28 replies to this topic

[throttlers]

What are your thoughts on him beyond this week? Would he ever make it into your starting lineup?

[Bruce Benedict]

I'm cautiously optimistic. I continue to believe he's the best receiver there, despite DHB's solid end-to-the-season, and despite all the rookie hype surrounding Streater, and despite the fact that McFadden looks like the early favorite to lead the known universe in receptions this year.

I'm cautiously optimistic because I believe that AND because the Raiders seem to be shaping up to be a team that's going to chuck it a lot. DMoore seems like a textbook WCO wideout, and I'm hoping he and Palmer get a thing going, and he'll be a nice, reliable, 6 or 7 catch a week guy once he's fully integrated.

Will he ever make it into my lineup? Sure, if he comes through on all that. If he doesn't, I've lost pretty much nothing for playing wait-and-see.

[Frozenbeernuts]

I'm cautiously optimistic. I continue to believe he's the best receiver there, despite DHB's solid end-to-the-season, and despite all the rookie hype surrounding Streater, and despite the fact that McFadden looks like the early favorite to lead the known universe in receptions this year.

I'm cautiously optimistic because I believe that AND because the Raiders seem to be shaping up to be a team that's going to chuck it a lot. DMoore seems like a textbook WCO wideout, and I'm hoping he and Palmer get a thing going, and he'll be a nice, reliable, 6 or 7 catch a week guy once he's fully integrated.

Will he ever make it into my lineup? Sure, if he comes through on all that. If he doesn't, I've lost pretty much nothing for playing wait-and-see.

By chuck it a lot do you mean dump it to mcfadden 18 times a game?

[Matt Mueller]

I'm looking for 1 player in my NON PPR league this week and I don't think it's crazy to think he might have the most upside .

Mathews-OUT
D Will-Awful last week, JsStew returning
D. McCluster- 10 targets I think... 6-82
D. Moore-Returning against a Miami team that is pretty good against the run and pretty bad against the pass.

McCluster might be the safe call. Moore migtht be the risky upside call. DWill might be the pray for a TD and not a 0 call.

[CookieG]

By "textbook WCO", i'm assuming that stands for West Coast Offense? As in, running short crossing routes and gaining big YAC?

Denarius skill set, if he healths up, would lend itself to that I suppose, but do they really use him that way? He seems more like an X spot receiver who gets a lot of medium to deep balls thrown to him.. and a lot of jump balls.

Just my opinion, but while I like him, I don't really trust Palmer to be consistent at all and I esp don't trust WRs with early season hammy issues. How often do they ever just heal on there own and not flare back up?

He's a stash with upside IMO.. but i'd be hesitant to even bank on him as a WR3 until he plays a few weeks and demonstrates that his hamstring issue is going in the right direction.

[Matt Mueller]

By "textbook WCO", i'm assuming that stands for West Coast Offense? As in, running short crossing routes and gaining big YAC?

Denarius skill set, if he healths up, would lend itself to that I suppose, but do they really use him that way? He seems more like an X spot receiver who gets a lot of medium to deep balls thrown to him.. and a lot of jump balls.

From everything I saw last year he was mostly thrown to deep down the field, along the sidelines and occasionally used on a reverse.

[Bruce Benedict]

From everything I saw last year he was mostly thrown to deep down the field, along the sidelines and occasionally used on a reverse.

Everything you saw last year was completely irrelevant, because Gregg Knapp is a completely different OC.

[Bruce Benedict]

By chuck it a lot do you mean dump it to mcfadden 18 times a game?

By dump it to McFadden 18 times a game, do you mean 18 out of 46?

Lots to go around in a WCO.

[Matt Mueller]

Everything you saw last year was completely irrelevant, because Gregg Knapp is a completely different OC.

That's a totally great point. McFadden's role looked completely different week 1. As an owner not sure I'm happy about that

I haven't noticed you around these parts before this season but I've been consistently impressed with your analysis and insight.

[Bruce Benedict]

Hey, many of thanks.

People need to realize that when we're talking about the move from the Hue Jackson/Al Saunders offense to the Gregg Knapp one, we're not talking about apples and oranges. We're talking about apples and fire extinguishers or something.

Hue and Al were the last vestiges of the Al Davis dream to bomb the other team into oblivion. I swear, the phrase "vertical passing game" probably made him erectional years after broads stopped doing it for him.

