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Krugman: Getting to Crazy


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#1 MedStudent

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:30 PM

:headbanger: :banana: :first:

Getting to Crazy

There aren’t many positive aspects to the looming possibility of a U.S. debt default. But there has been, I have to admit, an element of comic relief — of the black-humor variety — in the spectacle of so many people who have been in denial suddenly waking up and smelling the crazy.

A number of commentators seem shocked at how unreasonable Republicans are being. “Has the G.O.P. gone insane?” they ask.

Why, yes, it has. But this isn’t something that just happened, it’s the culmination of a process that has been going on for decades. Anyone surprised by the extremism and irresponsibility now on display either hasn’t been paying attention, or has been deliberately turning a blind eye.

And may I say to those suddenly agonizing over the mental health of one of our two major parties: People like you bear some responsibility for that party’s current state.

Let’s talk for a minute about what Republican leaders are rejecting.

President Obama has made it clear that he’s willing to sign on to a deficit-reduction deal that consists overwhelmingly of spending cuts, and includes draconian cuts in key social programs, up to and including a rise in the age of Medicare eligibility. These are extraordinary concessions. As The Times’s Nate Silver points out, the president has offered deals that are far to the right of what the average American voter prefers — in fact, if anything, they’re a bit to the right of what the average Republican voter prefers!

Yet Republicans are saying no. Indeed, they’re threatening to force a U.S. default, and create an economic crisis, unless they get a completely one-sided deal. And this was entirely predictable.

First of all, the modern G.O.P. fundamentally does not accept the legitimacy of a Democratic presidency — any Democratic presidency. We saw that under Bill Clinton, and we saw it again as soon as Mr. Obama took office.

As a result, Republicans are automatically against anything the president wants, even if they have supported similar proposals in the past. Mitt Romney’s health care plan became a tyrannical assault on American freedom when put in place by that man in the White House. And the same logic applies to the proposed debt deals.

Put it this way: If a Republican president had managed to extract the kind of concessions on Medicare and Social Security that Mr. Obama is offering, it would have been considered a conservative triumph. But when those concessions come attached to minor increases in revenue, and more important, when they come from a Democratic president, the proposals become unacceptable plans to tax the life out of the U.S. economy.

Beyond that, voodoo economics has taken over the G.O.P.

Supply-side voodoo — which claims that tax cuts pay for themselves and/or that any rise in taxes would lead to economic collapse — has been a powerful force within the G.O.P. ever since Ronald Reagan embraced the concept of the Laffer curve. But the voodoo used to be contained. Reagan himself enacted significant tax increases, offsetting to a considerable extent his initial cuts.

And even the administration of former President George W. Bush refrained from making extravagant claims about tax-cut magic, at least in part for fear that making such claims would raise questions about the administration’s seriousness.

Recently, however, all restraint has vanished — indeed, it has been driven out of the party. Last year Mitch McConnell, the Senate minority leader, asserted that the Bush tax cuts actually increased revenue — a claim completely at odds with the evidence — and also declared that this was “the view of virtually every Republican on that subject.” And it’s true: even Mr. Romney, widely regarded as the most sensible of the contenders for the 2012 presidential nomination, has endorsed the view that tax cuts can actually reduce the deficit.

Which brings me to the culpability of those who are only now facing up to the G.O.P.’s craziness.

Here’s the point: those within the G.O.P. who had misgivings about the embrace of tax-cut fanaticism might have made a stronger stand if there had been any indication that such fanaticism came with a price, if outsiders had been willing to condemn those who took irresponsible positions.

But there has been no such price. Mr. Bush squandered the surplus of the late Clinton years, yet prominent pundits pretend that the two parties share equal blame for our debt problems. Paul Ryan, the chairman of the House Budget Committee, proposed a supposed deficit-reduction plan that included huge tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy, then received an award for fiscal responsibility.

So there has been no pressure on the G.O.P. to show any kind of responsibility, or even rationality — and sure enough, it has gone off the deep end. If you’re surprised, that means that you were part of the problem.

http://www.nytimes.c...r=2&ref=opinion


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#2 KSB2424

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:46 PM

President Obama has made it clear that he’s willing to sign on to a deficit-reduction deal that consists overwhelmingly of spending cuts, and includes draconian cuts in key social programs, up to and including a rise in the age of Medicare eligibility. These are extraordinary concessions


I've heard this before, but I still have't seen anything (numbers, details, etc.) in writing. So what exactly is being cut or reduced? Can somebody link me to it as I'm interested. All I've heard are vague comments.

