hit the center of the face more........... Even if I weren't a short guy, I'd still play nothing more than a 44.5" shaft in my driver - which is what I currently have now.

 

As far as cutting it down.. Depends on what you want... Most pros will tip trim their shafts - which makes them stiffer.. Most high handicaps butt trim theirs - which does make it a little more stiff, but not much.

[WhiteWonder 2,171]

I didn't choose the Nike Driver because of style....even if it is damn cool looking, just like me. It was all about the numbers on the launch monitor. So suck it.

 

And you guys are losing the plot.

 

no i've got the plot. Im just saying, Nike kind of sucks overall. I wasn't being completely serious though. If you like it, you like it. As Cruzer noted, the shaft is the most important part of the club. The clubhead itself, while somewhat meaningful in technology, is much more about what fits your eye (size, shape, design) as you stand over the tee shot. That's where the mental side comes in. For example if you can't get over driver head being white, chances are you wont ever be comfortable hitting one and definitely won't excel with one. Remember the Nike and Callaway square headed drivers?

 

but as far as the numbers on the launch monitor, they have a lot more to do with the combination of shaft brand, flex, kick point, etc being right for you. Assuming its off the rack, then that Nike driver most likely had the best stock shaft for you. If you paired the exact same shaft with an M2 head or something else, you might see the same or even better results.

 

I play a Rocketballz (original model) driver. I like the driver head, shape wise... but its from the white head fad. I've thought about sending it to continental golf to be repainted matte gray... but the stock Matrix Ozik shaft that came in the tour model is really nice and that is the main reason I bought it. I sometimes play around with shafts (insert joke here). I have a taylor made rescue dual TP that I love and have had for maybe 10 years. A few seasons ago, I swapped out the steel shaft for an Aldila NVS rescue shaft. I added length over the steel and went with extra stiff due to the fact that those model Aldila are not all that stiff, comparatively. I retained the accuracy I always had with it and added the yardage I was hoping for. I had previously played the Aldila NVS (orange) shaft in my old Callaway FT-3 driver and 3 wood.

 

I've said for many years here - the shaft is the most important part of a any golf club.

 

 

100% correct

[DankNuggs 305]

 

no i've got the plot. Im just saying, Nike kind of sucks overall. I wasn't being completely serious though. If you like it, you like it. As Cruzer noted, the shaft is the most important part of the club. The clubhead itself, while somewhat meaningful in technology, is much more about what fits your eye (size, shape, design) as you stand over the tee shot. That's where the mental side comes in. For example if you can't get over driver head being white, chances are you wont ever be comfortable hitting one and definitely won't excel with one. Remember the Nike and Callaway square headed drivers?

 

but as far as the numbers on the launch monitor, they have a lot more to do with the combination of shaft brand, flex, kick point, etc being right for you. Assuming its off the rack, then that Nike driver most likely had the best stock shaft for you. If you paired the exact same shaft with an M2 head or something else, you might see the same or even better results.

 

I play a Rocketballz (original model) driver. I like the driver head, shape wise... but its from the white head fad. I've thought about sending it to continental golf to be repainted matte gray... but the stock Matrix Ozik shaft that came in the tour model is really nice and that is the main reason I bought it. I sometimes play around with shafts (insert joke here). I have a taylor made rescue dual TP that I love and have had for maybe 10 years. A few seasons ago, I swapped out the steel shaft for an Aldila NVS rescue shaft. I added length over the steel and went with extra stiff due to the fact that those model Aldila are not all that stiff, comparatively. I retained the accuracy I always had with it and added the yardage I was hoping for. I had previously played the Aldila NVS (orange) shaft in my old Callaway FT-3 driver and 3 wood.

 

 

100% correct

This is good advice.. The G30 is the most forgiving head i've ever hit, and the oban shaft loads up so nicely you don't have to feel like you need to kill the ball. Just a controlled take away and let the club do the work. Launch monitor had ridiculously low spin rates compared to the stock stuff and other shaft, was in the low 2000's... Ball almost seems like its knuckling in flight sometimes, i tend to launch high on all my clubs, so with the driver its interesting with high launch of low spin rates.

[cbfalcon 824]

Lets talk shafts then.

 

I've either been pretty lucky in that I'm kind of standard, or over the years I've been using non optimal shafts and have just adapted, or I could be way better if I wasn't stupid. Maybe all 3.

