Bernie-mania running wild as Hillary Clinton sputters

[Mungwater 601]

(Play along with me here, it's going somewhere) How does the money get from our country to their country?

People move there

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

People move there

The money. What do they do, put it in a suitcase?

[BunnysBastatrds 2,606]

Not 100k. 5.5 million. Or 5500k if you will.

 

You would agree there is a difference, yes? So when you say 100k because that helps your argument, you are being disingenuous, no?

 

Also why is 60% over the top? Again the beneficiaries did nothing to earn that money.

Who are you or the government to decide that? You have no idea how that money was earned and want to blanket all who have?

 

you have all that money floating in your big Fawking head about how to give it away to those who produce NOTHING for votes that keep those in poverty staying in generation after generation of poverty and then blame others as to why they, the poor, are where they are, while you pretend to care.

[Vikings4ever 568]

http://i.imgur.com/ZwR2r4P.png

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Of course I am. It's all you have in any argument. Hysteria and whining.....blah blah blah. Grow a pair and start defending your weak arguments or shut the fawk up!!!

 

Let's talk estate tax. You apparently have none to receive or give. So it means nothing to you other than giving other people's money away to those who vote like you. You're a government employee who relys on us that pay and sacrifice.

If it wasn't for the small business owner and the middle class, you'd be working to jobs like the rest of us to proudly say as you do, "I'm not poor!"

 

You made a wise choice my friend. Working for the government allows you to not take any Fawking risks while those of us who do get butt fawked at tax time and you sit on your sanctimonist ass telling me I'm the problem, I'm the whiner, and I should be quiet. How Fawking lucky are you?

 

I didn't build that, right? I don't deserve that business, right? I wasn't there in the very beginning when there was nothing but stood by my family and sacrificed the little things like air conditioning or a night out for years.

 

My family scraped and survived to build a business and now dolts like you believe that taking away a large percentage is fair. Just give it away. Fawk you! And those that think like you. You have zero idea about the working world that drives this economy. and are all to proud to do it. SIC

Not true

 

Not true

 

I'd wager I pay more taxes than you do

 

Never said that

 

 

Anything else?

[BunnysBastatrds 2,606]

Not true

 

Not true

 

I'd wager I pay more taxes than you do

 

Never said that

 

 

Anything else?

I think you're a good guy who means well. I know if I sat down with you and told my families story you'd agree that 60% is to much to take.

 

But my families story is not the only one. To say that business owners should be taxed-fined, at the level you suggest is outrageous. And I'd hope you would agree. You throwing out the dogma of the lefts moronic arguments as to why taxes should be much higher than they are what makes me think you are who you are.

 

Who are you today? All of what you deny here is not what you've denied in the past. Please clarify so I can get it right in the near future.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

I think you're a good guy who means well. I know if I sat down with you and told my families story you'd agree that 60% is to much to take.

 

But my families story is not the only one. To say that business owners should be taxed-fined, at the level you suggest is outrageous. And I'd hope you would agree. You throwing out the dogma of the lefts moronic arguments as to why taxes should be much higher than they are what makes me think you are who you are.

 

Who are you today? All of what you deny here is not what you've denied in the past. Please clarify so I can get it right in the near future.

Who's saying anything about taxing businesses? This discussion is about the estate tax

 

I've never said I was poor or don't pay taxes. That's your bullsh1t assumption

 

And I went into private practice a year ago so I don't work for the government anymore. But even when I did I worked my ass off, eventually made good money (for government work) and paid a fair amount of taxes. HTH

[Voltaire 5,491]

You don't want to curb investments, and I think the dead person already paid the tax on the money, why should the government get more?

Because somebody hsa to. The government is broke and constantly running deficits.

[tanatastic 2,062]

Jesus Christ you guys love babbling about the presidency as if a damn thing changes regardless of who's in there. It's all the same thing. I just like gimmick presidency. Black, female, gay, Asian, I want to be able to say that I was there when we had something besides a stodgy old white dude like every other year.

