Matt Walsh update? *UPDATE*

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Your opinion based on a defensive posture. At least the rest of the fanbases can say their team doesn't cheat, play dumb regarding the rules, instruct their employees on how to lie about it, then try to sweep it under the rug while pointing out that "everyone else is doing it", even though no one else got caught (in addition to having no proof to back up that statement).

 

You would have to admit that you would give your left nut to have the Eagles with 3 SB's even if they did everything that you accuse the Patriots of. To assume that no one else has done similar things in the past is naive.

[murf74 461]

You would have to admit that you would give your left nut to have the Eagles with 3 SB's even if they did everything that you accuse the Patriots of. To assume that no one else has done similar things in the past is naive.

 

Yep, we will all just pretend other teams have been caught cheating just to make you feel better.

 

Pats fans should just let this die. You cannot point to anyone from 2000 to 2007 breaking these rules so stop throwing it out that everyone's doing it.

 

Boy Pats fans kids probably get away with a lot telling them "everybody's doing it" and they don't even have to give any proof.

[three out of four 0]

Yep, we will all just pretend other teams have been caught cheating just to make you feel better.

 

Pats fans should just let this die. You cannot point to anyone from 2000 to 2007 breaking these rules so stop throwing it out that everyone's doing it.

 

Boy Pats fans kids probably get away with a lot telling them "everybody's doing it" and they don't even have to give any proof.

 

Ok, lets disregard the assertions from former NFL'ers Jimmy Johnson, ###### Vermeil, Ron Jaworski, etc., that this stuff is rampant. Even Matt Walsh himself stated that he saw other teams doing it. Now I don't believe Matt Walsh is very credible but why would he say something like this that basically helps the Pats?

[Sho Nuff 719]

Ok, lets disregard the assertions from former NFL'ers Jimmy Johnson, ###### Vermeil, Ron Jaworski, etc., that this stuff is rampant. Even Matt Walsh himself stated that he saw other teams doing it. Now I don't believe Matt Walsh is very credible but why would he say something like this that basically helps the Pats?

 

Its funny that Pats fans/defenders only want to believe that part about what Walsh said.

And most of what the ex-players/coaches said was in regard to just stealing signals.

Not breaking the rules by taping the sideline signals as the Pats were busted actually doing.

None of us know what the rule was and when it was put into place...all we know is that when the Pats did it...it was not allowed...and they were busted and punished.

 

lets all move on...lets all quit the everyone else was doing it crap...because really, you have not one ounce of proof to back that up.

[three out of four 0]

Its funny that Pats fans/defenders only want to believe that part about what Walsh said.

And most of what the ex-players/coaches said was in regard to just stealing signals.

Not breaking the rules by taping the sideline signals as the Pats were busted actually doing.

None of us know what the rule was and when it was put into place...all we know is that when the Pats did it...it was not allowed...and they were busted and punished.

 

lets all move on...lets all quit the everyone else was doing it crap...because really, you have not one ounce of proof to back that up.

 

Ok, so Jimmy Johnson made all that stuff up just to make himself look bad? That makes perfect sense.

 

I like how you twist my words:

I don't believe Walsh is very credible = I only believe one very small part about what he said

[OakHeadFootball 1]

lets all move on...lets all quit the everyone else was doing it crap...because really, you have not one ounce of proof to back that up.

 

Kinda like how you guys don't have one ounce of proof that videotaping signals anyone can already see and record really makes much of a difference.

 

but that doesn't stop the haters.

[ScottyFargo 0]

• This is what Pat fans believe:
   
  
• There's no proof that taping signals helped the Patriots win regular season games, playoff games, or any Superbowls, so you don't have a right to say you are disatisfied with the Patriots punishment.
  
• Matt Walsh once slipped razor sharp blades from a blender into his own bed in effort to dissuade his amorous roommate from sleeping with his girlfriend there, so his testimony to Goodell is questionable. Also, Matt Walsh assisted a professional football team in cheating, so he is clearly a person of low caliber, and is not to be trusted.
  
