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Ray_T

First Round NFL Mock?

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Hey, for those of you who like to speculate on what's going to happen in the draft, this is the thread for you.

I"m gonna lay out some speculation now.

1)  do the Cards really have an interest in Kyler Murray?

They already have Josh Rosen.

for me, there are two possible considerations:   1) they are pretending to have interest in a QB.  maybe they will interview or work out another one or two before draft day.   The reality is this team has a lot of holes they need to fix.  one of them is the O line.  PFF rated the cards O line as dead last in the NFL.   Maybe the smart move is to trade down, get a couple extra picks and retool that line.  I know Rosen didnt have a great rookie season, but I dont see a lot of rookie QB's who would perform behind that line.   Drafting a new QB wont fix that problem.   Even if Rosen is not the guy,  a poor O line is a good way to ruin your rookie QB prospects.    They need to fix it.   Based on that rationale, I am predicting they trade down if a decent offer comes along, then they grab an O lineman (or possibly two O linemen) and set themselves up that way.    2) the other possibility is that they actually are interested in Kyler Murray.  That being the case, they may trade Rosen for a player or a pick.  Hopefully they get help for that O line one way or another.  I dont see Murray performing behind that terrible line either.    see the problem?  not addressing the O line just leads to more problems.  This is why I dont think they pick a QB here.

 

2) Are the Giants truly committed to Eli Manning?

I think the answer to this is actually yes.    A year ago they were in the same place the Cards were in terms of their O line problems.    They signed Solder and drafted Hernandez and completely rebuilt half the line.  While Solder is now 30, they have to realize this is likely a 3 year fix.   They should draft his replacement now, and let him play at RT until he is able to take over at LT.  I think they take Jaywaan Taylor or Johah Williams here.    The other reason I think the Giants do this:  Manning quietly had a good season last year.  he quietly threw for 4300 yards.   I also think having a top O line when Eli retires means that Eli's replacement can play with protection.  I think this is an important thing for a rookie.   If it turns out I'm wrong, and Eli stinks the joint out, they will be able to draft a top QB in a far better class and put him into a position to succeed immediately.   There's really no downside here.    The other newly acquired first round pick and their second round pick can address the defensive issues which I feel are substantial.

 

anyhow, I've addressed two of the teams drafting near the top this year.  I welcome discussion on these or any of the other projected high draft picks.

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I'm not sure what the cards are doing, I don't think they even know but a sticking point is what they can get for Rosen and I don't think they like what they are hearing thus far. As for the Gmen, This is Eli's last year, his contract is up and unless he is willing to come back for peanuts and potentially as a backup, this will be the last year of his career. My sense is the Giants don't want to trade up for Haskins but would happily grab him at 6, or else lock at 17, or Daniel Jones at 37. I personally want them to tank for Tua, but that's not the Giants way.

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I still think the right move is to draft an OT to finish the rebuild of the O line.   then draft a QB next year.   its a deeper draft for QB's so they may well get an equally good (or better) QB without having to trade up to do it.

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1 hour ago, Ray_T said:

I still think the right move is to draft an OT to finish the rebuild of the O line.   then draft a QB next year.   its a deeper draft for QB's so they may well get an equally good (or better) QB without having to trade up to do it.

I'm on board with that strategy, as I have made obvious that I like Tua, probably better than anyone drafted last year also, save Baker. However, the Giants want to get a QB in this year so he can learn from Eli before he's gone. I would be surprised if they didn't wind up with Haskins, Lock or Jones on draft day.

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i keep telling myself that everything is ok because DAL's 1st round pick was amari and there's nothing to be sad about.

 

 

 

 

but i know i'm lying.

 

 

 

 

 

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ss -

you gotta be at least hopeful about how cooper performed after being traded right?

 

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Cards are taking Murray point blank.

Kings said he wanted him a while ago.  Now he has the chance.  New coach.  His QB.

It is said Rosen doesnt prep like a true NFL QB.  Rosen will hear for months how they want to trade him.

You think after all that they are just going to be like "hey josh you are actually our guy.  We were just kidding about not wanting you after we just drafted you last year.  Hope you understand!"

 

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1 hour ago, listen2me 23 said:

Cards are taking Murray point blank.

Kings said he wanted him a while ago.  Now he has the chance.  New coach.  His QB.

It is said Rosen doesnt prep like a true NFL QB.  Rosen will hear for months how they want to trade him.

You think after all that they are just going to be like "hey josh you are actually our guy.  We were just kidding about not wanting you after we just drafted you last year.  Hope you understand!"

