ESPN Page 2 Writer thinks

[lennie75 0]

Kobe's supporting staff couldn't win 55 games without him, not in a million years. Jordan's actually went out and did it.

 

Until people can acknowledge that that happened, Jordan had a terrific team around him, and he didn't win 6 titles by himself, any discussion about his accomplishments are more legend than anything else.

Ummm....wait a second...Kobe's team can't win 55 games w/ Kobe!!!

[DrJ 0]

Terrific? Livingston? Longley? Cartwright? Perdue? Myers? Wennington? Brown? Buechler?

Terrific = Pippen not Kukoc, not BJ Armstrong, not Horace Grant. You have to remember not many out of this terrific team were consistent scorers. Especially Rodman. Everytime Longley or Cartwritght got the ball it was an 80% chance they would blow the layup.

You are kidding me right? Now let's put up the list of hall of famers that Jordan and his terrific team put to bed during those championships.

 

1. Magic Johnson

2. Charles Barkley

3. Clyde Drexler

4. John Stockton

5. Karl Malone

 

And not to mention the HOF's that he and his "terrific" team had to defeat just to get to the championship.

 

The playoff battles alone were like Championships, especially against the Knicks. Terrific?

 

Some notable names Jordan and the terrifics had to face: I. Thomas, J. Dumars, V. Johnson, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Patrick Ewing, J. Starks, Terry Porter, Kevin Johnson, Tom Chambers, Dan Majerle. I am sure I missed some.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1994.html

 

You'll notice that this horrific supporting cast won 55 games and sent 3 players to the All Star game the year after Jordan retired. You'll also notice that they lost 4-3 against the team that represented the conference in the Finals, and that was thanks to the refs calling an imaginary foul against Pippen. Yep, the same Knicks that you're heralding as "A matchup of Championship proportions" were 1 phantom foul call away from losing to the Bulls without Michael Jordan.

 

It's worth noting that Pippen finished like 3rd or 4th in the MVP voting that season, and was pretty much undisputably the best non center in the league.

 

Yeah, Jordan just had garbage to play with.

[Snoopy1 0]

so being #1 is the same as being #50 on that list?

 

Pippen will never get the credit he deserves, he will always be underated.

 

 

They didn't list them in any order.

 

Whatever, you think a guy who's a lock to make the HOF & top 50 of All-time is underrated...

[wiffleball 4,797]

I will always consider Jordan to be the best that every played that position. There was a lot more to Jordan than just incredible numbers. He had a grace, a fluidity, that something - that hasn't been in the NBA since he left. You just knew that no matter what the D brought to him, he would find a way to make it happen. Kobe gets his points, but he just doesn't have the moves, the style, the heart that Jordan had. Hell, Jordan could do more 3 feet off the court than most guys could on the ground.

 

Man, those were some great years in the NBA. Now it's just a GD pick-up game straight outta Compton.

[parrot 789]

I'm one person, who thinks he's overated, I could be wrong.

So you've gone from "a focking joke" to "I could be wrong"?

 

It seems most of the sporting public & NBA feel the other way.

 

How is he underated?

A lot of the sporting public only remembers Jordan from those teams and think just the way you do about Pippen. That's how he is underrated. HTH.

[DrJ 0]

Ummm....wait a second...Kobe's team can't win 55 games w/ Kobe!!!

 

And Jordan wouldn't be able to win 55 games with them either - he never won 55 without Scottie Pippen.

[KSB2424 3,174]

Pippen was the best player on the team during that 2nd run.

 

Complete and utter hogwash.

[parrot 789]

Do you think shaq would even have sniffed the finals without Kobe????

Again, THAT WAS NOT MY POINT. My point was if you're going to compare supporting casts, you should compare those that actually won championships, not the Bulls that won multiple Championships and the current cast of Lakers that haven't sniffed one.

[rallo 138]

the main thing that this article isn't talking about is CLUTCH...

 

jordan hit the big shots in the big games, shake-down on byron russel... pullup over eloh (sp?)

