87 replies to this topic

[Phurfur]

Not sure where you're coming from with that (could see someone throwing it out for a limited creation thought)

I was backing up your statement with a quote from the Bible.

[naomi]

I was backing up your statement with a quote from the Bible.

Ah

Over-thinking for the fail

[gocolts]

Because Jesus was sent to EARTH to die for OUR sins. It's the point of the entire f'ing bible Gary. Jesus Christ man.

Dude, there are other religions here on Earth, so it is not some big stretch to think there might be other religions on distance planets if there is alien life out there.

[The Pope]

Too broad of a question, wouldn't narrow it down at all, still could be Aliens or Catholic Priests.

Aliens don't know anything about anal probes. They use a machine for God's sake.

[mobb_deep]

Dude, there are other religions here on Earth, so it is not some big stretch to think there might be other religions on distance planets if there is alien life out there.

No crap man. I'm sure aliens are just as curious about their origin as humans. I was just commenting on "Religion has always been earth centric", in the context of the discussion. I guess the OP could have been more specific like "Bible flavor God based religions (aka Christian, Judaism, Muslim, etc) have always been earth centric".

Even taking the quote from Phurfur Gen 1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Then it continues further "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them".

It doesn't say god created Earth, Endor, Melmac, etc. etc. God could give a rats about Alf or any other awesome TV shows and movies from the 80's. He only cared about Michael Landon and Highway to Heaven.

[Me_2006]

No crap man. I'm sure aliens are just as curious about their origin as humans. I was just commenting on "Religion has always been earth centric", in the context of the discussion. I guess the OP could have been more specific like "Bible flavor God based religions (aka Christian, Judaism, Muslim, etc) have always been earth centric".

Even taking the quote from Phurfur Gen 1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Then it continues further "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them".

It doesn't say god created Earth, Endor, Melmac, etc. etc. God could give a rats about Alf or any other awesome TV shows and movies from the 80's. He only cared about Michael Landon and Highway to Heaven.

It says He created the Heavens, and that MAN was in His image. If Aliens aren't man/men/women/transexuals, then I don't think there's necessarily anything there. It doesn't tell us what aliens were created to look like, if they even exist or whatever.


Maybe the universe is full of aliens that are actually just angels. That would logically follow. None of us are ever going to figure that out or get anywhere with it, I'm just saying it wouldn't necessarily be an inconsistency if it were the case.

[jerryskids]

It says He created the Heavens, and that MAN was in His image. If Aliens aren't man/men/women/transexuals, then I don't think there's necessarily anything there. It doesn't tell us what aliens were created to look like, if they even exist or whatever.

This is my thinking. How does the absence of mention of life on other planets mean that the Bible is wrong? The Bible isn't supposed to be a log of everything God ever did, is it? That would be a long book.

[Mrsteak21]

I believe that aliens are demons plain and simple. Aliens are not spoken about in the bible, but demons are. If demons are a creation by Satan (or are fallen angels) their sole purpose is to deceive man away from Jesus Christ.

My humble opinion is that some day in the future aliens will "show" themselves to the govts of the earth and will bring with them great powers and gifts. Maybe they will rid the earth of pollution or cure cancer, etc and people will believe the lies and believe that these aliens created man. The rug will be pulled out from under the alien believers and the 7 year tribulation will begin (after the rapture). The antichrist will rule the earth (i am guessing it will be a "choosen" man by the aliens or an alien leader himself), after 7 years Jesus will return and it will be game on.

[Phurfur]

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[Savage Beast]

How I understand scripture is that there's more than one name/descriptor the real being is referred to with. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44.

When Christ said "Get behind me Satan" to Peter, from the context you can tell it was the spirit behind where Peter was coming from that Christ was calling out. There I wouldn't agree Peter was being called a fallen angel either. The devil is an adversary so that word works. Peter's motivation in wanting to prevent Christ's death (though you can sympathize with him) was adversarial to Christ's purpose. Also relevant there. That doesn't establish that the being is mythological, but I assume you gather that because of an overarching doctrinal perception you have.

Many "satans", "devils", "demons", and "angels", exist. But they are all either Earth men, or false mythological gods that do not exist, not the mythological angels that rebelled against the living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that you can read about in the book of Enoch.

Again, I'll use the Hebrew to prove my point.

There are only 2 Hebrew words used for demons/devils in the Bible. שָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) and שֵׁד (shed).

The main meaning of שָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) is goat. It is used 52 times in the Bible for goat, 2 times for hairy, 2 times for devil/demon, and 2 times for satyr. Both times is is used for devils/demons is when it is used for the Idolatry of false gods. And false gods do not exist. They are mythology.

Lev 17:6And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

7And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devilsשָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) , after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

2 Ch 11:14For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:

15And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devilsשָׂעִיר(sa`iyr), and for the calves which he had made.

These devils/demonsare not fallen angels, but Idols and false gods. They do not exist. They are graven images that men conjured up with their own imaginations.

The meaning of שֵׁד (shed) is devils/demon. It is only used 2 times in the Bible, both times for devils/demons. Again, it is not used for fallen angels, but rather Idols and false gods.

Deu 32:15But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17They sacrificed unto devilsשֵׁד (shed), not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Psalm 106:34They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them:

35But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.

36And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.

37Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devilsשֵׁד (shed),

38And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

No fallen angels here, just Idols and false gods which do not exist according to the Bible. They are mythology. There is only ONE God according to scripture.

The 4 Greek words for devils/demons used in the N.T. scriptures are διάβολος(diabolos = slanderer), δαιμονίζομαι(daimonizomai = have devils), and δαιμόνιον(daimonion = false diety) and δαίμων(daimōn = inferior diety). Again, these Greek words don't mean fallen angel. They are the same as the Hebrew words, they are slanderers, false gods and idols.

Now why is the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) not used even ONE TIME by Moses in the Torah? How could Moses possible be ignorant of this supposed fallen angel named Lucifer/Satan? Moses wrote 5 books in the Old Testament. 14 of the 26 times the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) is used in the Hebrew scriptures, can be found in the book of Job. And let's not forget that if the English translators would actually "translate" the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan), then the word "adversary" would appear every time in the English Bibles. Young's Literal English Bible translation for example, translates every Hebrew word, so you never see the untranslated Hebrew word satan in the text, much less capitalizing it like it's the name of some mythological fallen angel. And of course, even the English translators properly translate the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan)several times in most English versions of the Bible.

1 Sam 29:4And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversaryשָׂטָן(satan) to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?

1 Kings 11:13Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.

14And the LORD stirred up an adversaryשָׂטָן(satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.

Now I know what some will say. The reason Moses did not use the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) even one time in the Torah, was because he used the word "serpent" for the fallen angel Satan instead. Really????????? Let's look at this Hebrew word, shall we?

