So, what's the most legit fighting discipline

[Giants Fan 85]

Got in a REAL fight with the state wrestling champ ... guys nickname in the frat was "Torso" because he was all upper body ... and still 6' 3". Yeah, wiffed, and he broke my nose and spun me around, all in about 2 seonds ... fight over.

 

Wanna learn that move, focker punched me in the face, turned me around and pushed me away before I could react. Claimed "wrestling move" later.

 

FYI: My reaction was collapse to the floor and catch the blood from my nose in my hand. And he walked up next to me and punched me in the temple.

 

But that's when I first broke my nose ... first time. Busted, bleeding nose before ... BROKEN, whole new animal.

[Giants Fan 85]

I got a pretty good Full Nelson too. Fast reaction time. One time, neighborhood bar in NYC ... fight broke out, and I got one guy in my Full Nelson ... literally picked him up off the ground, carried him to the doorway and THREW HIM OUT of the bar. Literally.

 

Once I got ya ... your best bet ... is to take the face plant ... but I will make you pay. I'll lift you up and plant your face right to the floor. Then you can wrestle me on the ground.

 

Otherwise ... you do what I say!

[dcOne 2]

You told the "Torso" story a while back.

 

Got anything new?

[Giants Fan 85]

Well that was the worst anyone ever kicked my ass. Wasn't boxing at all!

 

 

How about the "Vatos" story? "Kick his ass Freddie!" .... you know that one?

[Giants Fan 85]

It was my second week at Tucson High. We were given extra time to change into whatever proper P.E. wear was. Time for me to smoke a cig in the parking lot. Stroke my mohawk.

 

So, this Mexican kid rides up and does a "power slide" on his BMX bike, spraying me with dirt and I get up, and he comes right up and gets in my face. I was a bit of a nerd, I admit, SEVERAL textbooks in my backpack, and I walked away. I remember thinking to myself, "I'm walking away, but if he hit's me, I gotta fight." Sure enough, he tries to punch me, and I swung around, weight of my books, knocked him out for about 15 seconds.

 

By that time, a couple lowriders had pulled up (it was 1986) and I remember they were saying things like, "Kick his ass Freddie!". Looks like I was part of a gang initiation. So this stocky Mexican kid comes at me ... I got reach on him for days ... I say, "You saw what I did to your friend! You sure you want this?" It's no contest, but I am keeping my distance. The BMX guy gets up, and I can see that his eye no longer has any white left in it. All red. I busted him up good with 1 punch.

 

By that time my P.E. class had gathered around ... some "Monitors", aka security where running towards it and my P.E. class was treating me like a hero. I was unscathed. "What happened?" said security and I said, "I dunno ... I guess those 2 Mexican guys got in a fight."

 

 

So, I figuerd I was dead ... but it turns out they were Vatos from Cholla ... a rival High School and nobody ever messed with me again.

[famousb 11]

ok, i'll play...

 

REAL wrestling is actual a BAD thing to learn if you want to learn how to really fight... "REAL" wrestling has way too many restrictions and rules - plus it teaches you stupid things like trying to lay face down when you hit the ground... i'll tell you what, i'd love it if i a guy i got in a fight with decided to roll to his stomach to not give up back points...

 

if you like wrestling/grappling type stuff, Brazilian Ju-jitsu incorporates alot of that type stuff (refer to the Gracies of the old UFC).

Aikido is what you see Steven Segal do... lots of using your opponents momentum against them...

Small-circle ju-jitsu is really small joint minapulation, wrist lock and arm bar type of stuff... both it and Aikido don't incorporate alot of strikes...

There's all sorts of Karate styles, but in general, the American-ized styles that focus on tournaments and point fighting DO NOT teach you how to fight in real life situations - they'll improve your fighting ability, but they also teach you to strike once and stop because you just scored a point...

Tae Kwon Do is pretty much the same way.

There are non-sport styles of both Karate and Tae Kwon Do that are much better suited for really learning to fight and defend yourself...

Kung Fu is generally a much more fluid fighting style, and it's what you see Jet Li use. Instead of the hard strikes of a Karate, it uses quicker strikes and also incorporates alot of the joint locks of small circle ju-jitsu. It requires alot of speed and flexibility.