• Bill Belichek, however, is still o.k.
  
• Mark Schlereth may have been on steroids but definitely played for a bronco's team that cheated, so his opinions and first hand knowledge of football is questionable.
  
• Many former coaches admit to taping their opponents. Trying to decipher signals is a part of the game, please don't hate because the Pats are better at it than Your favorite team.
  
• Your favorite team* probably cheats, too, and woe unto thee if you had to face all the pressures that a Patriots fan has had to endure this past year if you knew what dirty stuff they do, so your opinion is invalid because you're just a hater AND cheating is rampant.
  
• Your favorite team has won X amount of superbowls. If X=0, your opinion is invalid. Also, your team should cheat better in order to win Y amount of superbowls, where Y=X + more.
  
• Arlen Specter is in Comtel's pocket and we all know they've got it bad for the NFL, so he has no right to question Goodell's handling of the Spygate issue. Also, tax dollars, better things to do, etc. etc. etc.
  
• Spygate is over because Walsh's tape were consistent with what they admitted they did and were already punished for, even if nobody knew the extent of the cheating until more questions were raised when Walsh came forward.
  
• Belichek simply did misinterpret the ruling and did not know Matt Walsh from Adam. In fact, he may have been unfamiliar with anyone who was taping opposing coaching signals from an illegal location, especially if they were instructed to not get caught.
  

I've seen creationists put up more convincing, less over the top arguments.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

This is what Pats haters believe:

- The Pats were taping signals from a location that everyone has access to, so it must be the reason that they won 3 SB's

- The Pats were punished with the largest penalty ever and it wasn't enough

- Because no other team has been caught with this type of charge, then they must have been the only team doing it despite other players, coaches, and GM's indicating the opposite

- Arlen Specter has no bias whatsoever even though his two largest contributors are Comcast who has been in a fight with the NFL and the lawyers representing Comcast.

- Even though all evidence indicates that the tapes could not and were not used in the same game as they were shot, they must have been used that way because it supports the cheater argument

- Even though most of the people who have would have been affected by this (Jimmy Johnson, Cowher, Polian, Martz, et al) have all indicated that it had nothing to do with the outcome of the games in question, it is more important to hang your hat on the opinions of those who have had axes to grind before this against the Patriots (Schlereth, Palantonio, et al).

- Even though Patriots fans, the Patriots organization, and Belichick have all admitted that the team cheated by taping signals and accepts the punishment, it is easier to pretend that did not happen

- Matt Walsh is telling the truth about some things (taping, describing the walkthough, being told to hide the taping), but is lying about other things (handing over tapes after the games, seeing others taping)

 

There are plenty more.

[murf74 461]

This is what Pats haters believe:

- The Pats were taping signals from a location that everyone has access to, so it must be the reason that they won 3 SB's

- The Pats were punished with the largest penalty ever and it wasn't enough

- Because no other team has been caught with this type of charge, then they must have been the only team doing it despite other players, coaches, and GM's indicating the opposite

- Arlen Specter has no bias whatsoever even though his two largest contributors are Comcast who has been in a fight with the NFL and the lawyers representing Comcast.

- Even though all evidence indicates that the tapes could not and were not used in the same game as they were shot, they must have been used that way because it supports the cheater argument

- Even though most of the people who have would have been affected by this (Jimmy Johnson, Cowher, Polian, Martz, et al) have all indicated that it had nothing to do with the outcome of the games in question, it is more important to hang your hat on the opinions of those who have had axes to grind before this against the Patriots (Schlereth, Palantonio, et al).

- Even though Patriots fans, the Patriots organization, and Belichick have all admitted that the team cheated by taping signals and accepts the punishment, it is easier to pretend that did not happen

- Matt Walsh is telling the truth about some things (taping, describing the walkthough, being told to hide the taping), but is lying about other things (handing over tapes after the games, seeing others taping)

 

There are plenty more.

 

Wow, were you drunk when you wrote that. I'm dizzy. Stop the spinning I think I'm gonna hurl.