 

Aside from testing, what do you all look for in a shaft?

[Cruzer 1,992]

Aside from testing, what do you all look for in a shaft?

it sounds really simple, but it is just that.

 

What I look for in a shaft:

 

- A shaft that allows me to maximize my total overall driving (combo of distance and accuracy), with my own natural swing... Way too many high handicaps try to fit their swings to a shaft, when it should be the total other way around.

 

- A shaft that most fits my ball flight.. I tend to hit it higher, so high kick pointed, really low torqued shafts are not exactly for me.

 

- A shaft who's weight feels comfortable. I like the light weighted speed shafts, a lot of players like the 70-90 gram heavier feel.

 

- A shaft that fits my eye aesthetically, if it doesn't look good in your hand, you're going to fall out of favor with it quicker.

[WhiteWonder 2,171]

Lets talk shafts then.

 

I've either been pretty lucky in that I'm kind of standard, or over the years I've been using non optimal shafts and have just adapted, or I could be way better if I wasn't stupid. Maybe all 3.

 

Aside from testing, what do you all look for in a shaft?

 

long, thick and black in color

 

 

but really what cruzer said, minus the aesthetics. I mean, i suppose if youve got a bright pink bubba shaft that bothers you visually, but most shafts do not even draw my eyes attention as im standing over a tee shot.

 

i've never adjusted my swing based on the shaft of a club. im a high ball hitter so I look for combinations that will keep my spin rate down and my trajectory boring. My goal off the tee being to get the maximum combination of air time and run out. I play a stiff flex in my woods because, generally speaking, regular flex for me is not something I can control, accuracy wise, without changing my swing. And a softer shaft will almost always result in pulls/hooks off the tee for me.

 

Im playing stiff in my irons right now as well but have considered going back to regular or at least trying other brands of stiff (remember not all manufacturers are equal). I am accurate but have lost a little distance and can't exactly shape the ball the way I used to (but there are more factors to this for example my old irons were not forged... which could explain the distance... although generally speaking cast is less workable for shot shapes).

 

I have never gone for professional fitting. I've had some done long ago when I worked in the golf industry, and while there is merit to having it done I personally believe its a money sink and you are far better off doing your own testing and finding what fits you, especially if you're an avid golfer and have the time to tinker around.

 

I remember an older guy I worked with when I was in high school could hit the crap out of a womens flex 7 iron.

 

To me, personally, nothing is going to beat correcting swing flaws, practicing solid swing mechanics and practice in general.

 

It sounds like you've already discovered that you are better off the tee when you grip down a bit. Exploring a shorter and then testing out various flex and kick points may give you an optimal combination of distance and dispersion.

[edjr 5,561]

Lets talk shafts then.

 

 

I'm listening

[DankNuggs 305]

Lets talk shafts then.

 

I've either been pretty lucky in that I'm kind of standard, or over the years I've been using non optimal shafts and have just adapted, or I could be way better if I wasn't stupid. Maybe all 3.

 

Aside from testing, what do you all look for in a shaft?

launch angle, spin rate.... dispersion to a certain degree... best to use the same head and swap shafts at a fitter. worth doing once...

[cbfalcon 824]

Even if I weren't a short guy, I'd still play nothing more than a 44.5" shaft in my driver - which is what I currently have now.

 

 

 

I am assuming you started at 45.5" or even 46". So after getting it cut, how did you add swingweight back into the driver? I'm

 

Google is saying half inch of shaft is worth 3 SW Points.....4" of lead tape = 1 swingweight point.So if you cut an 1" off, that's 24" of lead tape? insane.

[Cruzer 1,992]

 

I am assuming you started at 45.5" or even 46". So after getting it cut, how did you add swingweight back into the driver? I'm

 

Google is saying half inch of shaft is worth 3 SW Points.....4" of lead tape = 1 swingweight point.So if you cut an 1" off, that's 24" of lead tape? insane.

I actually didn't.. Like I said, I like my driver shafts as light as I can possibly get them - up till the point they don't perform as designed.

[BudBro 117]

 

I am assuming you started at 45.5" or even 46". So after getting it cut, how did you add swingweight back into the driver? I'm

 

Google is saying half inch of shaft is worth 3 SW Points.....4" of lead tape = 1 swingweight point.So if you cut an 1" off, that's 24" of lead tape? insane.