נָחָשׁ(nachash = serpent, snake, dragon constellation in the northern sky, enchantment, and divine signs). Now who could this "serpent" be? Who does Moses name as being in the Garden in Genesis? Only 2 are named, man and woman, there is no 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc...... party in the garden according to Moses in Genesis. Only 2 beings. So one of these 2 has to be the "serpent". So which one is it, man or woman? Who did God tell not to eat of the fruit first, man or woman? It was the man Adam(Gen 2:16-17) . So the man Adam is the serpent. And this man's seed murdered the woman's seed. Cain is Adam's seed(spiritually), and Able and Seth are the woman's seed(spiritually) Eve is the mother of all the living(spiritually)Gen 32:20, and Adam is the father of all the dead(spiritually)1 Cor 15:21-22. Christ did not come from Cain's seed, but Seth's seed. Cain the farmer(just like his father Adam)was a murderer, and Seth was the shepherd seed of the woman God replaced the shepherd Cain murdered his brother Abel(Eve's seed) with(Gen 4:25). And Christ came from the woman's seed, not the man's seed. Christ is the good shepherd like Abel and Seth, not the murderous dirt farmer from the seed of the murderer Cain. Luke chapter 3 puts Christ in Seth's blood line, not Cain's blood line.

Now lets get to the Hebrew word for angel which is מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak). Now before I tell you the meaning of this word, let's address the English word "angel". The English word "ange" comes from the Latin word "angelus" which comes from the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso). Again, the English Bible translators leave the Hebrew and Greek words untranslated on purpose, and write the English word "angel" in place of the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) and the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso). Both the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) and the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso)mean the same thing, "messenger". If the English translators would not leave these 2 words untranslated, then the text would always read "messenger" and not "angel". Now the English Bible translators properly translate the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)at least 100 times in the Bible. But leave it untranslated over 100 times as well.

Now how do I know these angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) are men, and not mythological heavenly creatures with wings and halos? The scriptures, that's how. The angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)that come to Sodom are called "men".

Gen 19:1And there came two angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Are these Heavenly creatures with wings and halos? Now look at what the English Bible translators do here. They leave the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)untranslated on purpose the first time, while properly translating it the second. Wonder why?

Gen 32:1And Jacob went on his way, and the angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) of God met him.

2And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.

3And Jacob sent messengersמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.

4And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:

Angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) are men, and yet the English Bible translators want you to believe otherwise in many cases. They want you to believe in mythological demi-gods with wings on their backs, flying around in Heaven, or roasting in Hell with their master Lucifer. But a quick glance at the ancient Biblical Hebrew and Greek texts show otherwise.

[Chronic Husker]

I believe that aliens are demons plain and simple. Aliens are not spoken about in the bible, but demons are. If demons are a creation by Satan (or are fallen angels) their sole purpose is to deceive man away from Jesus Christ.

My humble opinion is that some day in the future aliens will "show" themselves to the govts of the earth and will bring with them great powers and gifts. Maybe they will rid the earth of pollution or cure cancer, etc and people will believe the lies and believe that these aliens created man. The rug will be pulled out from under the alien believers and the 7 year tribulation will begin (after the rapture). The antichrist will rule the earth (i am guessing it will be a "choosen" man by the aliens or an alien leader himself), after 7 years Jesus will return and it will be game on.

This makes Little Rusty's theories sound plausible by comparison.

[nikki2200]

Where is Little Rusty? I was actually looking forward to his story for once ever.

[penultimatestraw]

"I am that I am."

If you can conceive of that, whether you believe it or not, Logic doesn't mean you limit what you can conceptually recognize to the laws the natural world is ruled by. If you believe something you take on faith, yes- it doesn't happen from logical reasoning. But there's a difference between that and believing something that conflicts with your logical reasoning.

Zealot: God created everything and has been around forever.

Heathen: Where's the proof?

Zealot: Just look around you - you'll never understand if you don't have faith.

Heathen: What about non-mythical phenomena we've already explained scientifically?

Zealot: Where's your proof of the things we can't explain?

Heathen: You have to have faith that science will someday find an explanation. At least we have a track record of providing some of the answers.

Zealot: Enjoy the lake of fire.

Etc. etc.

As expected, because aliens aren't explicitly mentioned in the Bible, people fill in the gaps with their own assumptions. These adhere to their initial bias rather than questioning the flawed premise of God and a human-centric universe. Every challenge to man's importance, implicitly including their God, is accommodated by the malleability of religious interpretation. It happened when we discovered the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe, when it was a lot older than Biblical accounts, that we are descended from lower organisms, etc. And it will happen if/when we discover sentient alien life.

[Me_2006]

Did Savage Beast just black out and start speaking in tongues or what the hell happened up there? That's impressive.

[Savage Beast]

Did Savage Beast just black out and start speaking in tongues or what the hell happened up there? That's impressive.

One of my main hobbies besides Bible thumping the heathens here at this forearm is studying the Bible in the original manuscript languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

I joke around a lot about people burning in the Lake Of Fire, even though in reality the Lake Of Fire is simply a metaphor for the judgment of God. There is no "literal" Lake Of Fire, it's simply a metaphor. God is described all throughout the Bible as a "consuming fire"(Deu 4:24 and Heb 12:29 for example), but God is not "literal" fire. A "consuming fire" is what God "IS LIKE", not what he "LOOKS LIKE". Same with Hell. Christ tells his disciples what Hell "IS LIKE" in Mark 9 for example when Christ refers to the sulfur pits in the Valley of Hinnom where the people living in Jerusalem dumped and burned their trash. Christ says that Hell is like this. In other words, it's a place that nobody wants to be.

You have a Bible question, then ask me. I'll not only use scripture to answer it, but I'll also use the Hebrew and Greek manuscript languages where necessary to answer it correctly. I won't mix in the ancient Hebraic and Roman Catholic mythology that is all throughout modern Christianity either, like fallen angels and talking snakes for example.

[naomi]

Many "satans", "devils", "demons", and "angels", exist. But they are all either Earth men, or false mythological gods that do not exist, not the mythological angels that rebelled against the living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that you can read about in the book of Enoch.

Again, I'll use the Hebrew to prove my point.

There are only 2 Hebrew words used for demons/devils in the Bible. שָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) and שֵׁד (shed).

The main meaning of שָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) is goat. It is used 52 times in the Bible for goat, 2 times for hairy, 2 times for devil/demon, and 2 times for satyr. Both times is is used for devils/demons is when it is used for the Idolatry of false gods. And false gods do not exist. They are mythology.

Lev 17:6And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

7And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devilsשָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) , after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

2 Ch 11:14For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:

15And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devilsשָׂעִיר(sa`iyr), and for the calves which he had made.

These devils/demonsare not fallen angels, but Idols and false gods. They do not exist. They are graven images that men conjured up with their own imaginations.

The meaning of שֵׁד (shed) is devils/demon. It is only used 2 times in the Bible, both times for devils/demons. Again, it is not used for fallen angels, but rather Idols and false gods.

Deu 32:15But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17They sacrificed unto devilsשֵׁד (shed), not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Psalm 106:34They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them:

35But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.

36And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.

37Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devilsשֵׁד (shed),

38And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

No fallen angels here, just Idols and false gods which do not exist according to the Bible. They are mythology. There is only ONE God according to scripture.