Bruce Lee created his own style out of different Kung Fu styles, i can't remember the name off the top of my head, but it defintely kicks some ass...

You also have all of the less known type of fighting styles from smaller regions... there are Russian & Arabic styles that i can't think of off the top of my head either... but they are pretty tough.

There are Philipino styles, most of which originated as espada e daga (sp?) - but translates into Sword & Dagger (or machete and knife). Most typically now use sticks instead... you'll see escrima, arnis, kali, and balintawak as the major forms of Philipino stick fighting styles, all of which start you fighting w/ either one or two rattan sticks and also incorporate small circle ju jitsu & aikido stuff...

 

there are tons more styles too, and most schools incorporate many different styles...

basically, to answer the question of which really teaches you how to fight the best is actually the original premise of the UFC - to put all different styles in a ring against each other to see which one dominated... that kind of spun off into it's own "style" and lost the original point of the contests.

bottom line though, the best style is the one that works best for you... find a good school and a good teacher, and a style that works for your body style and abilities and you'll be off to a great start. But if you want to really learn how to fight, avoid schools that focus on point fighting tournaments, and also ones that advertise you'll be a black belt fast... it shouldn't matter about belt color, cause your belt won't defend you in a fight. A good school will teach you that you always have room to grow and learn, and even as you approach the end of your journey in that particular discipline that there are other disciplines and styles that you should learn to complement everything you have already learned...

 

biggest thing is just getting started...

[Giants Fan 85]

Actually, I've only used my wrestling knowledge to STOP fights.

 

But I still say ... a good wrestler can still kick your ass. Trust me.

[famousb 11]

Actually, I've only used my wrestling knowledge to STOP fights.

 

But I still say ... a good wrestler can still kick your ass. Trust me.

 

i'll agree a good wrestler can kick alot of people's asses - but that's more because they are in shape and understand body control and positioning...

you put a wrestler in the "octagon" w/ someone that trained in small joint locks, striking, and submission holds and that wrestler's lack of real fighting ability will start to show pretty quick.

additionally, if you incorporate the potential for 'weapons' into the fight and the wrestler is even at a MUCH worse disadvantage compared to someone who has trained w/ various types of weapons... and i'll tell you this, if/when i'm ever confronted w/ the situation of a possible skermish, first thing i do is look for something that can be used as a weapon.

[Giants Fan 85]

Mike Tyson would still take any of thse UFC guys out ... and I don't think he can pull a George Foreman and win the heavyweight championship at 40.

 

Mike Tyson in his prime? Fuggedaboudit!

[famousb 11]

Mike Tyson would still take any of thse UFC guys out ... and I don't think he can pull a George Foreman and win the heavyweight championship at 40.

 

Mike Tyson in his prime? Fuggedaboudit!

again, i think that's another yes & no scenario...

Mike Tyson could knock just about any mofo out in his prime w/ the right punch... but if a good Braz. JJ guy got inside on him and avoided his punches, Tyson could be in trouble because he doesn't have training on how to fight on the ground and in close quarters... if he can use his legs and hips to help throw those punches, he's not getting 1/2 the power behind them and he's also going to put himself in some precarious situations by putting his arms out there to get broken....

[dcOne 2]

i'll agree a good wrestler can kick alot of people's asses - but that's more because they are in shape and understand body control and positioning...

you put a wrestler in the "octagon" w/ someone that trained in small joint locks, striking, and submission holds and that wrestler's lack of real fighting ability will start to show pretty quick.

 

 

(If I am interpreting what you wrote--do you mean an "mma wrestler" or a pure wrestler right off the mat , with no MMA experience? I am assuming you mean an MMA wrestlers?)

 

You're wrong, wrong, wrong when it comes to the "octagon". Obviously you know very little about MMA, more specifically the UFC, when you make a comments like that.

 

It's been proven (mma records, plus a majority consensus/opinion), that wrestlers fair better than anyone in MMA.

1.) They can control the match--and take it to the ground when they want. If you have a "striker" whose objective is "KO his wrestler opponent before he gets taken down", it's possible, but it's unlikely. If a wrestler's objective is to take the striker down before he get's KO'd, that's much easier.