[OakHeadFootball 1]

This is what Pats haters believe:

- The Pats were taping signals from a location that everyone has access to, so it must be the reason that they won 3 SB's

- The Pats were punished with the largest penalty ever and it wasn't enough

- Because no other team has been caught with this type of charge, then they must have been the only team doing it despite other players, coaches, and GM's indicating the opposite

- Arlen Specter has no bias whatsoever even though his two largest contributors are Comcast who has been in a fight with the NFL and the lawyers representing Comcast.

- Even though all evidence indicates that the tapes could not and were not used in the same game as they were shot, they must have been used that way because it supports the cheater argument

- Even though most of the people who have would have been affected by this (Jimmy Johnson, Cowher, Polian, Martz, et al) have all indicated that it had nothing to do with the outcome of the games in question, it is more important to hang your hat on the opinions of those who have had axes to grind before this against the Patriots (Schlereth, Palantonio, et al).

- Even though Patriots fans, the Patriots organization, and Belichick have all admitted that the team cheated by taping signals and accepts the punishment, it is easier to pretend that did not happen

- Matt Walsh is telling the truth about some things (taping, describing the walkthough, being told to hide the taping), but is lying about other things (handing over tapes after the games, seeing others taping)

 

There are plenty more.

[cblue 0]

The *pats Superbowel Wins Are Tainted!

 

"Belichick's primary explanation, given in February to the Boston Globe -- "I felt there was a gray area in the rule and I misinterpreted the rule" -- has always failed the straight-face test, since the rule reads, "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game." Find a "gray area" there to misinterpret. Belichick's alternative explanation, given last fall when Spygate first broke, then expanded on Friday to CBS News, was: "I made a mistake. I was wrong." Years of sneaky cheating are not a "mistake."

 

"More important is the issue of whether New England benefited from cheating. Goodell has contended any benefits the Patriots derived were minor at most. But why would the Patriots clandestinely break a rule for eight years, engaging risk, if they never obtained any benefit? They weren't making a PBS documentary! Walsh testified that he took the videotapes directly to Ernie Adams, Belichick's right-hand man. If the tapes merely had been for some kind of historic archive, they would have gone to a video room clerk: Instead they went straight to the top."

 

"But many NFL contests turn on as little as a few snaps. If cheating allowed the Patriots to come out ahead on a couple of more snaps per game than they otherwise would have, that could shift outcomes in their favor. All four New England Super Bowl appearances of this decade have been decided by three points. Change one or two plays in Arizona this February, and Belichick joins Chuck Noll at 4-0 in the ultimate game; change one or two plays in each of his previous appearances, and Belichick joins Bud Grant and Marv Levy at 0-4. How many NFL owners would surrender a first-round draft choice and a fine equal to one player salary to exchange results over the past eight years with the Patriots? New England kept cheating because it was benefiting from cheating, and the price paid so far is trivial. "

[NewbieJr 540]

The *pats Superbowel Wins Are Tainted!

 

change one or two plays in each of his previous appearances, and Belichick joins Bud Grant and Marv Levy at 0-4. How many NFL owners would surrender a first-round draft choice and a fine equal to one player salary to exchange results over the past eight years with the Patriots? New England kept cheating because it was benefiting from cheating, and the price paid so far is trivial. "

Oh, but the Pats lost a first round pick. This should be over and never talked about again.

[Sho Nuff 719]

Ok, so Jimmy Johnson made all that stuff up just to make himself look bad? That makes perfect sense.

 

I like how you twist my words:

I don't believe Walsh is very credible = I only believe one very small part about what he said

 

Jimmy...bring his quotes...and again, when was the rule in place (was it in place when he was coaching). That is the point.

Nobody knows when the rule was put into place...if you do...please post it.

 

I twist nothing...and I was not just talking about you. I was talking about so many Pats fans how as soon as Walsh was mentioned went on this character assassination...but they now want to use some of his words that make it look like so many others were doing exactly the same thing.

