Tie breaker controversy

[erikthebassist 41]

I need your input folks. I need to know whether to go to the wall over this or if I need to sit down and shut up.

 

I won't say what team I am in this scenario so as not to color responses.

 

Teams A, B and C are all 8-5, tied for division lead.

 

The "Official" tie breaker is head to head record, then total points.

 

Team A has split games with both B and C, and has more total points than both.

 

Team C lost to B, and split with A, and team B obviously then beat C and split with A.

 

One interpretation is that A beats both B and C on tie breakers, and is therefor the division winner.

 

Another interpretation, which is only being raised because the site we use does it this way, but it was never written in the by-laws, is that B has the best win percentage in head to head among the three teams because he is 2-1, while A is 2-2, and C is 1-2.

 

This method of taking the won loss percentage among all games played between the tied teams was not written in our by laws, it was simply stated "head to head then total points", but because the website is auto-calculating it that way, and the NFL does it that way, some think that we should do it that way too.

 

What say you all? Team A beats B and C in 2 way ties with either, but because it's three way and B has one fewer loss due to playing one less game, should he get the title and the bye week as a result?

[nobody 2,031]

I don't think the nfl does it that way. In the case of a 3-way tie, a team needs to be undefeated against the other two to win the tie break. In any case, no way A or C should win the tie break.

[philmckracken 3]

"Another interpretation, which is only being raised because the site we use does it this way, but it was never written in the by-laws, is that B has the best win percentage in head to head among the three teams because he is 2-1, while A is 2-2, and C is 1-2."

 

I don't like this method because the three teams did not play each other an equal amount of times.

[nobody 2,031]

Just looked it up. The division tie breaker is win-loss percentage in games among the clubs and the wildcard is that you have to sweep. B is in.

[da browns 10]

In many leagues, we default to the scoring of the web site UNLESS our written rules specifically say othewise. It sounds like B wins in your case. I suggest a rule revision for next year.

[Quickolas1 80]

In the case of a 3-way tie, a team needs to be undefeated against the other two to win the tie break. In any case, no way A or C should win the tie break.

H2H sweep applies/is necessary if the teams are in different divisions.

 

Because all in same division, the NFL would first eliminate Team C based on the 1-2 H2H record.

 

Now that it's down to A and B... start over...

 

Since A and B split H2H, you'd then go to the next tie-breaker. Total Points = Team A.

 

The NFL would not give it to Team B.

[Newkid 1]

Why are the number of games played not the same between the teams? It pretty much makes any of the tiebreaker methods you stated look questionable because of that.

[erikthebassist 41]

Why are the number of games played not the same between the teams? It pretty much makes any of the tiebreaker methods you stated look questionable because of that.

long story, again shitty website defaulteed out second year league to 17 weeks instead of 16, matchups were all because of it. Can't go back and change them.

[Franknbeans 46]

Quickolas seems to have it right. Adjust the rules in the off-season, if necessary.

[nobody 2,031]

H2H sweep applies/is necessary if the teams are in different divisions.

Because all in same division, the NFL would first eliminate Team C based on the 1-2 H2H record.

Now that it's down to A and B... start over...

Since A and B split H2H, you'd then go to the next tie-breaker. Total Points = Team A.

The NFL would not give it to Team B.

Why wouldn't you just say team B has the best win percentage therefore they win the tiebreak?

[erikthebassist 41]

Why wouldn't you just say team A has the best win percentage therefore they win the tiebreak?

because among the three teams, A is 2-2, and B is 2-1, higher win %

[nobody 2,031]

Yeah I meant B. Great catch. I'll edit it.

[giraldi02 470]

NFL.com sucks with their tie-breakers

[jdon 28]

This is why total points should always be the tie breaker:

the only thing you can really control is the amount of points your team scores over the course of the year.... therefor, after records, I always make total points the tiebreaker.

jdon

[Law 220]

Cool! It's like the LSAT all over again!

 

NFL Rules:

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
5. Strength of victory.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
9. Best net points in common games.
10. Best net points in all games.
11. Best net touchdowns in all games.
12. Coin toss

Two Clubs

1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
5. Strength of victory.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
9. Best net points in common games.
10. Best net points in all games.
11. Best net touchdowns in all games.
12. Coin toss

 

 

Seems to me Team B wins on the very first step of the rules for 3 or more clubs, namely, best win percentage. Team B wins the tie break.

[erikthebassist 41]

This is why total points should always be the tie breaker:

the only thing you can really control is the amount of points your team scores over the course of the year.... therefor, after records, I always make total points the tiebreaker.

jdon

I agree, I'm going to lobby for the rules change next year, and if they don't change it I'm out. Between that and worst to first waivers the league kinda sucks. I was team A by the way and I let it go, not worth blowing up everybody's inbox to have a big debate over it.