:dunno:
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#3 Reality

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:47 PM

Krugman lol.

Good one.

#4 Recliner Pilot

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:51 PM

I've heard this before, but I still have't seen anything (numbers, details, etc.) in writing. So what exactly is being cut or reduced? Can somebody link me to it as I'm interested. All I've heard are vague comments.

:dunno:


This Krugman clown is like MDC and Medstoopid. If Obama says it, it's written in stone. :doh:

The ONLY thing Obama has put into writing is his budget that increases spending and adds $10 Trillion to the debt over the next 10 years. That turd went down 97-0 in the Dem controlled Senate.

Since then it's been nothing more than Magic Words. That's enough to fool the Krugmans, MDCs, and Medstoopids of the world.......not enough to fool intelligent people.
Obama really inherited a mess for his second term.

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#5 BunnysBastatrds

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:04 PM

First of all, the modern G.O.P. fundamentally does not accept the legitimacy of a Democratic presidency — any Democratic presidency. We saw that under Bill Clinton, and we saw it again as soon as Mr. Obama took office.


I stopped reading right there.

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#6 Strike

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:08 PM

I've heard this before, but I still have't seen anything (numbers, details, etc.) in writing. So what exactly is being cut or reduced? Can somebody link me to it as I'm interested. All I've heard are vague comments.

:dunno:


In this morning's press conference a reporter asked him for ONE, just a SINGLE specific cut Obama was in favor of. As usual Obama deflected the question and didn't answer it.
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#7 BunnysBastatrds

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:15 PM

In this morning's press conference a reporter asked him for ONE, just a SINGLE specific cut Obama was in favor of. As usual Obama deflected the question and didn't answer it.



He's afrad it would have been used in a soundbyte during the upcoming campaign. Get use to these deflections.

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#8 Voltaire

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:19 PM

Krugman was essential reading during the Bush years but I've parted ways with him largely during the Obama presidency, still he sometimes gets things head on and here is a good example of that.

The Republicans have won the debate, they've extracted plenty of concessions. Take your marbles, take the win, and go home. Republicans love to quote Ronald Reagan, Reagan had a strategy, if you can get 80% of what you want in a negotiation, take the deal. He's most famous for his tax cuts but he also raised taxes eleven times in eight years because he had a country to run and had to cooperate with House Dems throughout in order to do it.
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#9 Strike

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:25 PM

Krugman was essential reading during the Bush years but I've parted ways with him largely during the Obama presidency, still he sometimes gets things head on and here is a good example of that.

The Republicans have won the debate, they've extracted plenty of concessions. Take your marbles, take the win, and go home. Republicans love to quote Ronald Reagan, Reagan had a strategy, if you can get 80% of what you want in a negotiation, take the deal. He's most famous for his tax cuts but he also raised taxes eleven times in eight years because he had a country to run and had to cooperate with House Dems throughout in order to do it.


Can you cite, with specificity, what concessions the Republicans have gotten. TIA. :thumbsup:
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#10 Phurfur

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:34 PM

Krugman was essential reading during the Bush years but I've parted ways with him largely during the Obama presidency, still he sometimes gets things head on and here is a good example of that.

The Republicans have won the debate, they've extracted plenty of concessions. Take your marbles, take the win, and go home. Republicans love to quote Ronald Reagan, Reagan had a strategy, if you can get 80% of what you want in a negotiation, take the deal. He's most famous for his tax cuts but he also raised taxes eleven times in eight years because he had a country to run and had to cooperate with House Dems throughout in order to do it.


I remember that, the Dems promised spending cuts that never came.

#11 Voltaire

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:37 PM

Can you cite, with specificity, what concessions the Republicans have gotten. TIA. :thumbsup:

How the fock would I know? These are closed door negotiations and I'm not invited.
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#12 KSB2424

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:39 PM

I'll be honest, if Obama sent out a press release that said:

"In an effort to save the economy, get the republicans to concede to raise the debt ceiling, and try to start the process of reducing the deficit I have offered to cut spending by these things. A. <insert specific cut> B. <insert specific reduction> and C. <insert another item to cut>. However the GOP has resisted to budge one inch on taxes or defense spending."