 

At no point in time have the Cards said anything negative about Rosen. The only thing they are doing is trying to drive up the price of whatever it is they plan to do. It'd be easy for them to pass on Murray and simply tell Rosen that they never had any real interest in Murray they just wanted to drive up the price for a potential trade of the first overall pick.

The Cards know if they are taking Murray, but they have played it real close to the vest. I think they will, but not even the most well tied Cards insiders have anything concrete, it's all conjecture at this point.

Kings comments saying he would take Murray #1 if he had the pick, were from the week before he played Murray. It's pretty standard to praise your opponent and give the most glowing compliments during that time. So take that comment with a grain of salt.

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1 hour ago, Brutal Brutus said:

At no point in time have the Cards said anything negative about Rosen. The only thing they are doing is trying to drive up the price of whatever it is they plan to do. It'd be easy for them to pass on Murray and simply tell Rosen that they never had any real interest in Murray they just wanted to drive up the price for a potential trade of the first overall pick.

The Cards know if they are taking Murray, but they have played it real close to the vest. I think they will, but not even the most well tied Cards insiders have anything concrete, it's all conjecture at this point.

Kings comments saying he would take Murray #1 if he had the pick, were from the week before he played Murray. It's pretty standard to praise your opponent and give the most glowing compliments during that time. So take that comment with a grain of salt.

I dont see how acting like taking Murray is driving up the price?  If they are willing to trade with Oakland then it is pretty obvious what they would be doing.  

And it isnt simple to tell Josh Rosen that.  He had a big personality and is already said to be lackluster in prep for a QB and a loner among teammates.  

You dont bring in a guy like Kliff at head coach then strap him with a guy that is nothing like what he wants all while basically bashing Rosen in the process.  That would be stupid and setting your coach up for failure.     

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9 hours ago, ralphster said:

ss -

you gotta be at least hopeful about how cooper performed after being traded right?

 


absolutely, but that doesn't help when everyone else is having fun for draft season and your team doesn't have a 1st rounder.

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The cards are taking Murray. I think the move to hire Kingsbury doesn't make a whole lot of sense without drafting Murray. Kingsbury wasn't even that good of a college coach... 

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What it the best/most realistic landing spot for Murray?  I have 1.02 in my rookie draft superflex dynasty, and 1.01 team is pretty roster heavy on young QBs and needs WR depth.  I think he will be there if I want him.

What natural fits on draft day would immediately create a high value dynasty rookie day 1?  Jacobs or Metcalf to Kansas City?  TE to New England in the 1st?

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On 3/23/2019 at 7:08 PM, Frozenbeernuts said:

The cards are taking Murray. I think the move to hire Kingsbury doesn't make a whole lot of sense without drafting Murray. Kingsbury wasn't even that good of a college coach... 

you might be right.

but 

If they do this, they still have not addressed the line issue.  

Make no mistake about it... this was likely the worst line in the NFL last season.  I dont know that you can stick a rookie in behind that line and expect success.

to that end, I think this is a mistake.   Personally, I'd be hoping that somebody offers multiple first & second round picks to obtain the #1 overall, and I'd trade down, grab an OT in round 1 and possibly a guard in round 2 or 3.

alternatively, they can grab a game changing DT or Edge player to stack the Defense.  (as those seem to be the best talents in the draft, might as well get one)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ray_T said:

you might be right.

but 

If they do this, they still have not addressed the line issue.  

Make no mistake about it... this was likely the worst line in the NFL last season.  I dont know that you can stick a rookie in behind that line and expect success.

to that end, I think this is a mistake.   Personally, I'd be hoping that somebody offers multiple first & second round picks to obtain the #1 overall, and I'd trade down, grab an OT in round 1 and possibly a guard in round 2 or 3.

alternatively, they can grab a game changing DT or Edge player to stack the Defense.  (as those seem to be the best talents in the draft, might as well get one)

 

 

They added three O-linemen this off season and they seem content with that. They could add one or two in the middle rounds, but I expect the first round pick to be Murray or a defensive linemen and the second rounder to be a WR. If they trade down, they probably go best player available, which could be an offensive lineman, but don't expect the Cardinals to reach for one. 

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1 hour ago, Brutal Brutus said:

They added three O-linemen this off season and they seem content with that. They could add one or two in the middle rounds, but I expect the first round pick to be Murray or a defensive linemen and the second rounder to be a WR. If they trade down, they probably go best player available, which could be an offensive lineman, but don't expect the Cardinals to reach for one. 

I was not suggesting grabbing an OT with a top 3 pick.    in this draft that would not make sense.   a top 5 pick should be BPA (best player available) regardless of position.   or you trade down and try to get what you really want/need there.

