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Joey Gladstone

Allah praise the Baltimore Defense!

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Out of curiosity, how many points did they score in your league, and what is your average total team score weekly?

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What was that horrible stuff the Dolphins put on that football field tonight.

 

Wow that was horrible.

 

Last weeks games where awful and it looks like this weeks games could top them.

 

Dolphins fans should start to appreciate R Tannehill.

 

He isn't great but he's a lot better then what they have been stuck with this season.

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lets all draw pictures of allah watching the game...

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I had them in a DFS lineup on DK and they got 29 pts. It's a nice edge to have in a tourney. They were a bit chalky, but if you're in that contest and don't have them it makes it tough to cash. I did 2 Thur - Mon contests and only used them in the one. I hope the Saints can shut down the Bears. Rookie QB on the road, super dome can be loud, etc.

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Out of curiosity, how many points did they score in your league, and what is your average total team score weekly?

They got me 29 points last night. My team is averaging 110.5 points a week.

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They got me 29 points last night. My team is averaging 110.5 points a week.

Ok...that's proportionate. BAL got me 41 points, and my team averages about 140.

 

The reason I ask is because I structured our league's scoring to ensure that D/ST and K weren't simple afterthoughts. I have a graduated scoring system which rewards longer FGs, for instance, based upon length, just as longer TDs are worth more. My D/STs start with 16 points at the beginning of games, and get 6 pts for TDs + .1pts for every yard of the length of the TD past 10 yards. Same for all TD scoring (QBs baseline TD score is 4 points passing though, just to level the QB scoring). D/ST loses portions of that initial 16 points as they give up points; when they get to 27 points allowed, the number is 0. Beyond that, and it is -1 for every 3 points scored against. 2pts/int/fumrecov/sack.

 

I am now getting a couple of guys in this league that are complaining about D/ST scoring. They don't like that their D/ST scoring can range from 50 points at the absolute zenith (which I think JAX D/ST accomplished a couple of weeks back) to a slightly negative number (someone scored -3 when their D/ST gave up a ton of points and didn't have any sacks/int/fumbles to offset the negative).

 

Even a K scored something like 40 one week (forget who: 7 FGs IIRC; many of them over 45 yards, which equates to nearly 5 points per kick. I wanted each position's max scoring potential to be about the same, though QB tends to get there more often.

 

They consider D/ST scoring too 'lucky'. I said that's silly: it's no different than the 'luck' involved in so many of the other positions. They literally want the outcomes to come down to the other players, and not D. Their complaint is that "no player who is drafted in the 12th round should determine outcomes".

 

I told them: easy answer: draft earlier. You knew that D/ST could score a sht load if you have a good one! Moreover, there's always a ton of D/ST on the wire, so you can stream them!

 

*whine*whine*whine*

 

I :lol:d, but this may develop into a problem. The guy I laid 41 points on is whining that he's not going to put in another lineup all year - of course, he's near the bottom, and in our league, low points means paying for a dinner for the league at a local steakhouse (so: ~$1,500). I don't think he'd renege, but there's a risk.

 

I would like to hear what some FF posters say, though. :unsure:

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Ok...that's proportionate. BAL got me 41 points, and my team averages about 140.

 

The reason I ask is because I structured our league's scoring to ensure that D/ST and K weren't simple afterthoughts. I have a graduated scoring system which rewards longer FGs, for instance, based upon length, just as longer TDs are worth more. My D/STs start with 16 points at the beginning of games, and get 6 pts for TDs + .1pts for every yard of the length of the TD past 10 yards. Same for all TD scoring (QBs baseline TD score is 4 points passing though, just to level the QB scoring). D/ST loses portions of that initial 16 points as they give up points; when they get to 27 points allowed, the number is 0. Beyond that, and it is -1 for every 3 points scored against. 2pts/int/fumrecov/sack.

 

I am now getting a couple of guys in this league that are complaining about D/ST scoring. They don't like that their D/ST scoring can range from 50 points at the absolute zenith (which I think JAX D/ST accomplished a couple of weeks back) to a slightly negative number (someone scored -3 when their D/ST gave up a ton of points and didn't have any sacks/int/fumbles to offset the negative).

 

Even a K scored something like 40 one week (forget who: 7 FGs IIRC; many of them over 45 yards, which equates to nearly 5 points per kick. I wanted each position's max scoring potential to be about the same, though QB tends to get there more often.