Gregg is a dyed-in-the-wool WCO disciple, having come of age under Seifert back in the day. He believes in dumpoffs, short slants and crossing routes, and using the short game to set up the deep pass. Those 46 passes were a lot, but they're not going to prove to be all that huge an outlier. Palmer is a nice fit in this O, as are McFadden and (I think) Moore. They've got some kinks to work out, still, and obviously it'll be nice to get their players healthy and back on the field.

But the take home is this: don't overanalyze what these guys did last year and try to draw too many conclusions based on that, because this year the scheme is night and day different.

[CookieG]

Funny, in an above thread, Matt & I were going on about how much we generally liked stashing Kendall Hunter. The Gore owner in my 12 teamer has Denarius.. and despite my reluctance to want to add a speedy WR with a hamstring issue, you have me thinking now with your WCO observation with the new Oaktown OC.

Moore has got those sick ball instincts.. and you just know Palmer likes him more than DHB; he just gushed about the kid when he worked with him only a little bit after arriving last season.

Food for thought. thanks!

[Frozenbeernuts]

By dump it to McFadden 18 times a game, do you mean 18 out of 46?

Lots to go around in a WCO.

Yes he did throw it a lot, but his arm strength is gone. He is dumping it a lot and did not look very good when trying to connect with his WR downfield. Plus I just don't think Moore is that good.

[CookieG]

Why? Route running? Getting separation? I'm being serious.. not a smart a** reply; cause when the kid has been healthy, he looks like he's got ridiculous skills as far as making unreal grabs. he had a couple of sweet runs after the catch his rookie season as well.

[Bruce Benedict]

Yes he did throw it a lot, but his arm strength is gone. He is dumping it a lot and did not look very good when trying to connect with his WR downfield. Plus I just don't think Moore is that good.

To be sure, Palmer was an ill fit in the Saunders O, because yeah, he lost his fastball. Just never seemed to quite recover from the Kimo avalanche.

But he still reads the field well, and still throws a nice ball, as long as he doesn't have to chuck it 50 yards. Which he won't with Gregg Knapp calling the plays. It won't all be dumpoffs, but short stuff? Yeah, mostly. Allen already went on record saying he wished they hadn't used DMC so heavily week one, but with all their other horses in the stable they had no choice. Says to me that when Moore and DHB are on the field, they intend to target DMC less out of the backfield, and the WR's more. And since it's a WCO and all, those WR's are still going to get plenty of looks.

I wouldn't expect a great YPC number, but a high volume of receptions and lots of easy catches with chances to do some RAC stuff? Yeah, probly. It ain't Montana to Rice, but it's something.

[Matt Mueller]

Yes he did throw it a lot, but his arm strength is gone. He is dumping it a lot and did not look very good when trying to connect with his WR downfield. Plus I just don't think Moore is that good.

Wow really? Moore had some of my favorite highlights among all players in the league last year. I think the kid's got it.

[Frozenbeernuts]

Why? Route running? Getting separation? I'm being serious.. not a smart a** reply; cause when the kid has been healthy, he looks like he's got ridiculous skills as far as making unreal grabs. he had a couple of sweet runs after the catch his rookie season as well.

He just doesn't seem exceptional at anything. He ran a 4.43 40 yard dash at the combine. That is fast but not burner speed. When you are less than 6' tall and 200 pounds you need to be a little faster. His agility measurements weren't exceptional either. He was relatively weak while a guy in Dexter McCluster, 20 pounds lighter, put up about 6 or 7 more reps on bench press. He has decent size hands at 9.3" but they aren't exceptionally big or anything. So yeah with a great QB he may be able to put up some very good stats, in a WCO and Carson Palmer at QB I don't see much consistent numbers that would warrant consistent starts on a fantasy team.

[WR Guru]

He just doesn't seem exceptional at anything. He ran a 4.43 40 yard dash at the combine. That is fast but not burner speed...His agility measurements weren't exceptional either...McCluster, 20 pounds lighter, put up about 6 or 7 more reps on bench press...He has decent size hands at 9.3" but they aren't exceptionally big...

Thanks Mel Kiper

I'll trust what I see on the field and not some highly controlled tests of guys in shorts and t-shirts. Game speed in pads with safeties trying to decapitate you is not the same as stopwatch speed in an empty stadium. You know who else had unimpressive combine numbers? Jerry Rice.