 

Have some fun guys, life is short and there's no such thing as an afterlife. Your bills will be due no matter who is president and you will be taxed the exact same. Barney the purple dinosaur could be president and not a damn thing in my life would change. Get over it.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Jesus Christ you guys love babbling about the presidency as if a damn thing changes regardless of who's in there. It's all the same thing. I just like gimmick presidency. Black, female, gay, Asian, I want to be able to say that I was there when we had something besides a stodgy old white dude like every other year.

 

Have some fun guys, life is short and there's no such thing as an afterlife. Your bills will be due no matter who is president and you will be taxed the exact same. Barney the purple dinosaur could be president and not a damn thing in my life would change. Get over it.

You're probably too young to have voted in the 2000 election. Believe me, that one made a difference. Everyone and their mother was saying there was no difference between Bush and Gore. Well I think the last 15 years would've looked a whole helluva lot different if W had never been president.

[KSB2424 3,174]

Because somebody has to. The government is broke and constantly running deficits.

 

Correct, the Gov't....Federal, State and Local have to run the country, states and cities. Taxes are a necessity for things like infrastructure, roads, bridges, fire, police, schools, the poor, etc, etc. Most people understand this, and don't mind paying taxes. Most people even think a progressive tax system is good. Where the poor pay none, the middle pay some, and the rich pay most.

 

Where the disagreement lies, at least with most people I know is this..........

 

1. I'm not rich, far from it. I know that comes to a suprise as I am a Geek, but I admit it. With that said, we have a progressive tax system where the rich pay most of the taxes in this country. If we want to dibble and dabble here and there saying to raise capital gains 5% or the estate tax 5% or what-have-you based on latest data or economic conditions, then fine whatever. However I find it crazy when I hear Democrat President or others keep saying "The Rich Need To Pay Their Fair Share!@#!" That blows my mind. What exactly do these people think is "their fair share"? The rich pay most of the taxes already, ....I don't get it. It seems to me we would take all those taxes from the rich, like we do, and be quiet about it.

 

2. Most folks don't mind paying even high taxes IF they think the money is being spent welll and not wasted. As an analogy, its like giving to a charity. If people know the charity is legit, that it's going for good things and not being wasted, they will give and give plenty. As soon as the person realizes or thinks that charity is wasting money or corrupt.....they don't give one red cent. When the people see wasteful spending they immediatly get a bit preturbed about their taxes.

 

3. And for some reason the Spending side of the ledger always plays second fiddle to the Taxation side of the ledger. To run a business or a gov't any good CEO and CFO knows that both Accounts Payable and Accounts Recievable are equally important. We talk and talk about taxes, raising taxes on the rich, etc. Which is fine. We (well not we, but the current gov't) rarely seriously talks about spending. As soon as that comes up, the bureaucrats a-holes pucker up tighter than naomi's whoo-ha.

[parrot 789]

C. There is a reason for high thresholds. A million dollars disbursed between three kids isn't all that much of an inheritance.

 

 

You realize the median American family income is right around $50k, right? So an amount that it takes the median American family 6-7 years to earn, GROSS, isn't that much? A third of a million dollars is a windfall that the vast majority of Americans can't even dream of.

[hoytdwow 202]

 

2. Most folks don't mind paying even high taxes IF they think the money is being spent welll and not wasted. As an analogy, its like giving to a charity. If people know the charity is legit, that it's going for good things and not being wasted, they will give and give plenty. As soon as the person realizes or thinks that charity is wasting money or corrupt.....they don't give one red cent. When the people see wasteful spending they immediatly get a bit preturbed about their taxes.

 

 

I've always thought it interesting to explore the idea of people being able to allocate where their taxes go. Not at a super-granular level, but broadly. Say, I allocate 30% of my taxes to education, 20% to defense, and 50% to domestic spending/infrastructure. Then, Congress has to work in those parameters when allocating money.

[parrot 789]

That's just a pretty broad paintbrush though.

 

Say I'm dead with a bunch of money, it's already been taxed, why go after it again? If I want to set it on fire, donate it a food bank, have my dead beat son lose it at the poker tables and shitty cars, it's not for the government or anyone else to say what can be done with it posthumously.