2.) The good wrestlers have been wrestling for 15+ years. Because it is/was a US sport taught in the public school systems. People who call themselves "strikers" can try to learn "wrestling", but they will NEVER catch up to those that have been doing it all their lives. The wrestlers don't need to "catch" up to the strikers. They don't need to be great while standing. You take someone down, and now you've a.) negated their primary skill, b.) only need average or less striking to pound them while you have them on the ground.

 

MOST of the top guys in the UFC are wrestlers.

Liddell

Jackson

Hughes

Sherk

Henderson

Lindland

Koscheck

Diego Sanchez

Couture

 

 

Wrestlers are becoming hated in MMA more and more, 1.) sometimes boring 2.) beat the "exciting guys".

People want toe to toe stand there and swing wildly bloody matches.

 

As far as weapons. Meh. Stupid part of the discussion.

[RLLD 4,230]

[MikeVick]Dog fighting[/MikeVick]

[rallo 136]

(If I am interpreting what you wrote--do you mean an "mma wrestler" or a pure wrestler right off the mat , with no MMA experience? I am assuming you mean an MMA wrestlers?)

 

You're wrong, wrong, wrong when it comes to the "octagon". Obviously you know very little about MMA, more specifically the UFC, when you make a comments like that.

 

It's been proven (mma records, plus a majority consensus/opinion), that wrestlers fair better than anyone in MMA.

1.) They can control the match--and take it to the ground when they want. If you have a "striker" whose objective is "KO his wrestler opponent before he gets taken down", it's possible, but it's unlikely. If a wrestler's objective is to take the striker down before he get's KO'd, that's much easier.

2.) The good wrestlers have been wrestling for 15+ years. Because it is/was a US sport taught in the public school systems. People who call themselves "strikers" can try to learn "wrestling", but they will NEVER catch up to those that have been doing it all their lives. The wrestlers don't need to "catch" up to the strikers. They don't need to be great while standing. You take someone down, and now you've a.) negated their primary skill, b.) only need average or less striking to pound them while you have them on the ground.

 

MOST of the top guys in the UFC are wrestlers.

Liddell

Jackson

Hughes

Sherk

Henderson

Lindland

Koscheck

Diego Sanchez

Couture

Wrestlers are becoming hated in MMA more and more, 1.) sometimes boring 2.) beat the "exciting guys".

People want toe to toe stand there and swing wildly bloody matches.

 

As far as weapons. Meh. Stupid part of the discussion.

 

agreed... rampage is an excellent wrestler... probably why he's on top of the sport right now...

 

this would probably never happen... but i'd love to see cael sanderson try to step into mma... i bet if he spent a couple years training he could step right in and be unbelievable

[Ron Paul for President 2008 0]

Got in a REAL fight with the state wrestling champ ... guys nickname in the frat was "Torso" because he was all upper body ... and still 6' 3". Yeah, wiffed, and he broke my nose and spun me around, all in about 2 seonds ... fight over.

 

Wanna learn that move, focker punched me in the face, turned me around and pushed me away before I could react. Claimed "wrestling move" later.

 

FYI: My reaction was collapse to the floor and catch the blood from my nose in my hand. And he walked up next to me and punched me in the temple.

 

But that's when I first broke my nose ... first time. Busted, bleeding nose before ... BROKEN, whole new animal.

 

Why would you fight a frat boy nicknamed "torso", nothing good can ever come of that....

 

althought I'm willing bet you are white, so you have no fighting skills...torso I'm sure was white to or he would not have stopped with a punch to the temple he would have continued pounding away while yelling, "Breath baby breath...Breath Baby breath"

 

That being said, I'd be willing to bet any black guy over the age of 15 could have handed "torso" his assss....black guys are just better fighters...even untrained black guys can whip trained white guys's assses

[dcOne 2]

agreed... rampage is an excellent wrestler... probably why he's on top of the sport right now...

 

this would probably never happen... but i'd love to see cael sanderson try to step into mma... i bet if he spent a couple years training he could step right in and be unbelievable

 

I left out Ortiz and Evans.