I think the trade down scenario makes sense.

Sweezy, Garcia, and Gilbert are the new additions from the look of it.

Gilbert I think will help.  It's tough to say how the other two will perform.  I agree the line cant possibly be as bad as they were last year.

This may work depending on situation and scheme.   I dont think any of these guys by themselves is good enough to turn around the unit in a big way.   I think their addition likely means they wont be the worst in the NFL, but I do think they still need the addition of one good talent in the draft.    I suppose if the line is at least 'average' that's still better than where they were last year.  

either way, this was a good point you made.   Thanks for your reply.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ray_T said:

I was not suggesting grabbing an OT with a top 3 pick.    in this draft that would not make sense.   a top 5 pick should be BPA (best player available) regardless of position.   or you trade down and try to get what you really want/need there.

I think the trade down scenario makes sense.

Sweezy, Garcia, and Gilbert are the new additions from the look of it.

Gilbert I think will help.  It's tough to say how the other two will perform.  I agree the line cant possibly be as bad as they were last year.

This may work depending on situation and scheme.   I dont think any of these guys by themselves is good enough to turn around the unit in a big way.   I think their addition likely means they wont be the worst in the NFL, but I do think they still need the addition of one good talent in the draft.    I suppose if the line is at least 'average' that's still better than where they were last year.  

 either way, this was a good point you made.   Thanks for your reply.

 

 

My response was purely from what I've heard from the  local reporters in AZ. Adding the right lineman in the mid first if they trade down makes perfect sense to me.  

The three lineman they added could be complete trash, or could turn the unit around. I honestly have no idea. The local media has built them up into being some decent additions, but they seem to all have injury histories, which has bitten the Cardinals the past few years. Their goal entering the off season was to add depth across the line, rather than make a big splash signing. 

It sounds like Sweezy will step in at RG, Gilbert at RT, while Garcia could battle for LG or just be depth. Their LT Humphries is in a make or break year. He was their last highly drafted lineman, taking him in the first round 3 or 4 years ago. If he struggles or continues to have injury problems, this entire unit will be bad again.  Center is the only position they are set at. Their incumbent center got hurt in preseason last year, but they had a rookie come in and was the only member of the group that graded out well last year. The loser of that competition may just slide over to LG.  

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4 minutes ago, Brutal Brutus said:

My response was purely from what I've heard from the  local reporters in AZ. Adding the right lineman in the mid first if they trade down makes perfect sense to me.  

The three lineman they added could be complete trash, or could turn the unit around. I honestly have no idea. The local media has built them up into being some decent additions, but they seem to all have injury histories, which has bitten the Cardinals the past few years. Their goal entering the off season was to add depth across the line, rather than make a big splash signing. 

It sounds like Sweezy will step in at RG, Gilbert at RT, while Garcia could battle for LG or just be depth. Their LT Humphries is in a make or break year. He was their last highly drafted lineman, taking him in the first round 3 or 4 years ago. If he struggles or continues to have injury problems, this entire unit will be bad again.  Center is the only position they are set at. Their incumbent center got hurt in preseason last year, but they had a rookie come in and was the only member of the group that graded out well last year. The loser of that competition may just slide over to LG.  

from what I saw Gilbert was the only player that was reasonably well regarded when it came to PFF rankings.   while I agree their rankings are not everything, they usually are not that far off the mark.

but like I said earlier, sometimes scheme makes a difference, and a good scheme can cover up certain player weaknesses while exploiting their strengths.   with an O line it is just as much about teamwork as it is talent.  so the change of scenery may make a difference for the other two players.  its a bit of a crapshoot.    but it is also worth saying that sometimes a player will perform substantially better if they have a solid player playing beside them.  

Anyhow, you are correct in the fact this line may not be as bad as advertised (all things considered)

Thanks again for the comments and insights.

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If they dont like Murray and want to stick with a QB who doesnt fit what Kliff wants to do....they need a partner to trade with.  It is hard to move out of the 1st spot many years.  

If they did move back I doubt it woulf be too far.  Oakland I have heard like Murray a lot and would take him 1st if they had that pick.  That would be down to #4.  I suppose they could attemp 2 trade downs....but then again would have to find 2 teams to tango with.

From everything I have read there is no olinemen worth of a top 10 pick and if one goes top 10 it would be purely on need and position moving them up.  

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14 hours ago, listen2me 23 said:

If they dont like Murray and want to stick with a QB who doesnt fit what Kliff wants to do....they need a partner to trade with.  It is hard to move out of the 1st spot many years.  