 

So I don't get the bye, oh well, my team has been hot for three weeks and seems to be getting stronger, I like my chances either way.

[erikthebassist 41]

Cool! It's like the LSAT all over again!

 

NFL Rules:

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

• Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).
• Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
• Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
• Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
• Strength of victory.
• Strength of schedule.
• Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
• Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
• Best net points in common games.
• Best net points in all games.
• Best net touchdowns in all games.
• Coin toss

Two Clubs

• Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
• Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
• Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
• Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
• Strength of victory.
• Strength of schedule.
• Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
• Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
• Best net points in common games.
• Best net points in all games.
• Best net touchdowns in all games.
• Coin toss

Seems to me Team B wins on the very first step of the rules for 3 or more clubs, namely, best win percentage. Team B wins the tie break.

 

That's what was ultimately decided.

[erikthebassist 41]

Thanks guys, enough people saw it from their POV that I had to relent, appreciate the speedy input

[thewrathofkuhn 40]

NFL.com sucks with their tie-breakers

 

You can customize it to whatever you want. We're on NFL.com and use total points.

 

Another thing to consider.

 

We reward the top scoring regular season team with our waiver add/drop fees. We charge $1 per add/drop with a max of 25 per team per season. That $25 is essentially an escrow with the balance of unused transactions rolled forward the following season. Top points usually winds up w/ about $150 to $200.

[posty 2,296]

the only thing you can really control is the amount of points your team scores over the course of the year....

You have no control over that either...

[erikthebassist 41]

You have no control over that either...

What is it exactly then that you think you do have control over?

[nobody 2,031]

I like all-play record as the 1st tie breaker. Total points rewards teams that have a few really great weeks and are otherwise not average. All-play record shows which teams are really better over the long haul.

[chroniciguana 13]

I like all-play record as the 1st tie breaker. Total points rewards teams that have a few really great weeks and are otherwise not average. All-play record shows which teams are really better over the long haul.

In online-style leagues where you have random and anonymous owners, agreed. In a league among friends who see each other almost every day, creating divisional rivalries that put the emphasis on H2H play sorta adds to the whole trash talk, competitive thing and gives these games a little more importance and a lot more interest. Particularly when you play your division rivals twice, at the beginning of the season and at its conclusion. But there is a mathematical minefield hidden in H2H as a multi-team, multi-slot tiebreaker. It's too migraine inducing to attempt to explain in a forum post, however. But, as we learned, it's there.

[brotherbock 349]

I like all-play record as the 1st tie breaker. Total points rewards teams that have a few really great weeks and are otherwise not average. All-play record shows which teams are really better over the long haul.

What about the argument that record can reflect one consistently high scoring team getting beat each week by everyone's best week of the season? A lot of people here will want to point that out.

[posty 2,296]

What is it exactly then that you think you do have control over?

My life...

[Beyond Chaos 75]

This is why total points should always be the tie breaker:

the only thing you can really control is the amount of points your team scores over the course of the year.... therefor, after records, I always make total points the tiebreaker.

jdon

Agree, total points in ff.

[rotisserieking 34]

I think first and foremost this should have been written into the rules. To avoid this situation here is what I have in my league rules:

 

In case of a tie-breaker to determine playoff seedings, the tie breakers will be in the following order: 1) Head to Head Winner, 2) Total Points Regular Season, and 3) Highest Point Total for One Week during regular season. If there is a tie game in the playoffs, the winner will be decided by the team with the highest scoring bench, not including any players on IR, for that week.

 

In the case of more than 2 teams involved in a tie-breaker, if 1 team is undefeated against the other teams in the tie-breaker, then that team shall be receive the highest ranking. Then, eliminating that team, if 1 team is undefeated against the remaining teams in the tie-breaker, then that team shall receive the next highest ranking. If no team has gone undefeated against the teams involved in the tie-breaker, then tie-breaker #2 shall be used.

 

This has eliminated all discrepancies - never had an issue in 10 years. :fingerscrossed:

[posty 2,296]

If there is a tie game in the playoffs, the winner will be decided by the team with the highest scoring bench, not including any players on IR, for that week.

Wow, this is really a stupid rule...

[brotherbock 349]

If there is a tie game in the playoffs, the winner will be decided by the team with the highest scoring bench, not including any players on IR, for that week.

 

 

 

Not sure what this means. If they are on IR, they wouldn't make a difference anyway, because they aren't playing and have no points. So why even mention that you aren't including them in bench scoring? Go ahead and include their zero points in the total

[nobody 2,031]

What about the argument that record can reflect one consistently high scoring team getting beat each week by everyone's best week of the season? A lot of people here will want to point that out.