The 4 Greek words for devils/demons used in the N.T. scriptures are διάβολος(diabolos = slanderer), δαιμονίζομαι(daimonizomai = have devils), and δαιμόνιον(daimonion = false diety) and δαίμων(daimōn = inferior diety). Again, these Greek words don't mean fallen angel. They are the same as the Hebrew words, they are slanderers, false gods and idols.

Now why is the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) not used even ONE TIME by Moses in the Torah? How could Moses possible be ignorant of this supposed fallen angel named Lucifer/Satan? Moses wrote 5 books in the Old Testament. 14 of the 26 times the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) is used in the Hebrew scriptures, can be found in the book of Job. And let's not forget that if the English translators would actually "translate" the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan), then the word "adversary" would appear every time in the English Bibles. Young's Literal English Bible translation for example, translates every Hebrew word, so you never see the untranslated Hebrew word satan in the text, much less capitalizing it like it's the name of some mythological fallen angel. And of course, even the English translators properly translate the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan)several times in most English versions of the Bible.

1 Sam 29:4And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversaryשָׂטָן(satan) to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?

1 Kings 11:13Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.

14And the LORD stirred up an adversaryשָׂטָן(satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.

Now I know what some will say. The reason Moses did not use the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) even one time in the Torah, was because he used the word "serpent" for the fallen angel Satan instead. Really????????? Let's look at this Hebrew word, shall we?

נָחָשׁ(nachash = serpent, snake, dragon constellation in the northern sky, enchantment, and divine signs). Now who could this "serpent" be? Who does Moses name as being in the Garden in Genesis? Only 2 are named, man and woman, there is no 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc...... party in the garden according to Moses in Genesis. Only 2 beings. So one of these 2 has to be the "serpent". So which one is it, man or woman? Who did God tell not to eat of the fruit first, man or woman? It was the man Adam(Gen 2:16-17) . So the man Adam is the serpent. And this man's seed murdered the woman's seed. Cain is Adam's seed(spiritually), and Able and Seth are the woman's seed(spiritually) Eve is the mother of all the living(spiritually)Gen 32:20, and Adam is the father of all the dead(spiritually)1 Cor 15:21-22. Christ did not come from Cain's seed, but Seth's seed. Cain the farmer(just like his father Adam)was a murderer, and Seth was the shepherd seed of the woman God replaced the shepherd Cain murdered his brother Abel(Eve's seed) with(Gen 4:25). And Christ came from the woman's seed, not the man's seed. Christ is the good shepherd like Abel and Seth, not the murderous dirt farmer from the seed of the murderer Cain. Luke chapter 3 puts Christ in Seth's blood line, not Cain's blood line.

Now lets get to the Hebrew word for angel which is מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak). Now before I tell you the meaning of this word, let's address the English word "angel". The English word "ange" comes from the Latin word "angelus" which comes from the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso). Again, the English Bible translators leave the Hebrew and Greek words untranslated on purpose, and write the English word "angel" in place of the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) and the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso). Both the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) and the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso)mean the same thing, "messenger". If the English translators would not leave these 2 words untranslated, then the text would always read "messenger" and not "angel". Now the English Bible translators properly translate the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)at least 100 times in the Bible. But leave it untranslated over 100 times as well.

Now how do I know these angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) are men, and not mythological heavenly creatures with wings and halos? The scriptures, that's how. The angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)that come to Sodom are called "men".

Gen 19:1And there came two angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Are these Heavenly creatures with wings and halos? Now look at what the English Bible translators do here. They leave the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)untranslated on purpose the first time, while properly translating it the second. Wonder why?

Gen 32:1And Jacob went on his way, and the angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) of God met him.

2And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.

3And Jacob sent messengersמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.

4And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:

Angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) are men, and yet the English Bible translators want you to believe otherwise in many cases. They want you to believe in mythological demi-gods with wings on their backs, flying around in Heaven, or roasting in Hell with their master Lucifer. But a quick glance at the ancient Biblical Hebrew and Greek texts show otherwise.

Hmmm.

The way you arrive at some of your conclusions doesn't hem it up for me. I might agree with point A, but not how you attach it to B. I'll have to read your post slowly and patiently again though. It reads like you're excited to throw out the Hebrew and are appealing to possessing knowledge of the words themselves as validation of the actual substance of what you're saying. I could be wrong though (which is why I want to read it again really patiently). I know (second-hand) that more than cursory knowledge of Greek and Hebrew alone doesn't lend your general take.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of Mark 5?

And Ephesians 6:12

[mobb_deep]

One of my main hobbies besides Bible thumping the heathens here at this forearm is studying the Bible in the original manuscript languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

I joke around a lot about people burning in the Lake Of Fire, even though in reality the Lake Of Fire is simply a metaphor for the judgment of God. There is no "literal" Lake Of Fire, it's simply a metaphor. God is described all throughout the Bible as a "consuming fire"(Deu 4:24 and Heb 12:29 for example), but God is not "literal" fire. A "consuming fire" is what God "IS LIKE", not what he "LOOKS LIKE". Same with Hell. Christ tells his disciples what Hell "IS LIKE" in Mark 9 for example when Christ refers to the sulfur pits in the Valley of Hinnom where the people living in Jerusalem dumped and burned their trash. Christ says that Hell is like this. In other words, it's a place that nobody wants to be.

You have a Bible question, then ask me. I'll not only use scripture to answer it, but I'll also use the Hebrew and Greek manuscript languages where necessary to answer it correctly. I won't mix in the ancient Hebraic and Roman Catholic mythology that is all throughout modern Christianity either, like fallen angels and talking snakes for example.

So, basically there's no hell or satan? That's great news. Thanks!

[The Next Generation]

I believe that aliens are demons plain and simple. Aliens are not spoken about in the bible, but demons are. If demons are a creation by Satan (or are fallen angels) their sole purpose is to deceive man away from Jesus Christ.

My humble opinion is that some day in the future aliens will "show" themselves to the govts of the earth and will bring with them great powers and gifts. Maybe they will rid the earth of pollution or cure cancer, etc and people will believe the lies and believe that these aliens created man. The rug will be pulled out from under the alien believers and the 7 year tribulation will begin (after the rapture). The antichrist will rule the earth (i am guessing it will be a "choosen" man by the aliens or an alien leader himself), after 7 years Jesus will return and it will be game on.

Yeah, I saw "V" too. That demon leader was da bomb!

[Savage Beast]

So, basically there's no hell or satan? That's great news. Thanks!

There is not a fallen angel named Satan, but there is a Hell. But Hell is separation from God, not a smoldering pit of fire. The smoldering fire pit of sulfur where worms and maggots are feeding on dead animals is simply a symbol for what it's like to be separated from God for all of eternity, it's Hell so to speak. Eternal separation from God something nobody wants to be involved with after they die. The Greek word for Hell is γέεννα(geenna), Gehenna in the English. Gehenna was the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

[Chronic Husker]

Gehenna was the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

I liked this story the first time I heard it when it was about Mrs. O'Leary's cow and the Cubs.

[Savage Beast]

Hmmm.
Out of curiosity, what do you think of Mark 5?