[Matt Mueller]

Raiders place Ford on season-ending I.R.
Raiders placed WR/KR Jacoby Ford (foot) on season-ending injured reserve.
Ford underwent surgery on Wednesday to repair a Lisfranc injury to his left foot, and head coach Dennis Allen hinted that Ford's season could be over on Thursday. This move was fully expected after hearing the dreaded "Lisfranc" come up. Ford suffered the exact same injury in the 2011 season and it's turning out to be a major issue for his development. Rookie Rod Streater will continue to have a large role in Oakland's offense in 2012.

There should be a lot of balls heading Moore's way if all goes well.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Wow really? Moore had some of my favorite highlights among all players in the league last year. I think the kid's got it.

This!

[Matt Mueller]

This!

Seriously that end around where he burns everyone and dives into the endzone, that catch over 2 defenders against buffalo and that shoe string finger tip grab deep down the side line were 3 of the best plays I saw all year.

[Kent]

Seriously that end around where he burns everyone and dives into the endzone, that catch over 2 defenders against buffalo and that shoe string finger tip grab deep down the side line were 3 of the best plays I saw all year.

He doesn't separate. All the highlights the corners either run him down or are in his pocket.

[Serpent]

The real problem is he is always injured. So is everyone else on that team. Maybe they need a new practice field or something.

[Bruce Benedict]

He just doesn't seem exceptional at anything. He ran a 4.43 40 yard dash at the combine. That is fast but not burner speed. When you are less than 6' tall and 200 pounds you need to be a little faster. His agility measurements weren't exceptional either. He was relatively weak while a guy in Dexter McCluster, 20 pounds lighter, put up about 6 or 7 more reps on bench press. He has decent size hands at 9.3" but they aren't exceptionally big or anything. So yeah with a great QB he may be able to put up some very good stats, in a WCO and Carson Palmer at QB I don't see much consistent numbers that would warrant consistent starts on a fantasy team.

I mean no offense, but do you know what a WCO is? It's been out of vogue for several years, so maybe younger guys genuinely don't...not sure.

But a WCO is probably the best way ever invented by football coaches to make sure a WR's numbers ARE consistent and reliable. The survival of the offense relies upon that basic premise -- that short, easily completable passes to the wideouts are the most efficient way of moving the ball downfield. It may or may not actually IMPROVE their numbers, but since the WCO essentially uses short WR routes as the de facto running game, WCO wideouts have traditionally had less variance than just about anyone.

[Bruce Benedict]

Not that DMoore's numbers are a slam dunk for that level consistency just yet. He's got to prove he's able to contribute on-field, and Palmer has to prove himself in the system, too. But my premise is just that I like both performers' chances in this particular O. I think OAK has much better prospects offensively than they did the first time Knapp rolled through town.

[TennisMenace]

Palmer is now unreliable. Because he can't chuck it downfield, DMoore is obsolete. Look for Streiter to be more effective.

[Bruce Benedict]

Since they're now saying Moore is on a limited snap count for this week (which just makes sense, I suppose), I'd only consider using him in very dire circumstances. Reevaluate after the first quarter of the season.

[Bruce Benedict]

Palmer is now unreliable. Because he can't chuck it downfield, DMoore is obsolete. Look for Streiter to be more effective.

Let's forget about the WCO for a moment, since there seems to be some sort of allergy to it in this thread.

Even last year, when the Raiders will still playing Al Saunders's downfield passing game, Moore had almost 75% of his receptions 20 yards or less from the line of scrimmage, and almost 50% 10 yards or less downfield. He wasn't downfield reliant BEFORE the offense changed.

Nothing here makes sense. I'm going back to huffing paint.

[Matt Mueller]

Let's forget about the WCO for a moment, since there seems to be some sort of allergy to it in this thread.

Even last year, when the Raiders will still playing Al Saunders's downfield passing game, Moore had almost 75% of his receptions 20 yards or less from the line of scrimmage, and almost 50% 10 yards or less downfield. He wasn't downfield reliant BEFORE the offense changed.

Nothing here makes sense. I'm going back to huffing paint.

I'm all for the WCO offense but based on the boxscore and McFadden's empty stat line, this guys play calling looks like garbadge to me.

[Bruce Benedict]

I'm all for the WCO offense but based on the boxscore and McFadden's empty stat line, this guys play calling looks like garbadge to me.

Oh, I've got no opinion on whether it's a GOOD plan or not. I'm just saying it's a plan, and we know what it is. But got to say I felt a lot more optimistic about McFadden after the 13 rec. week than I do right now.

And oh yeah, the defense...not pretty.

Might be something to the idea that the WCO, plus a crappy D, is going to equal a lot of 300+ yd opportunity for Palmer this season.