If he said that then I would be on his side. I'd be looking at the republicans asking them to give some. :dunno:

But all I hear is a bunch of political mumbo jumbo vague promises and whatnot. :wall:
Disclaimer: I have no focking idea what I'm talking about.

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#13 IGotWorms

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:48 PM

I thought this piece from Timothy Egan was pretty good as well:

Who would put at risk, at a time when most people are hurting from a gasping economy, the monthly issuance of life-supporting funds for wounded veterans, disabled children, countless elderly couples living on barely $2,000 a month — all told, over 70 million checks that go out each month?

Who would risk pushing the livelihoods of businesses small and big off a cliff by an interest rate spike, possibly igniting a second recession as the credit-rating agencies have just suggested — essentially saying “blow your brains out, America,” as Warren Buffett phrased it?

Who would risk this anarchists’ storm, rather than a pass a formality: extending the borrowing authority of the United States so the country can pay bills from the past? Certainly, Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, cannot find anyone so reckless in Washington. “Nobody is talking about not raising the debt ceiling,” he said last Sunday. “I haven’t heard that from anybody.”

Either he’s deaf to the roar on his right or he’s speaking exclusively to that diminishing other wing of his party, the Tasseled Loafers. Not only is Michele Bachmann, a leading Republican presidential candidate, saying a government default is nothing to worry about, but a core group of 59 House Republicans have indicated they will not raise the debt ceiling under any circumstances, according to House Speaker John Boehner.

That’s right: no matter how much President Obama gives them — from curbing entitlements to cuts in excess of $3 trillion — this cadre of radical Republicans is taking the burn-it-all-down position. They don’t want to see the terms of a deal because there is no deal they will accept. That’s their stated position.

With this step, what the chaos caucus has proven is that they have no interest in governing. They didn’t go to Washington to find solutions; they went there to destroy the place.


http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/anarchists-and-tasseled-loafers/?ref=opinion

#14 Strike

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:48 PM

How the fock would I know? These are closed door negotiations and I'm not invited.


So maybe, just maybe, the concessions you speak of don't exist or are simply smoke and mirrors? Or do you subscribe to the thought process of "We have to pass the tax cut bill before we can see what's in it."?
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#15 Strike

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:48 PM

I thought this piece from Timothy Egan was pretty good as well:



http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/anarchists-and-tasseled-loafers/?ref=opinion


Except for being a bunch of crap hyperbole that's a great focking piece of writing!!!!
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#16 IGotWorms

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:50 PM

Except for being a bunch of crap hyperbole that's a great focking piece of writing!!!!


Is it not true that a substantial number of House Republicans have stated they are against raising the debt ceiling, period, no matter what the circumstances are or what the Obama Administration offers in return?

And isn't it true that McConnell said they couldn't work with Obama and were done doing anything until his term was up?

Republicans don't want to govern. They want to destroy Obama's presidency and they'll take the rest of the country with them if they have to.

#17 MedStudent

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:58 PM

Another guy who gets it: David Brooks - A conservative columnist.

The Mother of All No-Brainers
By DAVID BROOKS


The Republicans have changed American politics since they took control of the House of Representatives. They have put spending restraint and debt reduction at the top of the national agenda. They have sparked a discussion on entitlement reform. They have turned a bill to raise the debt limit into an opportunity to put the U.S. on a stable fiscal course.

Republican leaders have also proved to be effective negotiators. They have been tough and inflexible and forced the Democrats to come to them. The Democrats have agreed to tie budget cuts to the debt ceiling bill. They have agreed not to raise tax rates. They have agreed to a roughly 3-to-1 rate of spending cuts to revenue increases, an astonishing concession. Moreover, many important Democrats are open to a truly large budget deal. President Obama has a strong incentive to reach a deal so he can campaign in 2012 as a moderate. The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, has talked about supporting a debt reduction measure of $3 trillion or even $4 trillion if the Republicans meet him part way. There are Democrats in the White House and elsewhere who would be willing to accept Medicare cuts if the Republicans would be willing to increase revenues.

If the Republican Party were a normal party, it would take advantage of this amazing moment. It is being offered the deal of the century: trillions of dollars in spending cuts in exchange for a few hundred billion dollars of revenue increases.

A normal Republican Party would seize the opportunity to put a long-term limit on the growth of government. It would seize the opportunity to put the country on a sound fiscal footing. It would seize the opportunity to do these things without putting any real crimp in economic growth.