And Ephesians 6:12

The Unclean Spirits in Mark 5 are also called demonsδαίμων(daimōn)in Mark 5:12 which means inferior deity. In other words, a mythological creature. There are no such thing as demigods or inferior deities like the ancient Persians and Greeks had. There is only ONE God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The first century Jews(including the disciples) believed in mythological spirits that made people crazy and sick, but this is because they didn't have modern medical knowledge. They were not lying, because they lived in the 1st century, not the 21st century. They could not do a brain scan on a person who had a neurological disorder like autism, violent tendencies like self mutilation(guy in Mark 5) and cutting, bipolar disorder, etc....... so they blamed these neurological disorders on ἀκάθαρτος(akathartos = unclean in thought and life and ceremonially) πνεῦμα(pneuma = movement of air, wind, breath, spirit, soul).

In Ephesians 6, the devil named here are men(masters according to the flesh(or Jewish political/religious leaders) in Eph 6:5) , not a mythological fallen angel named Lucifer. The Greek word used for devil in Eph 6:11 is διάβολος(diabolos) which means false accuser or slander. Who was the false accuser of Christ? A fallen angel or a man? It was the chief priest Caiaphas(Read Matt chapter 26 to get the story) who was the false accuser(devil), not some mythological fallen angel called Satan/Lucifer. So what are the powers in Ephesians 6 then? Men with political and religious power, or fallen angels? Lets look at the Greek again, but before we do this, we need to see what the phrase "flesh and blood" means. And it doesn't mean a human being's literal skin and blood at all. This phrase "flesh and blood" is used 5 times in the N.T. And it is a phrase that is a metaphor for a religious Jew. The religious Jew was the enemy of Christ, and they chanted before the Roman governor Pilot to free the murderer Barabas and to crucify Christ. This is why Christ tells Peter that "flesh and blood"(religious Jews) did not reveal the Christ to Peter, but rather God in Heaven did(Matt 16).

So who are the powers and principalities? the common man religious Jewsflesh and blood), or the religious Jewish leaders? Well the common man had no power, but the religious leaders were also the political leaders, and they had power. They were the rulers of darkness mentioned, and they persecuted the 1st century Jewish Christians even to the point of death. Most of the Jewish Christians fled Jerusalem and went to Asia(You can read about these Jewish Christians who fled to Asia in Acts 19, and the book Revelation addressed to the 7 Jewish Christian churches in Asia).

Now to the Greek. ἀρχή(archē = principalities)which means chief leader, first leader, and magistracy. ἐξουσία(exousia = powers) which means authority, jurisdiction, and ruler. Now the Greek word for rulers of the darkness of this age used here is a combination of 2 Greek words, and this is the only time this word κοσμοκράτωρ(kosmokratōr) is used in the entire Bible. The 2 Greek words combined here are κόσμος(kosmos= universe, order, and government) and κρατέω(krateō = have power, hold, and take). As you can see by the Greek, these are Human rulers, not fallen angels of any kind.

[mobb_deep]

There is not a fallen angel named Satan, but there is a Hell. But Hell is separation from God, not a smoldering pit of fire. The smoldering fire pit of sulfur where worms and maggots are feeding on dead animals is simply a symbol for what it's like to be separated from God for all of eternity, it's Hell so to speak. Eternal separation from God something nobody wants to be involved with after they die. The Greek word for Hell is γέεννα(geenna), Gehenna in the English. Gehenna was the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

So, hell is sort of like being on earth, but with no religion? That doesn't sound too bad.

[Savage Beast]

So, hell is sort of like being on earth, but with no religion? That doesn't sound too bad.

But being alive here on the planet Earth does not separate anybody from God's glory and creation. You may not believe in God, but you still get to enjoy the goodness of all of his creation as long as you draw breath. But when you die, without being born from God(spiritually) through the messiah Christ(the only way to be born of God), you are eternally separated from all of God's glory and creation forever with the total knowledge of how you rejected the truth of God. This kind of eternal torment is far worse then anything physical, because it is an eternal torment on the mind/soul. The body dies, but the mind/spirit is eternal. But if you are born of God through his only begotten son the Christ, then you are not only eternally spiritually alive when you die, but this mind/soul eternal life is also a reality while your physical body still draws breath as well. Eternal life begins upon conversion to the messiah Christ, and eternal death is the same. You are a walking dead man(spiritually)as long as you reject the Christ, even if you think you have it all(money, power, health, women, etc..). You can live it up here on Earth while you still draw breath, but you can't take it with you, and there is no peace of mind/soul to be found in money and power. This is why the both the rich and famous kill themselves all the time. They have no peace of mind/soul, because they are walking dead men already.

[mobb_deep]

But being alive here on the planet Earth does not separate anybody from God's glory and creation. You may not believe in God, but you still get to enjoy the goodness of all of his creation as long as you draw breath. But when you die, without being born from God(spiritually) through the messiah Christ(the only way to be born of God), you are eternally separated from all of God's glory and creation forever with the total knowledge of how you rejected the truth of God. This kind of eternal torment is far worse then anything physical, because it is an eternal torment on the mind/soul. The body dies, but the mind/spirit is eternal. But if you are born of God through his only begotten son the Christ, then you are not only eternally spiritually alive when you die, but this mind/soul eternal life is also a reality while your physical body still draws breath as well. Eternal life begins upon conversion to the messiah Christ, and eternal death is the same. You are a walking dead man(spiritually)as long as you reject the Christ, even if you think you have it all(money, power, health, women, etc..). You can live it up here on Earth while you still draw breath, but you can't take it with you, and there is no peace of mind/soul to be found in money and power. This is why the both the rich and famous kill themselves all the time. They have no peace of mind/soul, because they are walking dead men already.

Are you a physical embodiment of something in heaven, or just in some sort of dream state? For instance, could I eat pizza in heaven, but not hell? Or is it more like heaven has papa johns and hell has only mama celeste and totinos?

By the way, I wouldn't say "I don't believe in god". I just don't put much thought into it. I don't think you're wacko or anything.

[penultimatestraw]

But being alive here on the planet Earth does not separate anybody from God's glory and creation. You may not believe in God, but you still get to enjoy the goodness of all of his creation as long as you draw breath. But when you die, without being born from God(spiritually) through the messiah Christ(the only way to be born of God), you are eternally separated from all of God's glory and creation forever with the total knowledge of how you rejected the truth of God. This kind of eternal torment is far worse then anything physical, because it is an eternal torment on the mind/soul. The body dies, but the mind/spirit is eternal. But if you are born of God through his only begotten son the Christ, then you are not only eternally spiritually alive when you die, but this mind/soul eternal life is also a reality while your physical body still draws breath as well. Eternal life begins upon conversion to the messiah Christ, and eternal death is the same. You are a walking dead man(spiritually)as long as you reject the Christ, even if you think you have it all(money, power, health, women, etc..). You can live it up here on Earth while you still draw breath, but you can't take it with you, and there is no peace of mind/soul to be found in money and power. This is why the both the rich and famous kill themselves all the time. They have no peace of mind/soul, because they are walking dead men already.

Do Christians ever kill themselves?

[Savage Beast]

Are you a physical embodiment of something in heaven, or just in some sort of dream state? For instance, could I eat pizza in heaven, but not hell? Or is it more like heaven has papa johns and hell has only mama celeste and totinos?