 

Oh...and everyone always considered Liddell a "striker". He was, err...sort of. He won with it, because he was also a good wrestlers, he could stuff almost everyone's takedown attempts on him. So, he'd throw punches, hope to land a haymaker, then avoid a takedown, then throw some more punches, etc...til finally, he caught the guy.

 

Rampage is just a bad matchup for Liddell. He's a better wrestler, and it appears he's a better striker. So, Liddell was left with very little game plan. From what I saw, he could fight Rampage 10 times and never win one. Liddell could win the title again, but only if Jackson loses it first and he gets a shot at someone that is a better matchup for him, IMO.

 

 

black guys are just better fighters...even untrained black guys can whip trained white guys's assses

 

 

 

In boxing yes.

In "street fighting" between untrained guys, yes.

 

In MMA, no.

Almost all the champs in MMA are white. So are most of the top contenders.

[rallo 136]

I left out Ortiz and Evans.

 

Oh...and everyone always considered Liddell a "striker". He was, err...sort of. He won with it, because he was also a good wrestlers, he could stuff almost everyone's takedown attempts on him. So, he'd throw punches, hope to land a haymaker, then avoid a takedown, then throw some more punches, etc...til finally, he caught the guy.

 

Rampage is just a bad matchup for Liddell. He's a better wrestler, and it appears he's a better striker. So, Liddell was left with very little game plan. From what I saw, he could fight Rampage 10 times and never win one. Liddell could win the title again, but only if Jackson loses it first and he gets a shot at someone that is a better matchup for him, IMO.

In boxing yes.

In "street fighting" between untrained guys, yes.

 

In MMA, no.

Almost all the champs in MMA are white. So are most of the top contenders.

 

so after listening to this bs... then wathing the PPV fighting... and reading this drunk... dcone=GFIAFP... and based on writing style... but in a general statement...

 

 

give cael sanderson 1 yr.... he'd be among the top in his weight class....(around 189 lbs...) he'd own everyone

[Guest RenoZ]

dcone=GFIAFP

 

 

I've thought this for a while.

[famousb 11]

(If I am interpreting what you wrote--do you mean an "mma wrestler" or a pure wrestler right off the mat , with no MMA experience? I am assuming you mean an MMA wrestlers?)

 

You're wrong, wrong, wrong when it comes to the "octagon". Obviously you know very little about MMA, more specifically the UFC, when you make a comments like that.

 

It's been proven (mma records, plus a majority consensus/opinion), that wrestlers fair better than anyone in MMA.

1.) They can control the match--and take it to the ground when they want. If you have a "striker" whose objective is "KO his wrestler opponent before he gets taken down", it's possible, but it's unlikely. If a wrestler's objective is to take the striker down before he get's KO'd, that's much easier.

2.) The good wrestlers have been wrestling for 15+ years. Because it is/was a US sport taught in the public school systems. People who call themselves "strikers" can try to learn "wrestling", but they will NEVER catch up to those that have been doing it all their lives. The wrestlers don't need to "catch" up to the strikers. They don't need to be great while standing. You take someone down, and now you've a.) negated their primary skill, b.) only need average or less striking to pound them while you have them on the ground.

 

MOST of the top guys in the UFC are wrestlers.

Liddell

Jackson

Hughes

Sherk

Henderson

Lindland

Koscheck

Diego Sanchez

Couture

Wrestlers are becoming hated in MMA more and more, 1.) sometimes boring 2.) beat the "exciting guys".

People want toe to toe stand there and swing wildly bloody matches.

 

As far as weapons. Meh. Stupid part of the discussion.

 

actually, no, i interpreted the original term of "REAL wrestler" to mean like high school wrestling... cause what you are referring to is not wrestling, it is grappling, or a form of BJJ...

the guys that train in it may have been high school wrestlers at some point, but their style is not "wrestling"... so please don't try to tell me i don't know what i'm talking about in reference to MMA...

if you want to talk about history of it, the Gracies DOMINATED the original UFC w/ their BJJ style... which you would probably refer to as wrestling cause they laid on the ground - but not one of them did a shoot, a fireman's carry, or any other gay "wrestling" move that was meant to be used to get your opponent in a pin position.... they would actually PREFER to be the guy on his back on the ground because you exert MUCH less energy than the guy on top, and you have 4 "weapons" available for you to use (2 arms, 2 legs) where as the guy on top can only ever think about using 2 at a time because he would need two to support him. The Gracies would lay-in-wait for their opponent to get tired, make a mistake, and leave an opening for them to whip an arm bar, or other submission move on their opponents...