[Sho Nuff 719]

Kinda like how you guys don't have one ounce of proof that videotaping signals anyone can already see and record really makes much of a difference.

 

but that doesn't stop the haters.

 

So...BB continued going through the trouble of taping signals that you say "anyone can already see and record" (which I don't agree with)...but he kept doing that, despite warnings from the NFL not to do it...because it made no difference?

 

Again...if BB is such the genius that pats fans want to make him out to be...he would not have kept doing something like that for that long, spent that kind of time and money on the practice if it did not help him. Its that simple.

 

That little "we don't know how it helped" line is the weakest of all from the Pats fans and defenders.

[Sho Nuff 719]

This is what Pats haters believe:

- The Pats were taping signals from a location that everyone has access to, so it must be the reason that they won 3 SB's

- The Pats were punished with the largest penalty ever and it wasn't enough

- Because no other team has been caught with this type of charge, then they must have been the only team doing it despite other players, coaches, and GM's indicating the opposite

- Arlen Specter has no bias whatsoever even though his two largest contributors are Comcast who has been in a fight with the NFL and the lawyers representing Comcast.

- Even though all evidence indicates that the tapes could not and were not used in the same game as they were shot, they must have been used that way because it supports the cheater argument

- Even though most of the people who have would have been affected by this (Jimmy Johnson, Cowher, Polian, Martz, et al) have all indicated that it had nothing to do with the outcome of the games in question, it is more important to hang your hat on the opinions of those who have had axes to grind before this against the Patriots (Schlereth, Palantonio, et al).

- Even though Patriots fans, the Patriots organization, and Belichick have all admitted that the team cheated by taping signals and accepts the punishment, it is easier to pretend that did not happen

- Matt Walsh is telling the truth about some things (taping, describing the walkthough, being told to hide the taping), but is lying about other things (handing over tapes after the games, seeing others taping)

 

There are plenty more.

 

Well...just because I think the Pats cheated does not make me a hater...but I will play along.

- No...the Pats taped signals from a location the league office specifically said they could not tape from. Hence cheating...hence, losing a 1st round draft pick and the owner and coach were fined the league max.

- What was not enough is that IMO, BB should have been suspended...the league considered it but decided the draft pick would hurt worse (and they could have done both by the rules of the league had they wanted to)

- No current coaches and GMs are admitting to taping in the manner that the Pats were busted with...not at least in a time frame where we knew the rule existed...and not after the league sent out letters to address this exact practice...that Pats did.

- Specter is an idiot who is wasting his time and our money, and plenty of those who have said the Pats cheated and you label a "hater" have said as much.

- Not sure all evidence indicates it was never used during the same game. Though, it would have been difficult to do. Most agree it was for future scouting.

- Part of that could be tinfoil hat about the league putting them up to speaking out (ala Martz most recently). But do you expect anyone in those positions to just come out and call them cheaters?

- BB did not admit to cheating...neither did Kraft...they are still playing the "misinterpreted rule" crap.

- That last one is funny given how the Pats fans have acted about Walsh in the exact same manner.

[GhostofMeanMachine99 1]

Kinda like how you guys don't have one ounce of proof that videotaping signals anyone can already see and record really makes much of a difference.

 

but that doesn't stop the haters.

 

If it didn't, why do it multiple times over an extended period, and why coach your employees on how to lie about it?

 

You have zero ounces of proof that it doesn't, especially when they've won three superbowls over that same period. Not saying that is the reason why, but you can't simply dismiss the arguement because "you guys don't have one ounce of proof that videotaping signals...".

[GhostofMeanMachine99 1]

You would have to admit that you would give your left nut to have the Eagles with 3 SB's even if they did everything that you accuse the Patriots of. To assume that no one else has done similar things in the past is naive.

 

I'd give both of my nuts just to have one Lombardi Trophy in Philly. Doesn't have any relevance to the fact that Belicheat cheated, that others in the organization had knowledge, and no one has any justifyable excuses.