The party is not being asked to raise marginal tax rates in a way that might pervert incentives. On the contrary, Republicans are merely being asked to close loopholes and eliminate tax expenditures that are themselves distortionary.

This, as I say, is the mother of all no-brainers.

But we can have no confidence that the Republicans will seize this opportunity. That’s because the Republican Party may no longer be a normal party. Over the past few years, it has been infected by a faction that is more of a psychological protest than a practical, governing alternative.

The members of this movement do not accept the logic of compromise, no matter how sweet the terms. If you ask them to raise taxes by an inch in order to cut government by a foot, they will say no. If you ask them to raise taxes by an inch to cut government by a yard, they will still say no.

The members of this movement do not accept the legitimacy of scholars and intellectual authorities. A thousand impartial experts may tell them that a default on the debt would have calamitous effects, far worse than raising tax revenues a bit. But the members of this movement refuse to believe it.

The members of this movement have no sense of moral decency. A nation makes a sacred pledge to pay the money back when it borrows money. But the members of this movement talk blandly of default and are willing to stain their nation’s honor.

The members of this movement have no economic theory worthy of the name. Economists have identified many factors that contribute to economic growth, ranging from the productivity of the work force to the share of private savings that is available for private investment. Tax levels matter, but they are far from the only or even the most important factor.

But to members of this movement, tax levels are everything. Members of this tendency have taken a small piece of economic policy and turned it into a sacred fixation. They are willing to cut education and research to preserve tax expenditures. Manufacturing employment is cratering even as output rises, but members of this movement somehow believe such problems can be addressed so long as they continue to worship their idol.

Over the past week, Democrats have stopped making concessions. They are coming to the conclusion that if the Republicans are fanatics then they better be fanatics, too.

The struggles of the next few weeks are about what sort of party the G.O.P. is — a normal conservative party or an odd protest movement that has separated itself from normal governance, the normal rules of evidence and the ancient habits of our nation.

If the debt ceiling talks fail, independent voters will see that Democrats were willing to compromise but Republicans were not. If responsible Republicans don’t take control, independents will conclude that Republican fanaticism caused this default. They will conclude that Republicans are not fit to govern.

And they will be right.


http://www.nytimes.c...n/05brooks.html


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#18 Voltaire

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:59 PM

So maybe, just maybe, the concessions you speak of don't exist or are simply smoke and mirrors? Or do you subscribe to the thought process of "We have to pass the tax cut bill before we can see what's in it."?


The numbers parameter are out there and not contested by those in negotiations. So something is being cut. Since the Dem's base constituency consists of three groups: "spend money on us", "spend money on us", and "spend money on us" all he can do is p*ss off his own people.

Telling any one of them that they're on the chopping block before a deal is sealed won't go over too well. Special interests will have time to muster their forces and prssure their reps... better to drop a surprise p*ss on them all at one time and due to time constraints rush the vote before they can react.
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#19 IGotWorms

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:01 PM

Another guy who gets it: David Brooks - A conservative columnist.



http://www.nytimes.c...n/05brooks.html


David Brooks is what I like to call a "sane conservative". Too bad there aren't very many of those around anymore. At least not in Congress or the Geek Club. :(

#20 MedStudent

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:03 PM

Is it not true that a substantial number of House Republicans have stated they are against raising the debt ceiling, period, no matter what the circumstances are or what the Obama Administration offers in return?

And isn't it true that McConnell said they couldn't work with Obama and were done doing anything until his term was up?

Republicans don't want to govern. They want to destroy Obama's presidency and they'll take the rest of the country with them if they have to.


The Republicans are becoming the party of GFIAFP. They don't believe they need to pay their debts.

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#21 Phurfur

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:10 PM

Is it not true that a substantial number of House Republicans have stated they are against raising the debt ceiling, period, no matter what the circumstances are or what the Obama Administration offers in return?

And isn't it true that McConnell said they couldn't work with Obama and were done doing anything until his term was up?

Republicans don't want to govern. They want to destroy Obama's presidency and they'll take the rest of the country with them if they have to.

Obama does not need help destroying his presidency. He should have thought of this before he put us $4 trillion in debt in 30 months. Obama spent his money and now he can STFU, he is a failure. Obama and all his buddies must "eat their peas" this time around, I already ate mine.