 

It's income to your deadbeat son, and could be certainly be taxed as such, or at least as capital gains.

[parrot 789]

You don't want to curb investments, and I think the dead person already paid the tax on the money, why should the government get more?

 

Also, the dead person hasn't necessarily "paid the tax on the money". When estate assets are transferred, even those from exempt estates, the recipient gets a step up in basis to fair market value at the date of transfer. So no taxes are ever paid on any interim gain.

[KSB2424 3,174]

 

You realize the median American family income is right around $50k, right? So an amount that it takes the median American family 6-7 years to earn, GROSS, isn't that much? A third of a million dollars is a windfall that the vast majority of Americans can't even dream of.

 

I don't understand the point.

 

My point is that a hard working person, who finds himself saving all his life and accumulates 1 million in assets is a far cry from the uber uber rich with trust fund babies. And no, over the course of a lifetime it is not all that much. I find it crazy that a Father that saved and invested all this money for the betterment of his family upon his death.....

 

Kid 1: gets 200k

Kid 2: gets 200k

Kid 3: gets 200k

Federal Govt: rakes 400k of the top

 

It seems some of you have issues with trust fund babies of the uber rich. Which I get. But a Father or Mother accumulating 1M over the course of their entire lifetime to put their family in a good position going foward, isn't that.

 

THAT sir, is the American Dream.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

 

I don't understand the point.

 

My point is that a hard working person, who finds himself saving all his life and accumulates 1 million in assets is a far cry from the uber uber rich with trust fund babies. And no, over the course of a lifetime it is not all that much. I find it crazy that a Father that saved all this money for the betterment of his family upon his death.....

 

Kid 1: gets 200k

Kid 2: gets 200k

Kid 3: gets 200k

Federal Govt: rakes 400k of the top

 

It seems some of you have issues with trust fund babies of the uber rich. Which I get. But a Father or Mother accumulating 1M over the course of their lifetime to put their family in a good position going foward, isn't that. THAT sir, is the American Dream.

I thought the american dream was picking yourself up by your bootstraps? I didn't realize it was never having to lift a finger of your own because your great granddaddy made a lot of money.

[parrot 789]

 

I don't understand the point.

 

My point is that a hard working person, who finds himself saving all his life and accumulates 1 million in assets is a far cry from the uber uber rich with trust fund babies. And no, over the course of a lifetime it is not all that much. I find it crazy that a Father that saved and invested all this money for the betterment of his family upon his death.....

 

Kid 1: gets 200k

Kid 2: gets 200k

Kid 3: gets 200k

Federal Govt: rakes 400k of the top

 

It seems some of you have issues with trust fund babies of the uber rich. Which I get. But a Father or Mother accumulating 1M over the course of their entire lifetime to put their family in a good position going foward, isn't that.

 

THAT sir, is the American Dream.

 

Don't try to make this some grudge. I have issues with POLICIES that don't necessarily make sense to me.

 

$200k is more than the median American home price. A home is the biggest investment most people will ever make, and their mortgage the biggest nut they will have to cover month-to-month. You can poo-poo $200k all you want, but that would be a life-altering amount to most Americans.

 

As fo the the "American Dream"... My kids have been raised is a stable two-parent home with a strong emphasis on education. They will have the means to attend college and secondary school if they so desire. Maybe there will be some money left when the wife and I are done with it, but I'm not overly concerned about it. My dream is that my kids become self-sufficient and successful on their own, just like I did. If they can't do that with the advantages they will have, they probably don't deserve anything I would leave them anyway.

[KSB2424 3,174]

I thought the american dream was picking yourself up by your bootstraps? I didn't realize it was never having to lift a finger of your own because your great granddaddy made a lot of money.

 

You think getting a 300k inheritance means you never have to work or lift a finger?

 

The American Dream to me is this:

 

My Grand Parents lived in rural North Carolina, they were farmers, they were uneducated.