 

They consider D/ST scoring too 'lucky'. I said that's silly: it's no different than the 'luck' involved in so many of the other positions. They literally want the outcomes to come down to the other players, and not D. Their complaint is that "no player who is drafted in the 12th round should determine outcomes".

 

I told them: easy answer: draft earlier. You knew that D/ST could score a sht load if you have a good one! Moreover, there's always a ton of D/ST on the wire, so you can stream them!

 

*whine*whine*whine*

 

I :lol:d, but this may develop into a problem. The guy I laid 41 points on is whining that he's not going to put in another lineup all year - of course, he's near the bottom, and in our league, low points means paying for a dinner for the league at a local steakhouse (so: ~$1,500). I don't think he'd renege, but there's a risk.

 

I would like to hear what some FF posters say, though. :unsure:

 

 

 

16 points seems like a lot to start off with, and 2 seems like a lot of points for a sack...

 

we award 2 points per TO, and 1pt per sack, plus scoring incentive that starts at 10 then doesn't drop off quite as quickly

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CBS starts them off at 24. It's scary. Two opponents in my league had the Miami DST vs. Baltimore DST. The score is 2-37. I'm pretty sure that dude already lost this week. That sucks.

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They consider D/ST scoring too 'lucky'. I said that's silly: it's no different than the 'luck' involved in so many of the other positions. They literally want the outcomes to come down to the other players, and not D. Their complaint is that "no player who is drafted in the 12th round should determine outcomes".

 

I told them: easy answer: draft earlier. You knew that D/ST could score a sht load if you have a good one! Moreover, there's always a ton of D/ST on the wire, so you can stream them!

 

 

Our DST system is similar to yours. I have graduated points allowed, but a shutout is worth 20 points. We also only award 3 points for at DST TD (trying to take the luck out of the DST scoring as most of these returns have nothing to do with how good your defense is) The scoring system is weighted heavily for

1 - Points against (Max 20 - Min -8)

2- Yards Against (Max 10 - Min -5)

Then Turnovers 2 points ea, then sacks .5 points ea.

As mentioned above returns are only worth 3 point not 6 - turnovers, especially returns are as much a product of bad offense as they are good defense

In addition if the team wins their game and hold the offense under 20 points allowed, you get additional 3 points for a team DST win. Baltimore got 37 points last night, and our league good team average 95-100 points per game.

 

As for people complaining about a 12th round pick making a big difference, draft defenses earlier. I've had this system in place for over 7 years now and guess what, defenses are drafted in starting in about the 7-8th round because the good ones produce and the bad ones hurt you. Whenever we get a new player in the league i review the defensive scoring with them and explain it's a bit different and show them last year's results. Typically they don't pay attention and get burned waiting on a defense, after that they start drafting them in higher rounds. It's not that hard to make defenses matter.

 

I've still not found a great system that differentiates QB's and Kickers, but Defenses aren't that hard to make important.

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Yahoo Pro Leagues have similar scoring to several here. Ravens got 29pts last night: 10 pts for shutout, 6pts for TDs, 2pts for turnovers, 1pts for sacks. The only things I think a D should get points for but do not are 4th down stops.

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Yahoo Pro Leagues have similar scoring to several here. Ravens got 29pts last night: 10 pts for shutout, 6pts for TDs, 2pts for turnovers, 1pts for sacks. The only things I think a D should get points for but do not are 4th down stops.

Thanks for the input guys.

 

One thing I need to change - if I can (CBS) is seeing an opposing team's D/ST get a pick 6 against your D/ST's QB, and have count as points against your D/ST. I don't think that's right.

 

But that may accentuate this complaint I'm getting; not the other way around.

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Yahoo Pro Leagues have similar scoring to several here. Ravens got 29pts last night: 10 pts for shutout, 6pts for TDs, 2pts for turnovers, 1pts for sacks. The only things I think a D should get points for but do not are 4th down stops.

Another thing I've had to change this year is # of FLEX players. Last year's complaint was that teams were hoarding RBs (a silly claim IMO anyway: benches are 16 players). So I went to 1RB, 1TE and 1WR, and 3 FLEX.

 

The thought on hoarding wrt D/ST is that making them more relevant also makes it more likely for teams to carry more than one D/ST on their roster, thus squelching skill position hoarding for lack of as many available roster spots to do so.

 

I have 3 D/STs ATM: Ravens, Lions and PIT. That also means that it is really hard to hoard RBs (I've also had DJ carried on my roster the entire year, which I can just see is going to be useless :rolleyes:). Somehow, I'm power-ranked #1 in that league, though I can't understand why (CBS is goofy: they send an email breaking down power in an article, and then contradict their rankings right on the site when you hit power rankings - anyone else get that??).