#22 IGotWorms

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:15 PM

Obama does not need help destroying his presidency. He should have thought of this before he put us $4 trillion in debt in 30 months. Obama spent his money and now he can STFU, he is a failure. Obama and all his buddies must "eat their peas" this time around, I already ate mine.


I get that you don't like Obama and consider him a miserable failure as a President. Fine. You are entitled to your opinion and I'm sure you'll have your vote in 2012. But what I'm saying is that it is incredibly irresponsible to play Russian roulette with the country's economic future simply to try to score some political points and bring Obama down. You and your ilk might well bring the whole country down with him and I'm beginning to get the feeling that you simply don't care. You're a bunch of anarchists as far as I'm concerned.

#23 Phurfur

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:22 PM

I get that you don't like Obama and consider him a miserable failure as a President. Fine. You are entitled to your opinion and I'm sure you'll have your vote in 2012. But what I'm saying is that it is incredibly irresponsible to play Russian roulette with the country's economic future simply to try to score some political points and bring Obama down. You and your ilk might well bring the whole country down with him and I'm beginning to get the feeling that you simply don't care. You're a bunch of anarchists as far as I'm concerned.


You and your ilk are bringing the whole country down.

You seem like a different poster today, I don't agree with you but your presentation is vastly improved.

#24 Recliner Pilot

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:25 PM

But what I'm saying is that it is incredibly irresponsible to play Russian roulette with the country's economic future


Agreed. Obama's only proposal so far was his budget that would add $10 Trillion to the debt over the next decade. That would be disastrous for the country.

Good thing he couldn't get a single vote from ANYONE on that turd.
Obama really inherited a mess for his second term.

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#25 IGotWorms

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:28 PM

Agreed. Obama's only proposal so far was his budget that would add $10 Trillion to the debt over the next decade. That would be disastrous for the country.

Good thing he couldn't get a single vote from ANYONE on that turd.


I'll agree with you on that, his budget proposal was irresponsible and out of tune with the country's deficit problem. You'll get no argument from me that the United States needs to balance the budget and start reducing the deficit within the next 10 years. The question is how to go about doing that. I think the Republicans' choice of holding the country hostage is NOT the best way.

#26 Strike

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:28 PM

Is it not true that a substantial number of House Republicans have stated they are against raising the debt ceiling, period, no matter what the circumstances are or what the Obama Administration offers in return?

And isn't it true that McConnell said they couldn't work with Obama and were done doing anything until his term was up?

Republicans don't want to govern. They want to destroy Obama's presidency and they'll take the rest of the country with them if they have to.


Let me just ask you one question:

Do you really believe the monthly issuance of life-supporting funds for wounded veterans, disabled children, and countless elderly couples living on barely $2,000 a month are at risk?
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#27 Strike

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:29 PM

The numbers parameter are out there and not contested by those in negotiations. So something is being cut. Since the Dem's base constituency consists of three groups: "spend money on us", "spend money on us", and "spend money on us" all he can do is p*ss off his own people.

Telling any one of them that they're on the chopping block before a deal is sealed won't go over too well. Special interests will have time to muster their forces and prssure their reps... better to drop a surprise p*ss on them all at one time and due to time constraints rush the vote before they can react.


You didn't answer my question.
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#28 IGotWorms

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:31 PM

Let me just ask you one question:

Do you really believe the monthly issuance of life-supporting funds for wounded veterans, disabled children, and countless elderly couples living on barely $2,000 a month are at risk?


Yes, I do believe they are at risk. Some of what the Democrats have said is certainly political posturing, but at the same time pretty much every credible economist on the planet agrees that not raising the debt ceiling would likely have disastrous and unpredictable economic effects. We don't know exactly what the fallout will be, but I certainly think it could go so far as to jeopardize the economic health of the country in general.

#29 MDC

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:40 PM

The Republican party is trying to tank the economy to improve their chances in 2012. These are the same major players who raised the debt ceiling 7 times under Bush, rang up $6 trillion in debt and foisted two lost wars, Medicare Rx and a 1.5 trillion annual deficit onto Obama. The sudden concern over spending is entirely partisan. Sane Republicans like me are ashamed. :thumbsdown:
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#30 Recliner Pilot

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:50 PM

The Republican party is trying to tank the economy to improve their chances in 2012. These are the same major players who raised the debt ceiling 7 times under Bush, rang up $6 trillion in debt and foisted two lost wars, Medicare Rx and a 1.5 trillion annual deficit onto Obama. The sudden concern over spending is entirely partisan. :thumbsdown:



Yeah, trying to get a handle on out of control spending is nuts. They should just rubber stamp the only proposal Obama has presented...........ya know, the one that increases spending, adds $10 Trillion to the debt over the next decade (on top of the $5 Trillion Obama has already added to the debt in his first 2-1/2 years), and didn't get a single vote in the Senate.
Obama really inherited a mess for his second term.