 

if memory serves me correct robert horry hit most of the clutch shots for the lakers during their title runs... sure you can say kobe was 'young' but i mean jordan ALWAYS hit the shot when it counted. I'm not saying kobe isn't clutch... but do you consider him the greatest finisher of all time??? nope

 

oh... and he gets "the a-rod treatment" because kobe comes off as an impersonable douche...

 

jordan was not only the better player... he was more charismatic...

[KSB2424 3,174]

He's not as quick as Jordan I, though his height advantage does make up for that a bit.

 

Kobe and MJ are both 6'6"

[Churchill610 0]

Jemele Hill knows as much about basketball as davebg knows about a healthy marriage.

[Black59Razor 0]

Jordan II in 1996 was 33, 97' = 34, 98' = 35

 

 

I think you can only compare Jordan I to Kobe right now. 1992 Jordan 29: Kobe 29. Only time will tell. It was put in Jordan's head at an early age that he will not win a championship (What he wanted most) if he doesn't get his team involved and stop gunning. We all know he could have scored astronomical points. 6 rings is 6 rings. You can say Pippen this and Pippen that. I hear Jordan would have 0 rings without him. No one would have even considered Pippen as anything if it wasn't for Jordan. Mike made Scottie not the other way around. Shaq, Horry, and Fisher were a vital part of those championships. It is almost like a reverse career for the to of them. Jordan won late. Kobe won early. We will see what happens.

[DrJ 0]

Complete and udder hogwash.

 

The only thing Pippen didn't do as well was scoring, and it's not like he was a slouch, it just that so much of the offense went through Jordan again. He was a better rebounder, better passer, better shot blocker, a better overall defender, and a far more well rounded and complete player than Jordan was during that 2nd run.

[wiffleball 4,797]

Kobme doesn't get the respek he deserves over Jordan because he's black. It's a shame really.

[KSB2424 3,174]

And Jordan wouldn't be able to win 55 games with them either - he never won 55 without Scottie Pippen.

 

The 87-88' Bulls won over 50 games that season as well as the first round series of the playoffs. Scottie Pippin was a seldom used Rookie that averaged 7 points per game that year. Sam Vincent was the second leading scorer on that team. Oh yeah, the coach was Doug Collins.

[DrJ 0]

The 87-88' Bulls won over 50 games that season as well as the first round series of the playoffs. Scottie Pippin was a seldom used Rookie that averaged 7 points per game that year. Sam Vincent was the second leading scorer on that team. Oh yeah, the coach was Doug Collins.

 

They didn't win over 50 games, they won 50 games. Which isn't 55, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

But let's go with your number here anyways. Kobe's team is on pace to win 45, in a superior conference to the one that Jordan played in in 87-88. Only 4 teams out of 12 in the east that year won more than 42 games and as a whole the East went 426-438. Kobe plays in a conference that is 553-490. Just a tad bit of difference in levels of competition they're facing on a nightly basis.

 

And Jordan's supporting cast that season was no worse than what Kobe has this year. Oakley was as good as any player Kobe has (Odom) and then there's a few solid role players beyond that on each.

 

Next...?

 

Jordan never won 55 without Pippen.   Pippen won 55 without Jordan.

[KSB2424 3,174]

And Jordan's supporting cast that season was no worse than what Kobe has this year.

Next...?

 

Is the Head Coach not part of the supporting cast?

 

HOF Phil Jackson > Doug Collins

Lamar Odom > Sam Vincent

Young Will Bynum = Young Charles Oakley

 

 

HTH

[DrJ 0]

Young Will Bynm = Young Charles Oakly

 

HTH

 

You're insane.

 

Charles Oakley was a 12.4 PPG, 13.0 RPG player that year. He was a rebounding MACHINE. No player on the Lakers outside of Kobe is better than that.

 

Vincent averaged 8.4 assists per game. The entire Lakers team averages 22.1.