The Bible does not give details on what you can or cannot do in Heaven. Same applies to Hell. I have heard many Christians(including preachers) speculate on what people will be able to do in Heaven like fly, eat, walk through walls, telepathy, instant teleportation with a thought, etc.... but they did not get this from the Bible, they are just speculating on what it might be like in Heaven. Sad thing is, that most Christians I know think they will be some kind of supernatural superman character in Heaven, being able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, faster then a speeding bullet, etc..... They live in make-believe land, and this can be found nowhere in the Bible.

The Mind/soul is non corporeal, so it does not consist of mass and energy. This is why when a scan or an x-ray is done on the human body, the mind/soul does not show up. The mind/soul "transcends" the known laws of physics, hence the non-corporeal part. But we do know the mind/soul exists. If you were to clone yourself, you would still be 2 different people. You may look the same, and have the same DNA, but the 2 of you would have a different mind/soul, and you would think and behave in many different ways. What makes you, you, is your mind/soul, which is why even if you have an identical twin brother, you are not the same person at all. You may look identical, but what you look like does not make you a person. Your mind/soul is what makes you a person, and a one-of-a-kind person as well.

[Savage Beast]

Do Christians ever kill themselves?

Murder is strictly forbidden in the scriptures(including self murder), but I can't say a Christian has never committed suicide. We know for a fact that neurological disorders like Bibpolar disorder(manic depression)can cause people to have suicidal thoughts, and I would wager that there have been Christians throughout history with this particular neurological disorder for example. And possibly some of them have committed suicide along the way. But if they were born of God through the messiah Christ, then they went immediately into the presence of God when they died, even if they died at their own hands.

[penultimatestraw]

Murder is strictly forbidden in the scriptures(including self murder), but I can't say a Christian has never committed suicide. We know for a fact that neurological disorders like Bibpolar disorder(manic depression)can cause people to have suicidal thoughts, and I would wager that there have been Christians throughout history with this particular neurological disorder for example. And possibly some of them have committed suicide along the way. But if they were born of God through the messiah Christ, then they went immediately into the presence of God when they died, even if they died at their own hands.

Yeah and some of the other psychiatric disorders make people believe in things that don't exist, including supernatural powers.

If heaven is so wonderful and there is no consequence of suicide amongst believers, why shouldn't all Christians just punch their ticket early? It worked out fine in Jonestown.

[Savage Beast]

Yeah and some of the other psychiatric disorders make people believe in things that don't exist, including supernatural powers.

If heaven is so wonderful and there is no consequence of suicide amongst believers, why shouldn't all Christians just punch their ticket early? It worked out fine in Jonestown.

No consequences? A Christian can't expand the kingdom of God(through evangelism) if they are dead. And it is God's prerogative to decide when you will die, not yourself, or another man through murder. The apostle Paul himself struggled with this very thing. He knew that if he were dead, he would be with his God in eternity, but he also knew that he must live on, and fight the good fight, to expand the kingdom of God throughout the 1st century Roman empire and to encourage his fellow Christian brothers to do the same. And he could not evangelize the Roman world if he were dead because he decided to commit suicide to be with the Lord sooner rather then later.

Let's look at Paul's letter to the Philippians for example.

Phil 1:12 But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, 13 so that it has become evident to the whole palace guard, and to all the rest, that my chains are in Christ; 14 and most of the brethren in the Lord, having become confident by my chains, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

So as you can see, Paul said himself he would be better off departed from this Earth, and with Christ, but he must remain in the flesh until his time has come. And Paul knew that it was not himself who decided when he would die, but is was God who decided. So Paul did not take his own life to get to Heaven quicker. He knew this was wrong.

[penultimatestraw]

No consequences? A Christian can't expand the kingdom of God(through evangelism) if they are dead. And it is God who decides when you will die, not yourself, or another man. The apostle Paul himself struggled with this very thing. He knew that if he were dead, he would be with his God in eternity, but he also knew that he must live on, and fight the good fight, to expand the kingdom of God throughout the 1st century Roman empire and to encourage his fellow Christian brothers to do the same. And he could not evangelize the Roman world if he were dead because he decided to commit suicide to be with the Lord sooner rather then later.

Let's look at Paul's letter to the Philippians for example.

Phil 1:12 But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, 13 so that it has become evident to the whole palace guard, and to all the rest, that my chains are in Christ; 14 and most of the brethren in the Lord, having become confident by my chains, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

So as you can see, Paul said himself he would be better off departed from this Earth, and with Christ, but he must remain in the flesh until his time has come. And Paul knew that it was not himself who decided when he would die, but is was God who decided. So Paul did not take his own life to get to Heaven quicker. He knew this was wrong.

Interesting. How much of your time do you devote to studying scripture or other religious practices? I'd like to hear from Naomi as well.

[Savage Beast]

Interesting. How much of your time do you devote to studying scripture or other religious practices? I'd like to hear from Naomi as well.

I used to go to Church every Sunday up until about 8 years ago, but as I started studying the Bible for myself
, in the original manuscript languages, I got jaded about what I was being taught in Church. These guys preach the gospel of Christ, but after this, they don't know their elbows from their @sssholes about the Bible. They preach the doctrines of men, and not the doctrines of the Bible. All an American protestant is is a reformed Roman Catholic, and they reformists carried over 99% of the ancient Roman Catholic doctrines with them when they left the Catholic church, including all of their crazy @ss Greco-Roman inspired mythology. Zeus the king of gods vs the rebellious gods and demigods. His brother Hades wants to be ruler of the gods, so Hades tries to fight Zeus. Of course Zeus is much stronger, so he easily defeats Hades and casts him to the underworld. Hades now hates Zeus, so Hades tries to steal all of the dead human souls from Zeus and keep them in the underworld to torment them. Sound familiar? Sounds like Dante's Inferno, etc.... which is nothing but Roman Catholic mythology, and most Christians today believe in this garbage, which cannot be found anyplace in the Bible. Although they teach that it can be.

And I spend a few hours a week on average studying the Bible.

[naomi]

Many "satans", "devils", "demons", and "angels", exist. But they are all either Earth men, or false mythological gods that do not exist, not the mythological angels that rebelled against the living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that you can read about in the book of Enoch.

If you're using the bible as your source, the bible never says they're mythological. Now I understand that you're saying the reader should infer that, and that's where I disagree with you.

Again, I'll use the Hebrew to prove my point.

There are only 2 Hebrew words used for demons/devils in the Bible. שָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) and שֵׁד (shed).

The main meaning of שָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) is goat. It is used 52 times in the Bible for goat, 2 times for hairy, 2 times for devil/demon, and 2 times for satyr. Both times is is used for devils/demons is when it is used for the Idolatry of false gods. And false gods do not exist. They are mythology.

Hypothetically, if demons existed, and you had someone worshiping a graven image, you don't think that would be an activity of interest to them, flames to fan? I think people are being spiritually mocked in those circumstances.

Lev 17:6And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

7And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devilsשָׂעִיר(sa`iyr) , after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

2 Ch 11:14For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:

15And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devilsשָׂעִיר(sa`iyr), and for the calves which he had made.