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#31 titans&bucs&bearsohmy!

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:57 PM

The Republican party is trying to tank the economy to improve their chances in 2012. These are the same major players who raised the debt ceiling 7 times under Bush, rang up $6 trillion in debt and foisted two lost wars, Medicare Rx and a 1.5 trillion annual deficit onto Obama. The sudden concern over spending is entirely partisan. Sane Republicans like me are ashamed. :thumbsdown:


Exactly. Hopefully this will damage them enough to get them thrown out next november.
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#32 MDC

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:17 PM

Yeah, trying to get a handle on out of control spending is nuts.

Trying to get a handle on spending is great, but the GOP ha utterly failed to accept 2 premises:

1. We are not going to balance the budget until the economy turns, because we're losing about a trillion annually in revenues due to un- or under-employment, and huge cuts and/or massive tax increases right now would have horrible consequences in this economy.

2. Spending cuts without any tax hike concessions are immoral and politically not feasible. It's just not going to happen, so insisting that the other side makes all the concessions isn't governing, it's grandstanding.

This is leaving aside the fact that anyone old enough to vote remembers the GOP signing off on raising the debt ceiling 7 times while they rang up $6 trillion in debt, before handing the new guy an unfunded entitlement (Medicate Rx) that costs more than Obamacare, two failed nation-building exercises, and the deepest recession in decades.

Moderate Republicans like me know Saint Ronald McReagan is rolling over in his grave. Your actions are treason and you should be ashamed. :nono:
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#33 Recliner Pilot

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:22 PM

before handing the new guy an unfunded entitlement (Medicate Rx) that costs more than Obamacare,


Link?
Obama really inherited a mess for his second term.

I'm simply saying that the argument of "It's in the constitution, thus that right must be defended" is silly.---cbfalcon

#34 MDC

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:30 PM

Link?


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/20/us/politics/20spend.html?hp

Paragraph 5-6.

Look for the nugget where the CBO estimates that Medicare Rx will cost mote than Obamacare, TARP, and the stimulus combined. :shocking:
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#35 Recliner Pilot

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:35 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/20/us/politics/20spend.html?hp

Paragraph 5-6.

Look for the nugget where the CBO estimates that Medicare Rx will cost mote than Obamacare, TARP, and the stimulus combined. :shocking:


THe NYTs makes that claim, but their link to the CBO has nothing on it that backs up that claim.

Please try again. :banana: :banana: :banana:
Obama really inherited a mess for his second term.

I'm simply saying that the argument of "It's in the constitution, thus that right must be defended" is silly.---cbfalcon

#36 MDC

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:49 PM

THe NYTs makes that claim, but their link to the CBO has nothing on it that backs up that claim.


They just made it up - gotcha. :lol:

Pull your tongue out of Cheney's fat arse, libturd. :thumbsdown:
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#37 Recliner Pilot

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:53 PM

They just made it up


Apparently. Or you would have something else to back up your claim. :dunno:
Obama really inherited a mess for his second term.

I'm simply saying that the argument of "It's in the constitution, thus that right must be defended" is silly.---cbfalcon

#38 MDC

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:55 PM

Apparently.


The whole world is biased against your hero the Great Decider. :banana: :banana: :lol:

Except Arabs. They love him. :pointstosky:
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#39 Recliner Pilot

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 07:28 PM

The whole world is biased against your hero the Great Decider. :banana: :banana: :lol:

Except Arabs. They love him. :pointstosky:



Still waiting for the link that backs up your claim. :dunno:
Obama really inherited a mess for his second term.

I'm simply saying that the argument of "It's in the constitution, thus that right must be defended" is silly.---cbfalcon

#40 MDC

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 07:33 PM

Still waiting for the link that backs up your claim. :dunno:


I gave it to you, Habib. I can't help it is you'd rather deny reality than admit that Bush spent like a drunken sailor with a stolen credit card. Even a Republican like me can see that. :lol:
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