 

http://www.balancecertified.com/products.html

[cbfalcon 824]

Got it cut down to 44.5". I figured I'd hold off on worrying about swingweight, as I obviously didn't add weight when choking down.

 

Feels good at address and taking practice swings. Pretty sure this will knock 4 strokes off my handicap. I'm an optimist.

[cbfalcon 824]

 

choking down isn't going to remove any club weight. the club would feel a little different but be just as heavy. cutting it will result in a direct loss of weight. How noticeable it is to you will depend on how sensitive you are to it. since you already were reading about it, my guess is it will be in your mind and you will indeed notice it.

Choking down won't affect club weight, but it does affect swing weight. That much I know.

 

And yeah, I read plenty. But I'm the type to overthink ahead of time, but once the decision has been made, I go with it and rarely give it another thought.

[Cruzer 1,992]

Got it cut down to 44.5". I figured I'd hold off on worrying about swingweight, as I obviously didn't add weight when choking down.

Feels good at address and taking practice swings. Pretty sure this will knock 4 strokes off my handicap. I'm an optimist.

If you do add lead tape, careful wher you put it.

 

Tape on the heel will lead to a more hook tendency.. On the toe, promotes a fade.

[cbfalcon 824]

If you do add lead tape, careful wher you put it.

 

Tape on the heel will lead to a more hook tendency.. On the toe, promotes a fade.

Yeah, I was looking at the tape and the box illustrated it.

 

They also showed bottom of the club promoting higher launch, and top promoting lower launch. But I'm not going to sweat it for the time being. Hidden Creek on Saturday.

[WhiteWonder 2,171]

Choking down won't affect club weight, but it does affect swing weight. That much I know.

 

And yeah, I read plenty. But I'm the type to overthink ahead of time, but once the decision has been made, I go with it and rarely give it another thought.

To a degree. But if I remember, not to the same degree as you'll still have that weight in the butt of the club above you hands. Choking down doesn't usually effect the specs of a shaft as much as cutting it. But as Cruzer mentioned before a cut at the butt will impact less than a tip cut

[cbfalcon 824]

To a degree. But if I remember, not to the same degree as you'll still have that weight in the butt of the club above you hands. Choking down doesn't usually effect the specs of a shaft as much as cutting it. But as Cruzer mentioned before a cut at the butt will impact less than a tip cut

 

I doubt I'm teaching you anything, as you are more technical than I am on equipment.....But just making sure we are on the same page..

 

Swing weight is different than club weight.. Grab a driver where you normally would, now grab it half way up the shaft. The head weight will feel very light when holding halfway up the shaft...Without googling for better words, swing weight is how heavy the clubhead feels, relatively. ....a 1 pound club and a 10 pound club can have the same swingweight, if that makes sense.

 

Based on reading, yes cutting 1.5" off the shaft affected the actual club weight. And it likely changed the flex and frequency in some minute way. But in theory, the swing weight would be the same as when I choked down. Or at least close enough that I wouldn't perceive any difference.

[Cruzer 1,992]

Even at 44.5", I still grip down on my driver - I do on all my clubs... Don't get caught up in maximizing club length as a barometer for purity and/or distance...... The single most important element to purity and distance is hitting the sweet spot. It is exactly why punch shots will often travel just as far as an all out full swing shot - won't go as high, but will travel damn near as far.

[WhiteWonder 2,171]

 

I doubt I'm teaching you anything, as you are more technical than I am on equipment.....But just making sure we are on the same page..

 

Swing weight is different than club weight.. Grab a driver where you normally would, now grab it half way up the shaft. The head weight will feel very light when holding halfway up the shaft...Without googling for better words, swing weight is how heavy the clubhead feels, relatively. ....a 1 pound club and a 10 pound club can have the same swingweight, if that makes sense.

 

Based on reading, yes cutting 1.5" off the shaft affected the actual club weight. And it likely changed the flex and frequency in some minute way. But in theory, the swing weight would be the same as when I choked down. Or at least close enough that I wouldn't perceive any difference.

Yes I was speaking more to cutting a shaft impacting it's flex and kick points. No the swing weight, as you've said.