 

Safe to say if Belicheat just came out and said "we did break the rule, you caught us, penalize us and we won't do it again", most folks would be okay with it. The facts remain that he gave a very lame excuse about not knowing the interpretation of the rules, about how he coached employees when confronted about the third camera, and about saying "there's no real competitive advantage", even though he did it numerous times over an extended period.

 

If this happened over a period where they didn't win three Subpar Bowls, this issue would have moved on long ago.

[pittnthat 0]

The only thing that we can all agree on is that a player on D now having a radio in their helmet is a great thing. This should eliminate B.S. forever. I would like to know when communication with the defensive player shuts off.(15 seconds on the playclock?) I can't wait to see how this changes the game for D.

[FlaHawker 24]

Pats fans should just let this die.

Yea I'm sure Steeler fan is going to let that happen

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Well...just because I think the Pats cheated does not make me a hater...but I will play along.

- No...the Pats taped signals from a location the league office specifically said they could not tape from. Hence cheating...hence, losing a 1st round draft pick and the owner and coach were fined the league max.

- What was not enough is that IMO, BB should have been suspended...the league considered it but decided the draft pick would hurt worse (and they could have done both by the rules of the league had they wanted to)

- No current coaches and GMs are admitting to taping in the manner that the Pats were busted with...not at least in a time frame where we knew the rule existed...and not after the league sent out letters to address this exact practice...that Pats did.

- Specter is an idiot who is wasting his time and our money, and plenty of those who have said the Pats cheated and you label a "hater" have said as much.

- Not sure all evidence indicates it was never used during the same game. Though, it would have been difficult to do. Most agree it was for future scouting.

- Part of that could be tinfoil hat about the league putting them up to speaking out (ala Martz most recently). But do you expect anyone in those positions to just come out and call them cheaters?

- BB did not admit to cheating...neither did Kraft...they are still playing the "misinterpreted rule" crap.

- That last one is funny given how the Pats fans have acted about Walsh in the exact same manner.

 

Well, I was trying to mimic the other post which was short on facts and long on extrapolation, but I should at least respond to your comments

 

- Pats did cheat, were caught cheating and were punished. I just don't think that the cheating was the reason that they won those games.

- I disagree about the suspension, but that is your opinion

- No current players, coaches or GM's would admit to cheating because they would get penalized. Your argument that, just because current people aren't jumping up and saying "we cheated too", doesn't hold water

- I agree on the Specter thing. He is playing politics.

- Agree on future scouting

- I would expect that players, coaches and GM's of teams supposedly "wronged" by this would be more outspoken about the outcome. I find that to be more reasonable than those people claiming that they cheated themselves

- Semantics, but I agree. I think that if Belichick had been less clandestine about the whole thing, then this may not be what it is today. While he may be a great coach, he is not a great PR guy. I would also say that you are missing the boat on Kraft. This is the guy that stood up to the entire NFL owners meeting and apologized for what this did to the league and he received a standing ovation. I would think that if his fellow owners are with him on this, then he either had a serious mea culpa or there is more of this going on around the league.

- Not at all on Walsh. I don't lend any credence to what he says. I lay more value on the video tape showing him taping in full Patriots gear (rather than hiding it), and that his dates and recollections are not exactly as clear as Specter and others think they are.

[cblue 0]

- Pats did cheat, were caught cheating and were punished. I just don't think that the cheating was the reason that they won those games.

 

- Semantics, but I agree. I think that if Belichick had been less clandestine about the whole thing, then this may not be what it is today. While he may be a great coach, he is not a great PR guy.

 

Given that the *belicheat did cheat then it is hard to say that he is a "great" coach. Being a great coach AND a cheater just doesn't go together. Afterall, nobody knows if it was the advantage *belicheat gained from cheating or his being a "great" coach that won those superbowels.

 

I think the only way that non-*pats fans will call *belicheat a "great" coach is if he wins 3 superbowls without cheating.