These devils/demonsare not fallen angels, but Idols and false gods. They do not exist. They are graven images that men conjured up with their own imaginations.

The meaning of שֵׁד (shed) is devils/demon. It is only used 2 times in the Bible, both times for devils/demons. Again, it is not used for fallen angels, but rather Idols and false gods.

Deu 32:15But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17They sacrificed unto devilsשֵׁד (shed), not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Psalm 106:34They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them:

35But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.

36And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.

37Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devilsשֵׁד (shed),

38And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

No fallen angels here, just Idols and false gods which do not exist according to the Bible. They are mythology. There is only ONE God according to scripture.

What was Satan's (the adversary) motivation? To be like God. An opportunity to lord over people to the end of utter corruption? Have them falling at your feet.
...Might be something of interest.

The 4 Greek words for devils/demons used in the N.T. scriptures are διάβολος(diabolos = slanderer), δαιμονίζομαι(daimonizomai = have devils), and δαιμόνιον(daimonion = false diety) and δαίμων(daimōn = inferior diety). Again, these Greek words don't mean fallen angel. They are the same as the Hebrew words, they are slanderers, false gods and idols.

This is where A definitely doesn't necessarily mean B. Because the word 'adversary' is used as a descriptor (the Hebrews called things by their attributes, like Native Americans with people's names)...because slanderer, false God (the devil and fallen angels wanted to be like God, they set themselves up as such, but they are not God, they are false Gods), and idols....that means spiritual beings besides God and man, don't exist? That doesn't establish that.

Why do you think the mythology (going with your POV) was used? There's one being/force/spirit in particular that's portrayed as having a domain- a kingdom on earth. I can think of ways to figuratively appreciate that, sure, but comparing scripture to scripture throughout the bible, I definitely think it's trying to tell me something else.

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Peter 5:8. ...Your adversary the devil.

"And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Revelation 12:9

Serpent, devil, Satan, deceiver, who has angels.

If your aim is to make something concrete out of something originally meant mythologically, so you select when you employ one word over another with a purpose beside capturing contextually valid nuance, you don't want to then throw them all together. There's a thematic tie in between all of those throughout the bible for a purpose. The above is talking about the judgement of that being, and everything about him is taken into account.

Now why is the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) not used even ONE TIME by Moses in the Torah? How could Moses possible be ignorant of this supposed fallen angel named Lucifer/Satan? Moses wrote 5 books in the Old Testament. 14 of the 26 times the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) is used in the Hebrew scriptures, can be found in the book of Job. And let's not forget that if the English translators would actually "translate" the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan), then the word "adversary" would appear every time in the English Bibles. Young's Literal English Bible translation for example, translates every Hebrew word, so you never see the untranslated Hebrew word satan in the text, much less capitalizing it like it's the name of some mythological fallen angel. And of course, even the English translators properly translate the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan)several times in most English versions of the Bible.

1 Sam 29:4And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversaryשָׂטָן(satan) to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?

1 Kings 11:13Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.

14And the LORD stirred up an adversaryשָׂטָן(satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.

Covered the 'adversary' point already.

Now I know what some will say. The reason Moses did not use the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) even one time in the Torah, was because he used the word "serpent" for the fallen angel Satan instead. Really????????? Let's look at this Hebrew word, shall we?

נָחָשׁ(nachash = serpent, snake, dragon constellation in the northern sky, enchantment, and divine signs). Now who could this "serpent" be? Who does Moses name as being in the Garden in Genesis? Only 2 are named, man and woman, there is no 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc...... party in the garden according to Moses in Genesis. Only 2 beings. So one of these 2 has to be the "serpent". So which one is it, man or woman? Who did God tell not to eat of the fruit first, man or woman? It was the man Adam(Gen 2:16-17) . So the man Adam is the serpent. And this man's seed murdered the woman's seed. Cain is Adam's seed(spiritually), and Able and Seth are the woman's seed(spiritually) Eve is the mother of all the living(spiritually)Gen 32:20, and Adam is the father of all the dead(spiritually)1 Cor 15:21-22. Christ did not come from Cain's seed, but Seth's seed. Cain the farmer(just like his father Adam)was a murderer, and Seth was the shepherd seed of the woman God replaced the shepherd Cain murdered his brother Abel(Eve's seed) with(Gen 4:25). And Christ came from the woman's seed, not the man's seed. Christ is the good shepherd like Abel and Seth, not the murderous dirt farmer from the seed of the murderer Cain. Luke chapter 3 puts Christ in Seth's blood line, not Cain's blood line.

Whoa. That's interesting. We both know how the chapter reads. Granted I've never read it in the Hebrew (can, have access to books that would help...it would be pretty slow going though) but I'm thinking the general flow of that passage was translated in the right direction. Other living things were with them. When it goes into God talking to them, he breaks the profound, individual lasting effects down for each of them...there are three breakdowns of what he has to say.

And earlier in the narrative, how it switches between actions relating to the serpent and Adam's actions would be peculiar if they are one and the same.

Now lets get to the Hebrew word for angel which is מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak). Now before I tell you the meaning of this word, let's address the English word "angel". The English word "ange" comes from the Latin word "angelus" which comes from the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso). Again, the English Bible translators leave the Hebrew and Greek words untranslated on purpose, and write the English word "angel" in place of the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) and the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso). Both the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) and the Greek word ἄγγελος(aggelso)mean the same thing, "messenger". If the English translators would not leave these 2 words untranslated, then the text would always read "messenger" and not "angel". Now the English Bible translators properly translate the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)at least 100 times in the Bible. But leave it untranslated over 100 times as well.

Now how do I know these angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) are men, and not mythological heavenly creatures with wings and halos? The scriptures, that's how. The angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)that come to Sodom are called "men".

Gen 19:1And there came two angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Are these Heavenly creatures with wings and halos? Now look at what the English Bible translators do here. They leave the Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ(mal'ak)untranslated on purpose the first time, while properly translating it the second. Wonder why?

Gen 32:1And Jacob went on his way, and the angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) of God met him.

2And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.

3And Jacob sent messengersמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.

4And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:

Angelsמַלְאָךְ(mal'ak) are men, and yet the English Bible translators want you to believe otherwise in many cases. They want you to believe in mythological demi-gods with wings on their backs, flying around in Heaven, or roasting in Hell with their master Lucifer. But a quick glance at the ancient Biblical Hebrew and Greek texts show otherwise.

The Angel = messenger thought is one I've been familiar with for a long time. But that messenger is an actual spiritual being. I'll give you that I don't regard them as convention does either, with halos and such. They're spirits. Lot dealt with spiritual messengers.

How does the Hebrew and Greek text showing you they're messengers = they're also mythological? Now you might believe that, because you just do, but that in of itself doesn't establish that they're mythological. This is what I meant about what you're doing by sharing these words. Yes, words have been put in place of other words, as happens in translation from one language to another, but that doesn't render what was being communicated with the original word as mythological in of itself Don't get me wrong...I do understand how meaning can be altered with (sometimes strategically) crummy translations, but so far what we're dealing with is substitutive translation, not mistranslation.