 

There is no question that three factors have played heavily into keeping my head above water: picking up McKinnon, Zeuerlein and playing this D/ST rotisserie.

 

So the biatching continues.

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Thanks for the input guys.

 

One thing I need to change - if I can (CBS) is seeing an opposing team's D/ST get a pick 6 against your D/ST's QB, and have count as points against your D/ST. I don't think that's right.

 

But that may accentuate this complaint I'm getting; not the other way around.

I know Yahoo doesn't count the defensive TDs against the opposing D. It does count the point after/2pt conversion. That's actually another thing that I don't think get counted for Defenses in these leagues but should, 2pt stops.

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Actually, for anyone who cares here are the settings:

 

Defense/Special Teams League Value: Sack 1 Interception 2 Fumble Recovery 2 Touchdown 6 Safety 2 Block Kick 2 Kickoff and Punt Return Touchdowns 6 Points Allowed 0 points 10 Points Allowed 1-6 points 7 Points Allowed 7-13 points 4 Points Allowed 14-20 points 1 Points Allowed 21-27 points 0 Points Allowed 28-34 points -1 Points Allowed 35+ points -4 Extra Point Returned 2

 

Sorry, this was a table when I pasted it.

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Our league gives D/ST a point for each 3 and out. I think 4th down stops should also be worth a point but I don't know if that is an option.

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Thanks for the input guys.

 

One thing I need to change - if I can (CBS) is seeing an opposing team's D/ST get a pick 6 against your D/ST's QB, and have count as points against your D/ST. I don't think that's right.

 

But that may accentuate this complaint I'm getting; not the other way around.

CBS has a setting for DSTPA - which is DST points allowed. Use that, not the PA - Points Allowed. This only counts points against the defense/special teams units.

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One other point on DST scoring and why standard scoring for DST's does reduce to basically luck is that 6 points for a return is disproportionate to scoring for points allowed in standard scoring systems.

 

Detroit in Week 6 gives up 379 yards and 34 points to new orleans, Substandard in any way to helping an NFL team win, but they record 3 turnovers and return TD's = 18 points in standard scoring.

 

In my scoring system, That same game is worth 4 points due to less emphasis on defensive returns and more emphasis on actually playing defense (points and yards allowed)

 

This makes defenses more predictable statistically and more draftable.

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Actually, for anyone who cares here are the settings:

 

Defense/Special Teams League Value: Sack 1 Interception 2 Fumble Recovery 2 Touchdown 6 Safety 2 Block Kick 2 Kickoff and Punt Return Touchdowns 6 Points Allowed 0 points 10 Points Allowed 1-6 points 7 Points Allowed 7-13 points 4 Points Allowed 14-20 points 1 Points Allowed 21-27 points 0 Points Allowed 28-34 points -1 Points Allowed 35+ points -4 Extra Point Returned 2

 

Sorry, this was a table when I pasted it.

 

My league has 1 point for a sack as well. Why is this? I was going to bring this up actually to my league.Of all defensive plays that are pure defensive achievement, the QB sack has to be the most indicative of the skill of the def. DB's are probably doing their job, and d-line is doing their job. Granted the offensive can mess up by a bad snap or missed assignment, but usually these happen because the defense is ruling that play.

 

Interceptions, def. touchdowns, safeties, and fumbles can be fluky at a higher % of time than sacks. Sometime a receiver runs a wrong route. sometimes def. touchdowns can be caused by an offensive player just fumbling the ball. Fumbling can often times not be attributed to a good play by the def. Safeties often can be a bad snap or fumble in the endzone recovered by off.

 

All of these are higher % of times where the offense just has a boneheaded play by one person. Defensive sacks are more like the defense out-scheming the offense or just physically dominating. Why are sacks the least amount of points of all of them?

 

Jacksonville got 10 sacks in 1 game this year. 10 points for that only? That's like a QB getting 5 touchdowns and only getting like 15 points for that effort.

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My league has 1 point for a sack as well. Why is this? I was going to bring this up actually to my league.Of all defensive plays that are pure defensive achievement, the QB sack has to be the most indicative of the skill of the def. DB's are probably doing their job, and d-line is doing their job. Granted the offensive can mess up by a bad snap or missed assignment, but usually these happen because the defense is ruling that play.