[ScottyFargo 0]

Well, I was trying to mimic the other post which was short on facts and long on extrapolation, but I should at least respond to your comments

 

I simply summarized what people have said and were saying in this thread.

[Sho Nuff 719]

Well, I was trying to mimic the other post which was short on facts and long on extrapolation, but I should at least respond to your comments

 

- Pats did cheat, were caught cheating and were punished. I just don't think that the cheating was the reason that they won those games.

- I disagree about the suspension, but that is your opinion

- No current players, coaches or GM's would admit to cheating because they would get penalized. Your argument that, just because current people aren't jumping up and saying "we cheated too", doesn't hold water

- I agree on the Specter thing. He is playing politics.

- Agree on future scouting

- I would expect that players, coaches and GM's of teams supposedly "wronged" by this would be more outspoken about the outcome. I find that to be more reasonable than those people claiming that they cheated themselves

- Semantics, but I agree. I think that if Belichick had been less clandestine about the whole thing, then this may not be what it is today. While he may be a great coach, he is not a great PR guy. I would also say that you are missing the boat on Kraft. This is the guy that stood up to the entire NFL owners meeting and apologized for what this did to the league and he received a standing ovation. I would think that if his fellow owners are with him on this, then he either had a serious mea culpa or there is more of this going on around the league.

- Not at all on Walsh. I don't lend any credence to what he says. I lay more value on the video tape showing him taping in full Patriots gear (rather than hiding it), and that his dates and recollections are not exactly as clear as Specter and others think they are.

 

 

Kraft mirrored Belichick's statements about it being an misinterpretation of the rules not too long ago...that is what I was going on.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I simply summarized what people have said and were saying in this thread.

... and I was summarizing what the other side of the coin was. Like many of these situations, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[edjr 5,547]

Given that the *belicheat did cheat then it is hard to say that he is a "great" coach. Being a great coach AND a cheater just doesn't go together. Afterall, nobody knows if it was the advantage *belicheat gained from cheating or his being a "great" coach that won those superbowels.

 

I think the only way that non-*pats fans will call *belicheat a "great" coach is if he wins 3 superbowls without cheating.

 

 

 

Barry Bonds isn't a great hitter anymore because he did steroids (cheated)? Is that what you're saying? you're an asstard

 

hth

[t.j 35]

In Goodell's press conference today, Gary Meyers asked the questions I was wondering about. Essentially, 1. Was Goodell aware that the Patriots illegally taped coaching signals prior to 2006 at the time he handed down the punishment? 2. Was the taping of signals prior to 2006 included in the original punishment? Goodell's answer was that based on Belichick's answer that his interpretation of the rule was wrong dating back to when he was hired, he assumed that the Patriots were taping illegally prior to 2006, at the time of handing down the punishment. So even though he did not have evidence of illegal taping prior to 2006, or an admission of illegal taping prior to 2006, he did include that in the original punishment. So, now that he has evidence (tapes from before 2006), it will not change the punishment. That's pretty much the end of this whole thing as far as I'm concerned.

 

Meyers apparently is not satisfied with Goodell's answer:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...ubt.html?page=1

(above link is page 2 of the article. beginning of article is here)

 

Four days after the league caught the Patriots spying on the Jets in last year's opener, Goodell fined Belichick $500,000, the Patriots $250,000 and took away a first-round draft pick. Goodell claimed Tuesday the penalty was based on the fact that "it was clear that it was not just an isolated incident with the Patriots because we had other tapes from the Patriots."

 

Goodell has done an excellent job in nearly two years on the job and is a refreshing upgrade over Paul Tagliabue, but he was all over the map in SpyGate. First of all, he handed out the penalties three days before tapes and notes were confiscated from the Patriots. "Because I knew what they had," Goodell said. "They told us in advance."