 

I don't think you know what all-play record means

[brotherbock 349]

 

I don't think you know what all-play record means

 

Oops, just misread you. My bad. I agree with you then

[Quickolas1 80]

Why wouldn't you just say team B has the best win percentage therefore they win the tiebreak?

 

The NFL eliminates the worst team in each run through of the criteria. So C would be eliminated based on H2H%.

Then start over from the beginning between A and B. They split H2H and then A has points.

Logically it makes sense... B having a 2-1 record unfairly penalizes Team A in your assumed method due to unequal games.

 

Law posted this part:

 

NFL Rules:

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

 

Now I'm not saying this makes sense for fantasy... but if you're mimicking the NFL, Team A would get the spot.

 

It only took me 7 years of playing in a 32 team league that mimics the NFL to memorize the entire NFL method.

 

Will have one spot available next year BTW! Salary cap, auction, high entry cost, trading starts in March. Fanatics only!

[brotherbock 349]

 

Logically it makes sense... B having a 2-1 record unfairly penalizes Team A in your assumed method due to unequal games.

 

 

Devil's advocate here, I have absolutely zero stake in this. But why is that 'logical'? If they want a better record, win that extra game. Playing more games isn't 'better', therefore playing one more game--and losing it--shouldn't benefit you in any way.

 

Would it make the same sense if we were comparing a 13-2 vs. a 13-1 record? Or (in baseball maybe) a 33-2 vs a 33-1 record? Losing an extra game doesn't seem 'better' in any way.

 

Team A lost twice as many (or 'one more', whatever metric you want) games as Team B, right?

[Byrdman5 104]

Same thing happened to me a few years ago team A went 2-1, B 1-1 and C 1-2. Team C beat team B h2h and had more total points. I was team C and did not get the bye and lost the first round. If I got the bye I would have won the championship, FF sucks sometimes. I've been trying to lobby to change the tiebreaker to total points, but I don't think anyone cares XD. Well there have been 4 ppl for it and the rest rather play the luck because they suck at FF.

[plasma george 52]

This is why total points should always be the tie breaker:

the only thing you can really control is the amount of points your team scores over the course of the year.... therefor, after records, I always make total points the tiebreaker.

jdon

What he said

Points always !!!!!!

[thewrathofkuhn 40]

 

Devil's advocate here, I have absolutely zero stake in this. But why is that 'logical'? If they want a better record, win that extra game. Playing more games isn't 'better', therefore playing one more game--and losing it--shouldn't benefit you in any way.

 

Would it make the same sense if we were comparing a 13-2 vs. a 13-1 record? Or (in baseball maybe) a 33-2 vs a 33-1 record? Losing an extra game doesn't seem 'better' in any way.

 

Team A lost twice as many (or 'one more', whatever metric you want) games as Team B, right?

 

No. The overall records are the same but H2H records are different which is the tie-breaker. With an odd number of weeks on the schedule it's impossible (randomly generated anyway) to play each team in a 12 team league an equal number of times.

[chroniciguana 13]

 

The NFL eliminates the worst team in each run through of the criteria. So C would be eliminated based on H2H%.

Then start over from the beginning between A and B. They split H2H and then A has points.

Logically it makes sense ...

Unless it doesn't. C gets tossed. But what if my W-L, H2H record includes a win over C that initially put me a game up? And your W-L, H2H record includes a loss to C that otherwise put you a game down? By tossing our history against C, even though we've tossed C, we've rewritten our H2H history to create a numerical tie that previously didn't exist. Do C's H2H wins and losses disappear along with C? Or do we recognize that they happened, that they factored into the creation of the tie, and include them in the next run-through? If C's games are gone, I could theoretically go from 2-1 in H2H against your 1-2, we'd wind up tied and you'd possibly make it in on points - despite having an inferior H2H record if we had kept C's games in the equation. An argument could be made both ways. And either way, somebody is going to be convinced they were screwed. Now imagine five 7-7 teams in a H2H tiebreaker for two spots. Which is why we ditched H2H if a tie for a playoff spot or position involved more than two teams.

[brotherbock 349]

 

No. The overall records are the same but H2H records are different which is the tie-breaker. With an odd number of weeks on the schedule it's impossible (randomly generated anyway) to play each team in a 12 team league an equal number of times.

I know, but we've been limiting the part of the record we're concerned with. So I was talking about just that part. In that part, one team lost more games.

[Beyond Chaos 75]

Trying to use H2H record to decide tiebreakers in FF is not equivalent to the NFL. There is no defense (as in an ability to inhibit your opponent from scoring) in FF and in the NFL, teams in the division play each other an equal number of times. Unless it's set up so that everyone in the division plays each other an equal number of times, using h2h record to determine tiebreakers will often result in controversy. If this were a league I was in, I would find a new league or create one of my own. Others may like it. It is just my preference to be in leagues which I agree with the rules.