 

if you want to talk about good "strikers", there weren't alot of them, but Tank Abbot could've kicked most of the asses of the current guys simply cause he was so big and threw his 600 lb jackhammers...

 

also, the original question was just about which is the best fighting style - which i interpreted as for a "real" fight - meaning street situation... which means the fight will (statistically based) be finished in around 1-2 minutes. or as soon as it hits the floor because then someone else usually steps in and breaks it up (if you've ever been in a bar fight, you know what i'm talking about). In that scenario, where does "wrestling" skill help? there are no winners/losers in most fights, but if a 'striker' gets in a few shots before the wrestler takes him down, chances are the wrestler is the one that looks bad.

Bring in the skill of an Aikido or Small Circle Ju-Jitsu artist, and there's a good chance that wrestler's own moves will be his demise as he goes to take his 'opponent' down and winds up flying across the room, or ends up face down w/ his arm twisted up behind him...

[dcOne 2]

so after listening to this bs... then wathing the PPV fighting... and reading this drunk... dcone=GFIAFP... and based on writing style... but in a general statement...

give cael sanderson 1 yr.... he'd be among the top in his weight class....(around 189 lbs...) he'd own everyone

 

1.) if by same writing style, you mean "different", then yep, they're the same

2.) what was bs?

3.) what you are inferring about my thoughts on Cael Sanderson...ummmm. No.

 

You're not exactly the brightest fella around, are ya rallo?

 

 

 

 

but if a 'striker' gets in a few shots before the wrestler takes him down,

 

 

Generally, they don't.

 

 Try watching more MMA

[famousb 11]

Generally, they don't.

 

 Try watching more MMA

 

uh, i do, but again you are confusing the part of the argument that is focused on STREET/REAL LIFE fighting against a WRESTLER w/ the part of the argument focused on MMA & GRAPPLERS/BJJ...

 

TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIOS AND SITUATIONS....

 

try passing third grade reading comprehension

[dcOne 2]

what you are referring to is not wrestling, it is grappling, or a form of BJJ...

the guys that train in it may have been high school wrestlers at some point, but their style is not "wrestling"... so please don't try to tell me i don't know what i'm talking about in reference to MMA...

 

So all the guys that I mentioned, got "good" after their wrestling career? It was just purely coincidence that they had success in MMA. It wasn't from their wrestling?

 

 

Their "style" is not wrestling? Ummmm. When Hughes fought Sherk, they asked him about fighting a "fellow wrestler". On Sherdog...it LISTS their main fighting style. Why do the guys that I mentioned have the word "wrestling" listed as their style? Why do they refer to themselves as "wrestlers"?

 

Have you told them yet that their success is not from wrestling? Just curious.

[famousb 11]

So all the guys that I mentioned, got "good" after their wrestling career? It was just purely coincidence that they had success in MMA. It wasn't from their wrestling?

Their "style" is not wrestling? Ummmm. When Hughes fought Sherk, they asked him about fighting a "fellow wrestler". On Sherdog...it LISTS their main fighting style. Why do the guys that I mentioned have the word "wrestling" listed as their style? Why do they refer to themselves as "wrestlers"?

 

Have you told them yet that their success is not from wrestling? Just curious.

 

ok... i'll explain this real slow for the dumb kids...

the WRESTLING term i interpreted from the original statement of this topic was REAL WRESTLING as in high school/olympic WRESTLING... put one of those guys in a fight w/ any highly trained fighter and they will die... period, point blank.

BUT i'm certain if you then train them in MMA style "wrestling" as they like to deem it - but it is not WRESTLING, it is GRAPPLING, as it has been called in martial arts for DECADES longer than the UFC has been around calling it WRESTLING - i would think they would do good because they already have great physical training, body control and proprioception... But straight out off a high school wrestling mat they would get destroyed.