[Black59Razor 0]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1994.html

 

You'll notice that this horrific supporting cast won 55 games and sent 3 players to the All Star game the year after Jordan retired. You'll also notice that they lost 4-3 against the team that represented the conference in the Finals, and that was thanks to the refs calling an imaginary foul against Pippen. Yep, the same Knicks that you're heralding as "A matchup of Championship proportions" were 1 phantom foul call away from losing to the Bulls without Michael Jordan.

 

It's worth noting that Pippen finished like 3rd or 4th in the MVP voting that season, and was pretty much undisputably the best non center in the league.

 

Yeah, Jordan just had garbage to play with.

 

I want to point out that, I wanted the Bulls to win. I like Scottie for his effeorts, I did not want him to fail. But I am glad he did because of this conversation. That being said, Phantom call or not they lost and no rings. We will never know what Jordan would have done with that same team without Scottie. #1 I can guarantee that phantom call would not even be in question because they would have never gone against Jordan. Right now I am mad at myself for even going against Scottie. But when he is said to be the only reason Jordan has rings that is ludicrous.

 

Now for the 3rd and 4th MVP BS that you are pointing out. #1 is what counts, not the runner-ups. I am sure you know this, but that was a reach. You cannot even remember what place he came in. That just about sums it up there.

 

Pick one player you would have wanted on your team to step on the floor: Myers, Longley, Perdue, Brown, Buechler, Livingston, Cartwright.

 

Pippen, Kukoc, Paxson, Kerr could score. Only Kerr and Paxson were shooters. Hodges sometimes. Pippen bricked his shots until he could find the range so he played a masterful defense and got easy fast break layups. Kukoc was inconsistent. Grant played well but not dominatingly well. So maybe not trash but certainly not diamonds. Those teams didn't even have a real center. Cartwright was garbage. Longley? Please! They used Rodman the final years to play the other team's center.

[KSB2424 3,174]

You're insane.

 

Charles Oakley was a 12.4 PPG, 13.0 RPG player that year. He was a rebounding MACHINE. No player on the Lakers outside of Kobe is better than that.

 

Vincent averaged 8.4 assists per game. The entire Lakers team averages 22.1.

 

So what about the head coaches? I guess Doug Collins was underrated too.

 

So you are saying that Sam Vincent at 13 pts 8 assists is better than Lamar Odom at 17 points 9.7 rebounds and 5 assists.

[DrJ 0]

I want to point out that, I wanted the Bulls to win. I like Scottie for his effeorts, I did not want him to fail. But I am glad he did because of this conversation. That being said, Phantom call or not they lost and no rings. We will never know what Jordan would have done with that same team without Scottie. #1 I can guarantee that phantom call would not even be in question because they would have never gone against Jordan. Right now I am mad at myself for even going against Scottie. But when he is said to be the only reason Jordan has rings that is ludicrous.

 

Now for the 3rd and 4th MVP BS that you are pointing out. #1 is what counts, not the runner-ups. I am sure you know this, but that was a reach. You cannot even remember what place he came in. That just about sums it up there.

 

Pick one player you would have wanted on your team to step on the floor: Myers, Longley, Perdue, Brown, Buechler, Livingston, Cartwright.

 

Pippen, Kukoc, Paxson, Kerr could score. Only Kerr and Paxson were shooters. Hodges sometimes. Pippen bricked his shots until he could find the range so he played a masterful defense and got easy fast break layups. Kukoc was inconsistent. Grant played well but not dominatingly well. So maybe not trash but certainly not diamonds. Those teams didn't even have a real center. Cartwright was garbage. Longley? Please! They used Rodman the final years to play the other team's center.

 

No, it's really not - if you put Jordan with Lamar Odom and a bunch of scrubs he isn't winning jack.

 

Jordan never won 55 games without Scottie Pippen. Pippen won 55 games without Michael Jordan. To act like Jordan was this omnipotent prescence on the basketball court and that players around him, players capable of winning 55 games in their own right, had nothing to do with the fact that he got 6 titles is ridiculous.