 

My Mom graduated High School, my Dad went into the Air Force which paid for his 2 year Technical school, they rose up to lower-middle class and saved to put me and my brother to college. I was the first in my family.

 

I am a middle class college graduate who hopes to keep the momemtum going and hope my sons do better than I am doing. And my grandchildren, God willing, do better than them.

 

Look, I get the "hate" (for lack of a better word) for the uber uber rich and trust fund babies and wanting to tax them. We do that now. There is a 40% Estate Tax on the uber rich. But lowering the threshold way down, you start to get out of the terrirtory of "trust fund babies" and into the terrirtory of first and second generation, hard working (but successful) & smart saving citizens.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

 

I don't understand the point.

 

My point is that a hard working person, who finds himself saving all his life and accumulates 1 million in assets is a far cry from the uber uber rich with trust fund babies. And no, over the course of a lifetime it is not all that much. I find it crazy that a Father that saved and invested all this money for the betterment of his family upon his death.....

 

Kid 1: gets 200k

Kid 2: gets 200k

Kid 3: gets 200k

Federal Govt: rakes 400k of the top

 

It seems some of you have issues with trust fund babies of the uber rich. Which I get. But a Father or Mother accumulating 1M over the course of their entire lifetime to put their family in a good position going foward, isn't that.

 

THAT sir, is the American Dream.

Why are you ignoring the 5 million dollar exemption? What am I missing?

[KSB2424 3,174]

Why are you ignoring the 5 million dollar exemption? What am I missing?

 

The "arguement" isn't about the current Estate tax law. 5M threshold at 40%

 

Worms, and it appears parrot, is okay with lowering that threshold, and raising the rate.

 

I disagreed and said that a person who accrues 1M (as an example) upon death, and dispursed to several beneficiaries isn't really all that much money so taxing it (again) upwards of 40% seems a bit....much. And going that low you get away from "trust fund babies" and into first and second generation hard working and smart saving people. So I have a bit of an issue with it.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

If the thought that the money has already been taxed once is applicable, what about the interest? Does that ever get taxed?

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

 

The "arguement" isn't about the current Estate tax law. 5M threshold at 40%

 

Worms, and it appears parrot, is okay with lowering that threshold, and raising the rate.

 

I disagreed and said that a person who accrues 1M (as an example) upon death, and dispursed to several beneficiaries isn't really all that much money so taxing it (again) upwards of 40% seems a bit....much. And going that low you get away from "trust fund babies" and into first and second generation hard working and smart saving people. So I have a bit of an issue with it.

But right now it's 5 million, right? Is that too low?

[parrot 789]

 

The "arguement" isn't about the current Estate tax law. 5M threshold at 40%

 

Worms, and it appears parrot, is okay with lowering that threshold, and raising the rate.

 

I disagreed and said that a person who accrues 1M (as an example) upon death, and dispursed to several beneficiaries isn't really all that much money so taxing it (again) upwards of 40% seems a bit....much. And going that low you get away from "trust fund babies" and into first and second generation hard working and smart saving people. So I have a bit of an issue with it.

 

To be clear, I don't think there should be a threshold or ANY rate for estates. I don't think estates should be taxed. It should simply be income or capital gains to the recipients.

 

I realize that this approach can be problematic in that many estates assets aren't necessarily liquid, like when a business is handed down, thus the wherewithal to pay isn't necessarily present. In those cases taxes wouldn't necessarily have to be paid at the time of transfer, but they also wouldn't get a step up in basis. Once the gains are realized, they can pay.

[KSB2424 3,174]

But right now it's 5 million, right? Is that too low?

 

 

I'm okay with a progressive tax code. So if we want to hit up the uber rich..... again....with a 40% tax on their Estate at death.....then....yeah sure why not.

 

Can we agree to stop saying the rich don't pay "their fair share!@#!" though?

 

My only issue came in when Worms said the threshold needs to be lowered and the rate upwards of 60%. All that seemed a bit obscene to me. It's the Bernie Sanders way of thinking though.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

 

 

I'm okay with a progressive tax code. So if we want to hit up the uber rich..... again....with a 40% tax on their Estate at death.....then....yeah sure why not.