 

Again, i don't care what UFC calls it, their fighting style is NOT WRESTLING in the high school/olympic style. Period, point blank, i don't give a fock how dumb and dense you are that you can't get that through your head... They are not WRESTLERS in that sense - which is the sense of my interpretation of the original post because the statement was about a frat-boy WRESTLER.

[dcOne 2]

But straight out off a high school wrestling mat they would get destroyed.

 

 

Of course. I don't disagree with that. But...those same wrestlers (if part of the elite level), have a very good chance of succeeding in MMA.

 

 

I am saying these guys (that I listed) are using skills learned wrestling to be successful in MMA.

[NewbieJr 541]

I think I'd be a really good fighter, although I never got into one.

 

I already know my strategy.

 

I would run right at the guy, swinging both arms in a wild, windmill pattern. I'd have to connect at some point, right?

[wiffleball 4,790]

I wrestled in Jr. High. Looking back, it's pretty gay. But, you do have to be in great shape to be good.

 

 

Here's why 'real' wrestling is not a 'legit' fighting discipline.

 

 

Name a 'fight' you've ever had where you vountarily got down on your hands and knees and waited while the other guy grabbed your elbow and rammed his crotch into your butt and his chin into your back.

 

(this is the part where you insert the hilarity)

 

That's not a 'legitimate' fighting technique. It's not a 'legitimate' situation that any straight man would every find himself in. Sure, it may be a page out of the "gay self defense" course, but that's about it.

 

Wrestling came from the Greeks. The Greeks inventored homersexuality. (Or at least, perfected it). The first wrestling was done in the nude. Need I say more??

[Guest RenoZ]

ok... i'll explain this real slow for the dumb kids...

the WRESTLING term i interpreted from the original statement of this topic was REAL WRESTLING as in high school/olympic WRESTLING... put one of those guys in a fight w/ any highly trained fighter and they will die... period, point blank.

BUT i'm certain if you then train them in MMA style "wrestling" as they like to deem it - but it is not WRESTLING, it is GRAPPLING, as it has been called in martial arts for DECADES longer than the UFC has been around calling it WRESTLING - i would think they would do good because they already have great physical training, body control and proprioception... But straight out off a high school wrestling mat they would get destroyed.

 

Again, i don't care what UFC calls it, their fighting style is NOT WRESTLING in the high school/olympic style. Period, point blank, i don't give a fock how dumb and dense you are that you can't get that through your head... They are not WRESTLERS in that sense - which is the sense of my interpretation of the original post because the statement was about a frat-boy WRESTLER.

 

It's really hard for me (as a high school and college wrestler) to agree with this entire statement. There are ABSOLUTELY no "disciplines" in MMA that are entirely used by a fighter. No kickboxer comes in to the UFC and dominates with solely kickboxing. No jiu jitsu guy comes in and dominates with JUST jiu jitsu. A wrestler doesn't dominate because he knows how to lock up an inside cradle. He does so because he knows how to sprawl, use his hips and control the fight on the ground. Sean Sherk ABSOLUTELY proved that on Saturday night. He did almost nothing but wrestled (double legs and body position on top).

 

I wrestled in Jr. High.

 

Hard to believe that a guy like you couldn't hack it.

 

[rallo 136]

1.) if by same writing style, you mean "different", then yep, they're the same

2.) what was bs?

3.) what you are inferring about my thoughts on Cael Sanderson...ummmm. No.

 

You're not exactly the brightest fella around, are ya rallo?

 

i must not have been... reread... i was drunk posting... a crime of the highest order i know... but... you know how they say alcohol is truth serum... for some reason reading this at the time i thought you=gfiafp... sorry if i was wrong...

 

about the second part

 

i don't remember what i was calling bs... i might have been trying to point out that the PPV match i had watched at my friends house was bs... no idea though

 

3rd part... i don't remember if you said anything about cael sanderson... drunk post

 

and... i like to think that i'm bright... don't hurt my feelings

 

4th... sorry for calling you gfiafp if you aren't... my mistake... we can ro-sham-bo about it and you can go first...