 

Interceptions, def. touchdowns, safeties, and fumbles can be fluky at a higher % of time than sacks. Sometime a receiver runs a wrong route. sometimes def. touchdowns can be caused by an offensive player just fumbling the ball. Fumbling can often times not be attributed to a good play by the def. Safeties often can be a bad snap or fumble in the endzone recovered by off.

 

All of these are higher % of times where the offense just has a boneheaded play by one person. Defensive sacks are more like the defense out-scheming the offense or just physically dominating. Why are sacks the least amount of points of all of them?

 

Jacksonville got 10 sacks in 1 game this year. 10 points for that only? That's like a QB getting 5 touchdowns and only getting like 15 points for that effort.

 

I don't know. I see a lot of sacks that are pure personal effort on the part of one player. Some sacks are coverage sacks, the DBs are making the QB hold the ball longer, etc. Some sacks are clearly enabled by another blitzer pulling a lineman away from his assignment. But some are just 'one guy beats another guy'. I don't know percentages, but it doesn't seem to me that a clear majority are one type or another. I have plenty of fond memories of Reggie White just plain throwing an offensive lineman onto his azz moments after the snap. :) That had little to do with anyone else on the field.

 

Similarly, plenty of INTs are caused by QB pressure up front, to the point that I don't know that INTs are any more 'one player achievements' than sacks are. It would be interesting to see statistics.

 

4th down stops, yards allowed, and points allowed are all clearly more team-based.

 

But maybe forced fumbles and fumble recoveries are more one-player driver. That you are tackling the RB, or that the QB is being sacked, can depend on what lots of other guys are doing. But if you are hitting the ball with your hand or helmet, if you're tackling with good technique, or if you are hustling to get that loose ball, that doesn't seem to depend on what's going on elsewhere.

 

Interesting question.

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There are a couple of tricky things about this question. We draft defenses partly because of the individuals on that defense, so individual efforts count towards team totals.

 

Perhaps ideally we should all be playing IDP leagues - but that's a lot of work, and I think a whole lot of team owners would bag leagues due to the work involved.

 

Beyond that, it's easy to see how a D/ST which is getting a ton of sacks will also not be allowing a whole lot of yards as well, save for outlier games, so I suppose if one is scoring via the method in shutdown's league, the two stats will stack: tons of sacks = reduced yardage allowed, so scoring 1 pt/sack is probably more appropriate than scoring 2pt/sack.

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All interesting inputs. I wonder how I would design offensive team scoring if I started an IDP league with only team offense options for rostering. So just opposite what we are discussing.

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There are a couple of tricky things about this question. We draft defenses partly because of the individuals on that defense, so individual efforts count towards team totals.

 

Perhaps ideally we should all be playing IDP leagues - but that's a lot of work, and I think a whole lot of team owners would bag leagues due to the work involved.

 

Beyond that, it's easy to see how a D/ST which is getting a ton of sacks will also not be allowing a whole lot of yards as well, save for outlier games, so I suppose if one is scoring via the method in shutdown's league, the two stats will stack: tons of sacks = reduced yardage allowed, so scoring 1 pt/sack is probably more appropriate than scoring 2pt/sack.

Your comment reminded me, when I first started playing in high school we would give pts to a D for holding the opponents under 100yds rushing and 300yds passings each. I don't recall how many points though.

 

Concerning sacks: I don't have an issue with 1pt per sack. A sack doesn't constitute a change of possesion and when it does (a sack fumble) the D gets 3pts credited to it (1 for the sack and 2 for the fumble recovery). A team can get a sack, but then turnaround and give everything back the next play nullifying the effect of the sack. I do believe safeties should be worth more than 2pts in fantasy. It's difficult to get a safety and at least in a real game the team usually gets the ball back (assuming there isn't an onside kick recovery). I think in fantasy they should be worth at least 4pts, 2 for the points and 2 for the probable change in possession. Now that I think about it, onside recoveries should also be worth points in fantasy.

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All interesting inputs. I wonder how I would design offensive team scoring if I started an IDP league with only team offense options for rostering. So just opposite what we are discussing.

 

Categories:

 

Total Points

Total Yards (makes no sense to split unless you would have bonuses, then go with Rush Yards and Pass Yards)

First Downs

Penalized for each three-and-out

Penalized for Turnovers

You could maybe even value TDs more than FGs...so give them 3 pts per TD and 1 pt per FG, for example.

Big Plays (runs over X yards, passes over Y yards)

Plus points for 4th down conversions, penalized for being stopped on 4th down

Bonuses for cool TD celebrations, penalties for lame ones

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