 

Can we agree to stop saying the rich don't pay "their fair share!@#!" though?

 

My only issue came in when Worms said the threshold needs to be lowered and the rate upwards of 60%. All that seemed a bit obscene to me. It's the Bernie Sanders way of thinking though.

I think a 5 million dollar exemption is more than fair. And I think that Rich people who make their money off of labor are taxed enough. Rich people who make their money on capital are getting over, IMO. I don't think the two are the same and shouldn't be conflated.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

 

You think getting a 300k inheritance means you never have to work or lift a finger?

 

The American Dream to me is this:

 

My Grand Parents lived in rural North Carolina, they were farmers, they were uneducated.

 

My Mom graduated High School, my Dad went into the Air Force which paid for his 2 year Technical school, they rose up to lower-middle class and saved to put me and my brother to college. I was the first in my family.

 

I am a middle class college graduate who hopes to keep the momemtum going and hope my sons do better than I am doing. And my grandchildren, God willing, do better than them.

 

Look, I get the "hate" (for lack of a better word) for the uber uber rich and trust fund babies and wanting to tax them. We do that now. There is a 40% Estate Tax on the uber rich. But lowering the threshold way down, you start to get out of the terrirtory of "trust fund babies" and into the terrirtory of first and second generation, hard working (but successful) & smart saving citizens.

300k means you get a good education, debt-free, and put a sizeable down payment on a house, or maybe even own one free and clear. Like parrot said that puts you ahead of 95% of Americans right there.

 

$5.5 million means you could never have to lift a finger as long as you aren't completely stupid im depleting the principle.

 

Much more than that and you could lead a life of total luxury without ever doing a thing to earn it.

 

I get that maybe some people's dream is to make sure their kids don't ever have to do anything. I don't agree with that as a goal but that isn't even what this is about. What I'm saying is that if we have to prioritize taxing the guy who wants to make sure his heirs remain wealthy long after he is dead and gone, or taxing the middle class family that's just trying to make ends meet within their own lifetime, then I am going to choose the former and it is not even close.

 

Also this isn't about hatred of the rich, or "wealth envy", or any of that bullsh1t you keep trying to peddle despite having been called out on it numerous times now

[parrot 789]

I think a 5 million dollar exemption is more than fair. And I think that Rich people who make their money off of labor are taxed enough. Rich people who make their money on capital are getting over, IMO. I don't think the two are the same and shouldn't be conflated.

 

Keep in mind there is a $5+million lifetime gift exemption on top of that. There are yearly limits, but basically the wealthy can pass up to another $5 million along tax free while they're still alive as well.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Why are you ignoring the 5 million dollar exemption? What am I missing?

Doesn't suit his argument.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

 

 

I'm okay with a progressive tax code. So if we want to hit up the uber rich..... again....with a 40% tax on their Estate at death.....then....yeah sure why not.

 

Can we agree to stop saying the rich don't pay "their fair share!@#!" though?

 

My only issue came in when Worms said the threshold needs to be lowered and the rate upwards of 60%. All that seemed a bit obscene to me. It's the Bernie Sanders way of thinking though.

Did someone say that? I sure didn't.

 

Jeez I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

 

Keep in mind there is a $5+million lifetime gift exemption as well. There are yearly limits, but basically the wealthy can pass up to another $5 million along tax free while they're still alive as well.

Just goes to show you who the laws are being written on behalf of. The problem is, the rich have gotten so rich at this point that those thresholds aren't big enough anymore.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

I think a 5 million dollar exemption is more than fair. And I think that Rich people who make their money off of labor are taxed enough. Rich people who make their money on capital are getting over, IMO. I don't think the two are the same and shouldn't be conflated.

Very few people get rich off labor - it's almost entirely investments. You can make a pretty good chunk of change but just banking the excess of that will never make you truly wealthy.

[KSB2424 3,174]

Doesn't suit his argument.

 

We weren't aruging the current Estate tax law. I didn't want to change the law, you did.