In 2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called the God of this world. The bible does establish there is only one God. I know we definitely agree there (since you've been saying it), which is why I'm mentioning it. He's God over all. So what's going on there? A 'God of this world' is a counterfeit God, but the world, on its own end, will effectively worship him. He's a false God. 'False' isn't always used with the thrust of 'non-existent' to it, it can be used in the sense of being counterfeit...enjoying the status, wrongly.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15:

..."For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Notice his ministers are distinct from him.

False apostles have also been mentioned. These aren't people who don't exist.

They're people preaching a counterfeit gospel, appealing to the name of Christ, but not in truth. So you have messengers transformed into messengers of light, deceiving people. It's kind of interesting that offshoots of Judeo Christian religion that contradict the bible happened on the occasion of messengers of light visiting the prophets. The angel Gabriel with Mohammed and the angel Moroni with Joseph Smith.

Throughout high school I babysat for a Mormon family. One day I read this part in the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith's introduction):

“On the evening of the … twenty-first of September [1823] … I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God. …

“While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

“He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant.

As the BOM is often attached to the bible, after reading that I just flipped into the bible and the first thing my eyes fell on was that passage above in 2 Corinthians.

Anyway, false prophet existent people are described as ministers distinct from the spiritual source of their deception. Something real is happening there.

[naomi]

The Unclean Spirits in Mark 5 are also called demonsδαίμων(daimōn)in Mark 5:12 which means inferior deity. In other words, a mythological creature. There are no such thing as demigods or inferior deities like the ancient Persians and Greeks had. There is only ONE God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The first century Jews(including the disciples) believed in mythological spirits that made people crazy and sick, but this is because they didn't have modern medical knowledge. They were not lying, because they lived in the 1st century, not the 21st century. They could not do a brain scan on a person who had a neurological disorder like autism, violent tendencies like self mutilation(guy in Mark 5) and cutting, bipolar disorder, etc....... so they blamed these neurological disorders on ἀκάθαρτος(akathartos = unclean in thought and life and ceremonially) πνεῦμα(pneuma = movement of air, wind, breath, spirit, soul).

My other post went into how you connect the calling of something an inferior deity, and the knowledge of there being one God, as establishing that anything in the bible called an inferior deity = it doesn't exist. Let me know if what I'm saying in response to that makes sense to you or not.

So do you think Christ simply physically healed the man, but decided to accommodate the disciples and the public's sense that he was spiritually possessed? And then he sent the herd of swine off the cliff for the grand finale?

In Ephesians 6, the devil named here are men(masters according to the flesh(or Jewish political/religious leaders) in Eph 6:5) , not a mythological fallen angel named Lucifer. The Greek word used for devil in Eph 6:11 is διάβολος(diabolos) which means false accuser or slander. Who was the false accuser of Christ? A fallen angel or a man? It was the chief priest Caiaphas(Read Matt chapter 26 to get the story) who was the false accuser(devil), not some mythological fallen angel called Satan/Lucifer. So what are the powers in Ephesians 6 then? Men with political and religious power, or fallen angels? Lets look at the Greek again, but before we do this, we need to see what the phrase "flesh and blood" means. And it doesn't mean a human being's literal skin and blood at all. This phrase "flesh and blood" is used 5 times in the N.T. And it is a phrase that is a metaphor for a religious Jew. The religious Jew was the enemy of Christ, and they chanted before the Roman governor Pilot to free the murderer Barabas and to crucify Christ. This is why Christ tells Peter that "flesh and blood"(religious Jews) did not reveal the Christ to Peter, but rather God in Heaven did(Matt 16).

So who are the powers and principalities? the common man religious Jewsflesh and blood), or the religious Jewish leaders? Well the common man had no power, but the religious leaders were also the political leaders, and they had power. They were the rulers of darkness mentioned, and they persecuted the 1st century Jewish Christians even to the point of death. Most of the Jewish Christians fled Jerusalem and went to Asia(You can read about these Jewish Christians who fled to Asia in Acts 19, and the book Revelation addressed to the 7 Jewish Christian churches in Asia).

Now to the Greek. ἀρχή(archē = principalities)which means chief leader, first leader, and magistracy. ἐξουσία(exousia = powers) which means authority, jurisdiction, and ruler. Now the Greek word for rulers of the darkness of this age used here is a combination of 2 Greek words, and this is the only time this word κοσμοκράτωρ(kosmokratōr) is used in the entire Bible. The 2 Greek words combined here are κόσμος(kosmos= universe, order, and government) and κρατέω(krateō = have power, hold, and take). As you can see by the Greek, these are Human rulers, not fallen angels of any kind.

If Caiaphas shares the essence of what Ephesians 6:12 is saying we struggle against, then he can't be flesh and blood. Since it says we don't struggle against that. But your argument implies he is flesh and blood, at the same time.

Please share those 5 passages in regards to every time flesh and blood is used. (Could google but I'm curious how you'll break them down if you have anything to add).

With the bold, what I actually see is that people in positions of power, even when they're the architects, aren't the ultimate architects of what they're doing. They're being used, they're governed, they're under the domain of the God of this world. Again it's not an A-B thing, unless you're coming in holding to that already.

[naomi]

I used to go to Church every Sunday up until about 8 years ago, but as I started studying the Bible for myself
, in the original manuscript languages, I got jaded about what I was being taught in Church. These guys preach the gospel of Christ, but after this, they don't know their elbows from their @sssholes about the Bible. They preach the doctrines of men, and not the doctrines of the Bible. All an American protestant is is a reformed Roman Catholic, and they reformists carried over 99% of the ancient Roman Catholic doctrines with them when they left the Catholic church, including all of their crazy @ss Greco-Roman inspired mythology. Zeus the king of gods vs the rebellious gods and demigods. His brother Hades wants to be ruler of the gods, so Hades tries to fight Zeus. Of course Zeus is much stronger, so he easily defeats Hades and casts him to the underworld. Hades now hates Zeus, so Hades tries to steal all of the dead human souls from Zeus and keep them in the underworld to torment them. Sound familiar? Sounds like Dante's Inferno, etc.... which is nothing but Roman Catholic mythology, and most Christians today believe in this garbage, which cannot be found anyplace in the Bible. Although they teach that it can be.

And I spend a few hours a week on average studying the Bible.

One thing about arguments about the bible hijacking from cultural legends and mystic beliefs is that IF it's a true account of the beginning of history and onward, there's going to be ancient reflection of what's reported in that writing that was done at a later date. The first man and woman had the same knowledge of biblical (God's) doctrine that the bible affords us. IF the stuff we're going back and forth about DOES exist, then it's not at all weird it would be echoed and perverted. It reminds me of how the concept of a world wide flood is scoffed at because cultures around the globe have legends of experiencing a momentous flood.

[Savage Beast]

What was Satan's (the adversary) motivation? To be like God. An opportunity to lord over people to the end of utter corruption? Have them falling at your feet.






"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Peter 5:8. ...Your adversary the devil.

"And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Revelation 12:9

Serpent, devil, Satan, deceiver, who has angels.