 

If you're going to act like Jordan won 6 titles by himself, then you're leaving reality and venturing into the land of folklore. Something that not Kobe Bryant, or any other mere human, is capable of competing with.

 

So what about the head coaches? I guess Doug Collins was underrated too.

 

So you are saying that Sam Vincent at 13 pts 8 assists is better than Lamar Odom at 17 points 9.7 rebounds and 5 assists.

 

No, I said that Oakley was better than Odom. I thought that was pretty clear when I said that he was better than any player on the Lakers besides Kobe. Try and follow here, it's not rocket science.

 

And Vincent is comparable/better than any player beyond Odom.

 

As for Phil Jackson - how many titles has he won without Jordan/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe?

 

It's pretty clear that you can't give Kobe's team any decisive advantage over the one that Jordan had to work with that year. And yet, he's still on pace to put up a comparable record in a FAR more difficult division.

[KSB2424 3,174]

And yes, I think Phil Jackson is overrated too. Why can't he win titles without Jordan/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe?

 

The one year that Kobe played without Shaq AND Phil Jackson, the Lakers won 34 games.

[DrJ 0]

The one year that Kobe played without Shaq AND Phil Jackson, the Lakers won 34 games.

 

So, you like to ignore the stuff that discredits your argument and instead go in a different circle?

 

Kobe Bryant was injured and played 66 games that season. Lamar Odom was injured and played 64 games that season. You think that factored in at all? Or do you want to compare more apples and oranges since logic is again slapping you in the face here?

[KSB2424 3,174]

No, it's really not - if you put Jordan with Lamar Odom and a bunch of scrubs he isn't winning jack.

 

Jordan never won 55 games without Scottie Pippen. Pippen won 55 games without Michael Jordan. To act like Jordan was this omnipotent prescence on the basketball court and that players around him, players capable of winning 55 games in their own right, had nothing to do with the fact that he got 6 titles is ridiculous.

 

If you're going to act like Jordan won 6 titles by himself, then you're leaving reality and venturing into the land of folklore. Something that not Kobe Bryant, or any other mere human, is capable of competing with.

No, I said that Oakley was better than Odom. I thought that was pretty clear when I said that he was better than any player on the Lakers besides Kobe. Try and follow here, it's not rocket science.

 

And Vincent is comparable/better than any player beyond Odom.

 

As for Phil Jackson - how many titles has he won without Jordan/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe?

 

It's pretty clear that you can't give Kobe's team any decisive advantage over the one that Jordan had to work with that year. And yet, he's still on pace to put up a comparable record in a FAR more difficult division.

 

It is pretty clear that you are saying that announcer Doug Collins is equal to Hall of Fame Coach Phil Jackson.

 

You earlier said that Kobe was taller than Jordan. They are both 6'6"

 

The Lakers are 38-32. They would have to win out, 12 straight to win 50 games this year. I bet they win closer to 44 than 50.

 

Clearly you have no focking clue what the hell you are talking about.

[DrJ 0]

It is pretty clear that you are saying that announcer Doug Collins is equal to Hall of Fame Coach Phil Jackson.

 

You earlier said that Kobe was taller than Jordan. They are both 6'6"

 

The Lakers are 38-32. They would have to win out, 12 straight to win 50 games this year. I bet they win closer to 44 than 50.

 

Clearly you have no focking clue what the hell you are talking about.

 

I said on pace for 45 - and noted that it is comparable to Jordan's 50 because of the strength of the Western conference this season in comparison to the ENTIRELY LAME Eastern conference in the year you are referencing.

 

Can you not read, are you focking retarded?

[KSB2424 3,174]

I said on pace for 45 - and noted that it is comparable to Jordan's 50 because of the strength of the Western conference this season in comparison to the ENTIRELY LAME Eastern conference in the year you are referencing.

 

Can you not read, are you focking retarded?

 

Link to post where you stated "ON PACE FOR 45 WINS"?

[DrJ 0]

Link to post where you stated "ON PACE FOR 45 WINS"?