 

All this started when you said:

 

Lower the exemption (it's something crazy like $5.5 million) and, yes, hike the rate to 60% or more.

 

And this

 

Why not just raise the bejesus out of the estate tax

[KSB2424 3,174]

Did someone say that? I sure didn't.

 

 

 

I didn't say YOU did, but it is said all the time by the POTUS and others in gov't.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXe3DGNI_Ms&feature=player_detailpage

[IGotWorms 4,063]

 

We weren't aruging the current tax law. I didn't want to change the law, you did.

 

All this started when you said:

 

 

And this

 

So you think a $1 million is too low (which, by the way, I don't think I ever threw out there as a number).

 

How about $2 million? Is $700k for each of your three children enough or would that still condemn them to the life of a peasant?

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

Very few people get rich off labor - it's almost entirely investments. You can make a pretty good chunk of change but just banking the excess of that will never make you truly wealthy.

Well, when the money goes into investment mode I think it should be taxed just like any other form of income. The rate for labor is fair as it is. The proof is there that Gains on capital don't necessarily translate in to jobs, like they claim. Wall Street made a lot of money on all those jobs created in China.

[KSB2424 3,174]

So you think a $1 million is too low (which, by the way, I don't think I ever threw out there as a number).

 

How about $2 million? Is $700k for each of your three children enough or would that still condemn them to the life of a peasant?

 

Again, I am for a progressive tax code so maybe at 1M its taxed at 10% and at 3M its taxed at 20% and at 5M its taxed at 30% and at 10M its taxed at 40%. Whatever, I get the Estate tax on the uber wealthy.

 

My issue is when folks like Bernie Sanders and apparently IGW's come out with obscene taxation ideas like:

 

and, yes, hike the rate to 60% or more.

 

Or Bernies comment

 

Nobody should make over a million dollars!@#!

 

 

 

It's one thing to be for a Progressive Tax Code where the rich pay most, which is what we have, which is what I'm fine with. It's another to be focking obscene about it in a complete Socialistic manner.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

 

Again, I am for a progressive tax code so maybe at 1M its taxed at 10% and at 3M its taxed at 20% and at 5M its taxed at 30% and at 10M its taxed at 40%. Whatever, I get the Estate tax on the uber wealthy.

 

My issue is when folks like Bernie Sanders and apparently IGW's come out with obcene taxation ideas like:

 

 

Or Bernies comment

 

 

 

 

It's one thing to be for a Progressive Tax Code where the rich pay most, which is what we have, which is what I'm fine with. It's another to be focking obscene about it in a complete Socialistic manner.

And I think those on the right that feel it shouldn't be taxed at all are just as obscene. What do you think the republican candidates feel on this issue? I bet to a man they all think it shouldn't be taxed at all. Isn't that just as extreme as IGW and Bernie? Why no outrage for their obscene ideas?

[parrot 789]

 

Keep in mind there is a $5+million lifetime gift exemption on top of that. There are yearly limits, but basically the wealthy can pass up to another $5 million along tax free while they're still alive as well.

 

Btw, I stated this incorrectly. The gift and estate exclusion are the same $5.5 mill. If you exceed the yearly limit on gifts it is applied against your eventual estate exclusion.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

 

I don't understand the point.

 

My point is that a hard working person, who finds himself saving all his life and accumulates 1 million in assets is a far cry from the uber uber rich with trust fund babies. And no, over the course of a lifetime it is not all that much. I find it crazy that a Father that saved and invested all this money for the betterment of his family upon his death.....

 

Kid 1: gets 200k

Kid 2: gets 200k

Kid 3: gets 200k

Federal Govt: rakes 400k of the top

 

It seems some of you have issues with trust fund babies of the uber rich. Which I get. But a Father or Mother accumulating 1M over the course of their entire lifetime to put their family in a good position going foward, isn't that.

 

THAT sir, is the American Dream.

You are assuming that anyone with money actually pays the listed tax rate.

 

There is a whole sh!tload of exemptions and loopholes you can drive a truck through. If you are smart, you pay no estate tax.