 

But in his statement when he disciplined Belichick and the Patriots, he said it was "for violating league policy last Sunday," meaning the season opener against the Jets. It made no mention of the "totality of the act," which is what he said Tuesday. And then he ordered the tapes destroyed, giving the perception of a coverup, even if that was not his intention. Goodell didn't acknowledge definitively that Belichick had been taping back to his first year as the Pats coach in 2000 until Feb.13 following his meeting with Specter. That was two weeks after Walsh surfaced as a former SpyGater.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Meyers. I've heard a lot of Patriots fans ridiculously complain that, now that the Patriots have been punished, the league is sweeping things under the rug rather than investigate the rest of the league for identical or similar violations. But the reality is, any sweeping under the rug that is being done is possibly or probably benefitting the Patriots more than anyone else.

[NewbieJr 540]

 

Barry Bonds isn't a great hitter anymore because he did steroids (cheated)? Is that what you're saying? you're an asstard

 

hth

Steroids didn't make Bonds a great hitter. He was always a great hitter. Steroids made Bonds a great 'home run hitter', something he never was before he started pumping steroids in his ass.

As a result (and rightfully so), many will forget the fact that he was great player long-before he ever decided to take shortcuts and turn himself into a powerhitter. If he had stayed clean, he would have been considered one of teh top ten players of all-time, maybe even top five. His combination of good speed, good power, and great fielding, made him an all-around great player. Now, since most consider him a fraud, his pre-steroid skills are forgotten by many, and he is just another McGwire or Sosa.

[jgcrawfish 232]

Steroids didn't make Bonds a great hitter. He was always a great hitter. Steroids made Bonds a great 'home run hitter', something he never was before he started pumping steroids in his ass.

As a result (and rightfully so), many will forget the fact that he was great player long-before he ever decided to take shortcuts and turn himself into a powerhitter. If he had stayed clean, he would have been considered one of teh top ten players of all-time, maybe even top five. His combination of good speed, good power, and great fielding, made him an all-around great player. Now, since most consider him a fraud, his pre-steroid skills are forgotten by many, and he is just another McGwire or Sosa.

 

Steroids don't make you a better hitter, however there's an argument that they technically don't help make you a better powerhitter all that much. What they enable you to do is do work out like a madman, build muscle at a phenomenal rate and specifically, not have to suffer the recovery time nearly as much from the brutal workouts. It allows a nominal talent like Jason Giambi to bulk up and hit a few more out of the yard, but the key is the bulking up part, you still have to deal with the swing you have. And you still have to have the dedication to be that workout madman. Steroids also probably extended Barry's playing career by 5 years. But unlike Giambi, Barry was going to be great no matter what. No drug created so far nor any amount of it can sweeten the extremely sweet swing Barry already had. But you will note the amount of games he missed when on the juice was significantly less than what he missed while off it. They benefit pitchers by reducing their recovery time, aiding career longevity and even helping endurance while on the mound. Much as I dislike Barry, you cannot knock the skills the guy brought to the table.

 

However, it won't matter. He'll still go into the HOF and he'll still own the single season and career HR records. There won't be an asterisk next to anything of his unless baseball is willing to put an asterisk next to EVERY statistic that happened from say 1995 to the current day because there is no way to know how many were doing while on the juice and who was on it at the time. The same stands for the Pats. Goodell has no motivation to further sanction or even investigate further filming by the Pats or any team because it threatens to "*" anything statistically for the last 7-8 yrs. Both situations are what they are, circumventing of the rules which resulted in a competitive advantage. We should all just move on and let it go.

[GhostofMeanMachine99 1]

Steroids didn't make Bonds a great hitter. He was always a great hitter. Steroids made Bonds a great 'home run hitter', something he never was before he started pumping steroids in his ass.

As a result (and rightfully so), many will forget the fact that he was great player long-before he ever decided to take shortcuts and turn himself into a powerhitter. If he had stayed clean, he would have been considered one of teh top ten players of all-time, maybe even top five. His combination of good speed, good power, and great fielding, made him an all-around great player. Now, since most consider him a fraud, his pre-steroid skills are forgotten by many, and he is just another McGwire or Sosa.

 

Exactly. No one is saying the Patriots were not a great team during this time, and no one discounts how good of a coach Belicheat is. One can speculate to what extent based on the evidence and the time period.