 

Post #56 retard. Learn to read.

[KSB2424 3,174]

So lemme get this straight:

 

45 wins = 50 wins

6'6" > 6'6"

Doug Collins = Phil Jackson

 

[DrJ 0]

So lemme get this straight:

 

45 wins = 50 wins

6'6" > 6'6"

Doug Collins = Phil Jackson

 

 

45 wins is comparable to 50 wins when you play in a hard conference with a lot of hard teams vs a crappy conference with losing teams.

 

I thought Bryant was listed at 6'7", my bad.

 

Oakley > Odom

 

Vincent > next best Laker player.

 

Jackson > Collins, but still overrated.

 

You = retarded and can't read, and are getting slapped around.

 

HTH.

[KSB2424 3,174]

45 wins is comparable to 50 wins when you play in a hard conference with a lot of hard teams vs a crappy conference with losing teams.

 

So the 55 wins that Scottie (with Jackson) won in the Eastern Conference is really worth how many wins in the Dr.J universe? 48 - 49? If we are going to pro-rate team wins based on conference strength, should you not do it for all your assertions?

[DrJ 0]

So the 55 wins that Scottie (with Jackson) won in the Eastern Conference is really worth how many wins in the Dr.J universe? 48 - 49? If we are going to pro-rate team wins based on conference strength, should you not do it for all your assertions?

 

The Eastern was 562-586 that season (.489) so it'd be > than Jordan's 50 in the .493 Eastern Conference. Plus, Scottie didn't even have himself as part of the supporting cast, like Jordan did.

 

None of that really matters though - even if it were 48 or 49 wins that still doesn't help your case. You want to say Jordan had nothing to work with and pin the 6 titles entirely on him, yet there is no doubt is was a top playoff team without him on the roster and arguably better than the Lakers team with Kobe.

 

HTH.

[parrot 789]

Kobe's team is on pace to win 45, in a superior conference to the one that Jordan played in in 87-88. Only 4 teams out of 12 in the east that year won more than 42 games and as a whole the East went 426-438. Kobe plays in a conference that is 553-490. Just a tad bit of difference in levels of competition they're facing on a nightly basis.

426-438? 12 teams? Was that the strike shortened season where they played only 72 games?

 

 

There were only eleven teams in the Eastern Conference in 87-88. Their cumulative record was 464-438, for a winning percentage of .514. Four teams won more than forty two games and two more won 42 games, thus six of eleven teams - 54% - finished at .500 or above.

 

Currently the Western Conference is 553-490 for a winning percentage of .531 and 8 of 15 teams - 53% - are below .500.

 

Yes, the winning percentage is higher, but marginally so. It's not quite the slam-dunk you make it out to be.

 

Also, the Bulls played in the Central Division which had a .561 winning percentage, with five of six teams finishing over .500. The Lakers Pacific Division has a cumulative winning percentage of .535 and three of the five teams are below .500.

[CantTouchThis 23]

What he just did was absolutely incredible. He is the NBA's best player right now, honestly, anyone saying anything else just has a biased against him.

 

However, comparing him to the great one, nope. If, that is a huge IF, Kobe wins one without Shaq, then you might be able to make a comparison to MJ. But, MJ would still win that argument. Kobe is probably a top 20 player of all time right now, by the time he retires, he will be top 10-12, if he wins one, top 6-8. However, he will never be better than who is #1 on that list, and that is the one and only MJ.

[JT 137]

STOP SAYING BAD THINGS ABOUT DOUG COLLINS!!!

[jerryskids 7,090]

He is the NBA's best player right now, honestly, anyone saying anything else just has a biased against him.

I admit to being biased against him, since I am a Suns fan. That being said, here is maybe a way to determine the "best" player. You get to pick one player, and then randomly pick a starter from any NBA team out of a hat for the other 4 players. Who would you pick? I'd pick Nash.

[TylerRoseFan 16]

Players I'd want on my team.