In 2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called the God of this world. The bible does establish there is only one God. I know we definitely agree there (since you've been saying it), which is why I'm mentioning it. He's God over all. So what's going on there? A 'God of this world' is a counterfeit God, but the world, on its own end, will effectively worship him. He's a false God. 'False' isn't always used with the thrust of 'non-existent' to it, it can be used in the sense of being counterfeit...enjoying the status, wrongly.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15:

..."For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Notice his ministers are distinct from him.

False apostles have also been mentioned. These aren't people who don't exist.

They're people preaching a counterfeit gospel, appealing to the name of Christ, but not in truth. So you have messengers transformed into messengers of light, deceiving people. It's kind of interesting that offshoots of Judeo Christian religion that contradict the bible happened on the occasion of messengers of light visiting the prophets. The angel Gabriel with Mohammed and the angel Moroni with Joseph Smith.



Anyway, false prophet existent people are described as ministers distinct from the spiritual source of their deception. Something real is happening there.

First off, you stated that Satan's motivation was to be like God? Where can this be found in the Bible? I'm guessing you think it can be found in Ezekiel 28? Where the prophet writes a lamentation about the King of Tyrus?

Again, there is no fallen angel called Satan/Lucifer. Satan is an untranslated Hebrew word, not a proper name at all. The Hebrew word is not capitalized, and it means "adversary". Is "adversary" a name like John, Peter, Or Jesus for example? No, it's a noun that means opponent or enemy. Firstly, saint Jerome left this Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) untranslated and then capitalized it in his 4th century Roman Catholic commissioned Latin Bible(the Vulgate) translation 19 times to make it appear like the name of somebody. He translated it properly 8 times to adversary or withstand. The King James Bible translated the Latin Vulgate of Jerome into English, and did the same thing. Left the word satan untranslated 19 times on purpose and capitalized it to make it look like the name of some angel. The Greek New Testament word for "adversary" is Σατανᾶς(Satanas). It means adversary as well. The Hebrew word satan is used for many different adversaries throughout the Bible, as is the Greek word Satanas. It's not one guy, but many different guys depending on the scripture it is being used in.

How is the King of Tyre a fallen angel named Lucifer? Sargon was a real live King of צֹר(Tsor = Tyrus) the ancient Phoenician city on the Mediterranean coast. And God told Ezekiel to wirte a lamentation for this king. Do you know what a lamentation קִינָה(qiynah) is? It's a poem or song for a dead man, a lament or elegy. Now is this fallen angel called Lucifer a dead man? I thought he was an immortal spiritual creature? But he appears to have died before Ezekiel was even born? How could this be? In Ezekiel 28:18, the King of Tyrus was accused of defiling the temple by the iniquities of his רְכֻלָּה(rĕkullah = merchandise or traded merchandise). Lol, so Lucifer sold cheap carpets and garments in the temple? Really? Sargon was this king who the lament was taken out for, just like the text says. It was the King of Tyrus, not some fallen angel named Satan/Lucifer. The Lucifer in Isiah 14 is the king of Babylon living during Isiah's time named Merodach Baladan, not a fallen angel. The text says in black and white, take up a מָשָׁל(mashal = proverb or parable) against the King of Babylon. The Hebrew word Lucifer is not a bad word at all. הֵילֵל(heylel = lucifer = shining one, morning star, and Venus). Christ himself is called the morning star(Rev 22:16). It's a parable about this real live King's fall from God's grace, not some fallen angel named Satan/Lucifer. Since the Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) is not used, the Roman Catholic church deemed that Lucifer was another name for this fallen angel named Satan. But where do the scriptures say this? Certainly not in Isiah 14 or Ezekiel 28. Just more ancient Roman Catholic mythology is all.

1 Peter 5:8 is talking about the adversary of the Jewish Christians that Peter is writing to. Who was this adversary? The adversary is called the διάβολος(diabolos) which means slander or falsely accuse.

2 Tim 33 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderersδιάβολος(diabolos), without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Just as the Jewish High Priest Ciaphas falsely accused the Christ, so Jewish men and their religious leaders falsely accused the Jewish Christians whom Peter was writing to. These devils(false accusers) were not some kind of fallen angel, but wicked men.

In the book of Revelation, does the adversary(satan) have angels(messengers). Yes he does. But who is this great dragon adversary? Who was turned into the den of dragons? was it a bunch of angels? Or a bunch of wicked men in Jerusalem?

Jer 9:7 Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Behold, I will refine them and try them;
For how shall I deal with the daughter of My people?
8 Their tongue is an arrow shot out;
It speaks deceit;
One speaks peaceably to his neighbor with his mouth,
But in his heart he lies in wait.
9 Shall I not punish them for these things?” says the Lord.
“Shall I not avenge Myself on such a nation as this?”
10 I will take up a weeping and wailing for the mountains,
And for the dwelling places of the wilderness a lamentation,
Because they are burned up,
So that no one can pass through;
Nor can men hear the voice of the cattle.
Both the birds of the heavens and the beasts have fled;
They are gone.

11 “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins, a den of dragons.
I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.”

2 Corinthians 4 does not use the Greek word Σατανᾶς(Satanas) anyplace at all. It never mentions satan at all? It says god of this αἰών(aiōn =age) age, not world. The King James Bible does not translate the Greek word αἰών(aiōn =age) properly, but the rest of the English Bible translations do. It's the God of this age(1st century) that was being spoken of by Paul. Paul lived in the 1st century, not the 21st century.

[Voltaire]

Walls of text peppered with evil Greek words and Bible quotes are scary.

[Mookz]

I seriously cannot believe it took this long for naomi and Savage Beast to really get into it.

[mobb_deep]

Walls of text peppered with evil Greek words and Bible quotes are scary.

I thought they were talking about World of Warcraft.

[Savage Beast]

I seriously cannot believe it took this long for naomi and Savage Beast to really get into it.

It's hard to discuss sound Biblical hermeneutics with a reformed Roman Catholic like naomi. She is my sister in Christ, but she also has been taught the same B.S. I was taught in an organized Protestant Church. I'm guessing naomi is also a futurist/dispensationalist, so she believes in a rapture and that Christ is actually going to set foot on the planet Earth again in his physical body, and take over the planet by killing billions of non-Christian people including the Devil and his other fallen angel minions. And then Christ will reign as king of the planet Earth, in a castle on the throne of David in Jerusalem, and all of the people Christ spares in his great war on the planet Earth will worship Christ in a rebuilt temple forevermore. But I don't want to put words in her mouth?

[penultimatestraw]

It's hard to discuss sound Biblical hermeneutics with a reformed Roman Catholic like naomi. She is my sister in Christ, but she also has been taught the same B.S. I was taught in an organized Protestant Church. I'm guessing naomi is also a futurist/dispensationalist, so she believes in a rapture and that Christ is actually going to set foot on the planet Earth again in his physical body, and take over the planet by killing billions of non-Christian people including the Devil and his other fallen angel minions. And then Christ will reign as king of the planet Earth, in a castle on the throne of David in Jerusalem, and all of the people Christ spares in his great war on the planet Earth will worship Christ in a rebuilt temple forevermore. But I don't want to put words in her mouth?

Sounds like a bunch of hot πνεῦμα to me.