 

Like I said previously, over an over again, it's how Belicheat has handled the situation, and how he tried to cover it up over the years that is in question.

 

He said there was no real benefit to filming, and he misinterpreted the rule, yet he cheated numerous times and told his people how to handle it on the sidelines.

 

Well, if you're interpretation of the rule means you think you're within the guidelines of the rule, why do you have to coach your people on how to lie about it if they get confronted on the sideline?

 

Either Belicheat thinks he's above the rules, felt he could get away with it, or his arrogance dictates he's smarter than everyone else, cheating is still cheating. He got caught, regardless if everyone else is doing it.

 

[ff07 2]

Oh, but the Pats lost a first round pick. This should be over and never talked about again.

 

 

this is my favorite part of the article. can we say he cheated all the way back to 1980 now?

 

 

'Footnote: In Friday's Washington Post, NFL reporter Mark Maske quotes former Giants quarterback Phil Simms contending that stolen signals are no guarantee of victory: "'I've been in games where we knew every signal, every call by the other team, and we still lost,' Simms said by telephone yesterday. 'We [the Giants] had the San Diego Chargers' signals in 1980. We knew every signal. We knew every play. We were calling out what they were going to do: 'Here comes this. Here comes that.' They still scored 44 points.'" After more Simms quotes, the article moved to other matters. Who was on the New York Giants' coaching staff in 1980? Bill Belichick and Ernie Adams. '

[ScottyFargo 0]

However, it won't matter. He'll still go into the HOF and he'll still own the single season and career HR records. There won't be an asterisk next to anything of his unless baseball is willing to put an asterisk next to EVERY statistic that happened from say 1995 to the current day because there is no way to know how many were doing while on the juice and who was on it at the time. The same stands for the Pats. Goodell has no motivation to further sanction or even investigate further filming by the Pats or any team because it threatens to "*" anything statistically for the last 7-8 yrs. Both situations are what they are, circumventing of the rules which resulted in a competitive advantage. We should all just move on and let it go.

 

I don't know about all that... Bonds is facing what, 14 odd counts of purjery and obstruction. He was a FA this year but he was ostracized from the sport for being so famous for the scandal, despite breaking the HR record. That's immediate impact, long term is that nobody will ever discuss Barry Bonds without bringing up steroids into the discussion, just like no news article discusses O.J. Simpson without reminding us that he was found innocent of murdering two people. There might not be an asterisk in the record books, but that doesn't mean all is forgotten.

 

I don't imagine that the Patriots will come off much better after this. No, no more punishments, no asterisks, but there will always be unanswered questions that leave their mark on the dynasty under Bellichek's coaching.

[jgcrawfish 232]

Interesting viewpoint...

 

TMQ take on Pats cheating

[NewbieJr 540]

there's an argument that they technically don't help make you a better powerhitter all that much.

 

He'll still go into the HOF and he'll still own the single season and career HR records. There won't be an asterisk next to anything of his unless baseball is willing to put an asterisk next to EVERY statistic that happened from say 1995

 

Your first statement is ridiculous. Look at what McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, etc. did before and after their steroid use. The other benefits are true, as well, but the home run figures are 100% atributable to steroids.

 

The HOF still remains to be seen. At one point, when the Bonds-hype was huge, I thought teh baseball writers, who are notorious 'purists', might try to make a statement by keeping him out of teh hall. Now, however, I think they may vote him in. It seems he is all but forgotten, so the writers don't really need to 'make a statement'. His place in history seems to be finding itself. In my opinion, the numbers he put up as a natural hitter is enough to get him in. As far as the asterisk goes, it doesn't really matter if there is an actual '*' there or not, everyone knows where those figures came from and people make their own decision as to how much weight they want to put on them.

[Mackgee 0]

I'd give both of my nuts just to have one Lombardi Trophy in Philly.

 

Well lets see you gave up both of those to get T.O. a few years back. What are you going to do with the two nuts in your mouth?