[cbfalcon 824]

I was pleased with the shortened driver results. Hit 10 of 14 fairways on a reasonably tough driving course, as there are no wide open holes really. And 3 of the 4 misses were playable enough to have a go at the green.

 

Numbers aside....a lot more confidence. And the ability to sweet spot it was greatly improved. Distance loss on the best strikes was negligible. One notable difference was I felt like my ball flight was lower. But I'll give that a few more rounds before making any declarations there.

[Cruzer 1,992]

I was pleased with the shortened driver results. Hit 10 of 14 fairways on a reasonably tough driving course, as there are no wide open holes really. And 3 of the 4 misses were playable enough to have a go at the green.

 

Numbers aside....a lot more confidence. And the ability to sweet spot it was greatly improved. Distance loss on the best strikes was negligible. One notable difference was I felt like my ball flight was lower. But I'll give that a few more rounds before making any declarations there.

When trying to get folks to grasp this concept, I use a hammer to illustrate....... I give them a block of wood, a nail and a hammer - tell them to drive the nail into the block.

 

Every single one of them, w/out exception, chokes up and grabs the hammer close to the head, and every single one of them takes controlled short swings with it at the nail.

 

Why? Bcoz doing it that way 1) it's safer, ensures you won't hurt yourself, 2) gives you the best chance to hit the nail head solid, 3) gives you the best chance to hit the nail head square and 4) it's simply more effective.... Could you drive it deeper with gigantic long ass all out swings? Sure, of course - but you're prolly only going to pull that miracle hit out of your ass 1 out of 50 tries. The other 49 you are going to beat the hell out of your other hand and and/or hit that nail so far off line that you've ruined it.................................... The golf swing is no different... You will see consistently more solid shots with shorter, compact swings and clubs.. And what distance you sacrifice will hardly be noticeable bcoz a ball in the fairway usually travels farther than one off-line.

[vuduchile 1,941]

When trying to get folks to grasp this concept, I use a hammer to illustrate....... I give them a block of wood, a nail and a hammer - tell them to drive the nail into the block.

 

Every single one of them, w/out exception, chokes up and grabs the hammer close to the head, and every single one of them takes controlled short swings with it at the nail.

 

Why? Bcoz doing it that way 1) it's safer, ensures you won't hurt yourself, 2) gives you the best chance to hit the nail head solid, 3) gives you the best chance to hit the nail head square and 4) it's simply more effective.... Could you drive it deeper with gigantic long ass all out swings? Sure, of course - but you're prolly only going to pull that miracle hit out of your ass 1 out of 50 tries. The other 49 you are going to beat the hell out of your other hand and and/or hit that nail so far off line that you've ruined it.................................... The golf swing is no different... You will see consistently more solid shots with shorter, compact swings and clubs.. And what distance you sacrifice will hardly be noticeable bcoz a ball in the fairway usually travels farther than one off-line.

Terrible analogy. Grabbing the hammer near the head causes you to exert much more effort to drive the nail, and kills the leverage built into the tool

 

Choking up on the hammer to get the nail started is fine, but you need to choke down on the hammer and allow leverage to work as it was intended.

 

Have you ever actually built anything with a hammer and nail?

 

https://www.bobvila.com/articles/978-how-to-use-a-hammer/#.WIZHi4o8LCQ

[WhiteWonder 2,171]

the above is a cute way to look at it and while I dont completely disagree with the message, I see some flaws with it.

 

honestly, if you told me to hammer the nail into the wood, I would likely choke up a little and take small, controlled hits until the nail head was flush with the wood.... If you tell me to drive the nail into the wood (like i have one chance at it) i'm likely going to be holding the hammer further down the handle and taking one solid swing.

 

see, I don't practice hammering nails like I practice hitting tee shots. I'm fairly certain I would bend that nail if I took one bigger whack at it.

 

there is no follow through as there is with the golf swing and with the golf swing, there are many different way to swing the club and still be square at impact.

 

taking an inch off your driver shaft or choking up on the grip of the club isn't really going to be nearly the same as using a hammer and holding it near the head.

 

 

but I do understand that the general point is accuracy over power and I am a believer that the game becomes amazingly easier when you're hitting all your 2nd shots from the fairway with no obstruction versus being 30 yards closer.

[Cruzer 1,992]

Terrible analogy. Grabbing the hammer near the head causes you to exert much more effort to drive the nail, and kills the leverage built into the tool

 

Choking up on the hammer to get the nail started is fine, but you need to choke down on the hammer and allow leverage to work as it was intended.