 

 

Hakeem>Kobe

Barkley>Kobe

Bird>Kobe

Magic>Kobe

Jordan>Kobe

Nash>Kobe

Etc....

[JT 137]

Players I'd want on my team.

Hakeem>Kobe

Barkley>Kobe

Bird>Kobe

Magic>Kobe

Jordan>Kobe

Nash>Kobe

Etc....

 

Ok, so I assume you're taking Hakeem in that three-four year period where he was the most dominant big guy in the game. Then you've named arguably the three best players of the last 30 years.

 

I'm a big Chuck fan. Great guy, accomplishments on the court made even more remarkable by the fact that he's about 6'3". But what teammate did he ever make better? And championships...

 

Nash is having a couple of years for the ages. But he's also in a 'perfect storm' in Phoenix: a coach committed to a style that nobody bought into in the NBA prior to a couple years ago (for that matter, who besides Phoenix is buying into it now?); personnel ideally suited to playing that style; and a player at the peak of is skills. But let's put Nash on the Cavs instead of LeBron and see what they're doing with those guys to run the floor.

 

People will always dog Kobe. Hell, people find reasons to dog Wilt, for chrissake. But the simple fact remains that in all the years, with all the players, and all the games, nobody else has produced like he has lately. You can use all kinds of different criteria, but I guarantee if you ask NBA GM's who the leagues best player is, Kobe wins with negligible debate.

[Fumbleweed 555]

What he just did was absolutely incredible. He is the NBA's best player right now, honestly, anyone saying anything else just has a biased against him.

 

However, comparing him to the great one, nope. If, that is a huge IF, Kobe wins one without Shaq, then you might be able to make a comparison to MJ. But, MJ would still win that argument. Kobe is probably a top 20 player of all time right now, by the time he retires, he will be top 10-12, if he wins one, top 6-8. However, he will never be better than who is #1 on that list, and that is the one and only MJ.

 

You know, it is possible for someone to be "better" than Jordan. To say there will never be someone better really can't be said. How can anyone say that?

[t.j 35]

It's very difficult to compare to players objectively, even when they played the same position. Different teams, different eras, different roles, etc. But there are a few stats that you can probably use to objectively compare certain aspects of Jordan's and Bryant's games. They aren't huge but it is interesting:

 

Career Free Throw Shooting

Jordan .835

Bryant .838

Note: Jordan started off as about an .850 FT shooter for his first 7 seasons but then actually declined during the time he was winning championships, down to about .832 during that period. Jordan's career percentage took a slight hit when he returned as an old man with the Wizards. Kobe's FT seems to have improved, he shot .850 last year and is on pace to shoot a career-best .869 this year. All in all, very even. (Both are terrific free throw shooters, I looked up Magic Johnson as a reference, I thought Magic was up around .900 for his career, but actually he was just above MJ and KB at .848)

 

Blocks

Jordan 0.83 bpg

Bryant 0.59 bpg

I could be wrong but it seems to me like there isn't likely a reason based on circumstance that one of these guys would have more blocks than the other. It seems that Jordan was a significantly better shot-blocker.

 

Free throw shooting and shot-blocking ability are not all that important in the big picture, but I think they are numbers that are easy to compare and somewhat interesting to look at.

 

Speaking in general terms, I am not really sure why the author thinks Kobe is as good of a defender as Jordan was.

[t.j 35]

Also, this is somewhat less of a direct of a measurement, as it affected by shot selection and a whole host of other things, but I wanted to add it to the discussion anyway...

 

One of the great thinkers of FFT invented a statistic a year ago, and called it Shooting Efficiency. It is calculated as

SE = (FGM + 3ptFGM*1.5)/(FGA + 3ptFGA).

As you can see, it is similar to field goal percentage but with an adjustment on 3 point shots.

 

Jordan's career SE = 0.496

Bryant's career SE = 0.461

 

I am hoping that someday, the inventor of Shooting Efficiency will find a way to factor in free throws to the shooting efficiency equation, creating an even greater stat, USE (Ultimate Shooting Efficiency)!