 

Have you ever actually built anything with a hammer and nail?

 

https://www.bobvila.com/articles/978-how-to-use-a-hammer/#.WIZHi4o8LCQ

Grabbing it close to the head was a bad way to say it... They grab it middle ways. But it's a hammer, not a broom. With an object as short as it is, when you choke up - you're at middle or closer to the head already.

 

But I'm not building houses, I'm teaching people how to play golf. And it has been a very effective teaching tool.

[Cruzer 1,992]

I was pleased with the shortened driver results. Hit 10 of 14 fairways on a reasonably tough driving course, as there are no wide open holes really. And 3 of the 4 misses were playable enough to have a go at the green.

 

Numbers aside....a lot more confidence. And the ability to sweet spot it was greatly improved. Distance loss on the best strikes was negligible. One notable difference was I felt like my ball flight was lower. But I'll give that a few more rounds before making any declarations there.

Jimmy Walker was on the GC this a.m.... He has gone to a 43" driver this year,.

[WhiteWonder 2,171]

 

i think, Jimmy Walker? is now playing a very short shafted driver. just slightly longer than most tour 3 woods.

[KSB2424 3,083]

Driver: Taylormade M2

3W and 3h: Adams Super S

Irons: 4 thru PW Mizuno MX-23's

Wedges: 52 & 58 Cleveland 588 RTX

Putter: Odyssey w/ SuperStroke mid-slim 2.0 grip

Ball: Srixon Z-Star

Handicap: 14 ish per my phone app

Average Rounds Per Year: 32

 

But the strongest part of my game is my dope golf gear. I've got a Payne Stewart kango that I got from a strip club. And cool arse golf shirts from courses all around my hood.

 

Word to your Mother

[WhiteWonder 2,171]

Driver: Taylormade M2

3W and 3h: Adams Super S

Irons: 4 thru PW Mizuno MX-23's

Wedges: 52 & 58 Cleveland 588 RTX

Putter: Odyssey w/ SuperStroke mid-slim 2.0 grip

Ball: Srixon Z-Star

Handicap: 14 ish per my phone app

Average Rounds Per Year: 32

 

But the strongest part of my game is my dope golf gear. I've got a Payne Stewart kango that I got from a strip club. And cool arse golf shirts from courses all around my hood.

 

Word to your Mother

 

save it for the whats in the bag thread!

[KSB2424 3,083]

 

save it for the whats in the bag thread!

Premature Ebagulation?

[cbfalcon 824]

12 of 14 fairways hit. Granted, Canyon West is a much easier driving course, but I'm thrilled with the 44.5" driver length. It's a feeling of wondering what the helll I have been doing swinging a boat oar the past 20 years.

 

But this being golf, I had to suck somehow still on route to an 82. Wasn't making putts.

[Cruzer 1,992]

12 of 14 fairways hit. Granted, Canyon West is a much easier driving course, but I'm thrilled with the 44.5" driver length. It's a feeling of wondering what the helll I have been doing swinging a boat oar the past 20 years.

 

But this being golf, I had to suck somehow still on route to an 82. Wasn't making putts.

I hate that golf course.. Unless it's a charity function, I'm out.... No way I'm driving all the way out there and not driving the extra 8 miles to Sugar Tree.

[cbfalcon 824]

I hate that golf course.. Unless it's a charity function, I'm out.... No way I'm driving all the way out there and not driving the extra 8 miles to Sugar Tree.

 

Really? It's one of my favorites in terms of fun. Unique holes, lots of elevation changes, always in great condition, etc.

 

Sugar Tree is much more challenging no doubt.

[Cruzer 1,992]

 

Really? It's one of my favorites in terms of fun. Unique holes, lots of elevation changes, always in great condition, etc.

 

Sugar Tree is much more challenging no doubt.

It is a pretty piece of land, and the elevation changes are nice.. I prolly overstated it a bit - I don't actually "hate" it, but I certainly have no love for it either... CW is very playable and the ever present wind offers challenges for sure, but it lacks any real fanfare. To me, it's basically WhiteStone - and I can't justify driving 50 miles to play it.. I'd literally rather shoot 85 on Sugar Tree than 74 at CW.