If they did move back I doubt it woulf be too far.  Oakland I have heard like Murray a lot and would take him 1st if they had that pick.  That would be down to #4.  I suppose they could attemp 2 trade downs....but then again would have to find 2 teams to tango with.

From everything I have read there is no olinemen worth of a top 10 pick and if one goes top 10 it would be purely on need and position moving them up.  

I agree. if they trade down, they dont go down by more than 6 or 7 slots in the draft.   

but....

then again, if someone offers a kings ransom, maybe they consider it.  I suppose it really depends just how sweet the offer in question happens to be.

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22 minutes ago, Ray_T said:

I agree. if they trade down, they dont go down by more than 6 or 7 slots in the draft.   

but....

then again, if someone offers a kings ransom, maybe they consider it.  I suppose it really depends just how sweet the offer in question happens to be.

Who from mid pack is trading from mid draft to get Murray?  Dolphins are the only team at 13.  I have the sense they are tanking for a top 5 pick next year and going from there.  To go from 13 to 1 you are giving up your future.  The Dolphins have a bad roster as is.   That is the only possible trading partner for Murray other than to Raiders or Giants.  And Giants dont seem like the team to do that.  

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1 hour ago, listen2me 23 said:

Who from mid pack is trading from mid draft to get Murray?  Dolphins are the only team at 13.  I have the sense they are tanking for a top 5 pick next year and going from there.  To go from 13 to 1 you are giving up your future.  The Dolphins have a bad roster as is.   That is the only possible trading partner for Murray other than to Raiders or Giants.  And Giants dont seem like the team to do that.  

Not only are there a lack of trade partners in the middle picks, I get the feeling the Cardinals don't want to move very far down. This is a team that needs impact players, and if they do trade, they want to still be in a position to land a player who could be a franchise corner stone on the defensive side of the ball. I think there dream scenarios are to either trade the pick to the Raiders, or draft Murray and trade Rosen to the Giants for their #17.  I think the latter is what they are hoping to do, and I think it makes sense for the Giants. The only way for them to salvage trading away OBJ, for what most view as a well below market return, is if they can turn it into a franchise QB.

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2 hours ago, listen2me 23 said:

Who from mid pack is trading from mid draft to get Murray?  Dolphins are the only team at 13.  I have the sense they are tanking for a top 5 pick next year and going from there.  To go from 13 to 1 you are giving up your future.  The Dolphins have a bad roster as is.   That is the only possible trading partner for Murray other than to Raiders or Giants.  And Giants dont seem like the team to do that.  

teams have done far more stupid things than this.  Maybe Miami likes someone in particular and is willing to trade up to get him.

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8 minutes ago, Brutal Brutus said:

Not only are there a lack of trade partners in the middle rounds, I get the feeling the Cardinals don't want to move very far down. This is a team that needs impact players, and if they do trade, they want to still be in a position to land a player who could be a franchise corner stone on the defensive side of the ball. I think there dream scenarios are to either trade the pick to the Raiders, or draft Murray and trade Rosen to the Giants for their #17.  I think the latter is what they are hoping to do, and I think it makes sense for the Giants. The only way for them to salvage trading away OBJ, for what most view as a well below market return, is if they can turn it into a franchise QB.

I could see Tampa trading up.   Possibly the Giants.   while I think the Giants shouldnt trade up, that does not mean they wont do it.

Denver has Flacco, but they may draft someone to sit and learn for a year before making him a starter.   Whether they want to trade up to do it is another matter.

it is also possible that someone who does not want a QB may trade up.   this may allow them to move down only a couple slots in the draft.

 

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32 minutes ago, Brutal Brutus said:

Not only are there a lack of trade partners in the middle picks, I get the feeling the Cardinals don't want to move very far down. This is a team that needs impact players, and if they do trade, they want to still be in a position to land a player who could be a franchise corner stone on the defensive side of the ball. I think there dream scenarios are to either trade the pick to the Raiders, or draft Murray and trade Rosen to the Giants for their #17.  I think the latter is what they are hoping to do, and I think it makes sense for the Giants. The only way for them to salvage trading away OBJ, for what most view as a well below market return, is if they can turn it into a franchise QB.

It is said they will only get a 3rd for Rosen.  Some GM said that around the combine.

Arizona Cardinals QB Josh Rosen has been the subject of internal discussions by the New York Giants, although the discussions were described as 'extremely preliminary,' according to a source.

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21 minutes ago, Ray_T said:

I could see Tampa trading up.   Possibly the Giants.   while I think the Giants shouldnt trade up, that does not mean they wont do it.

Denver has Flacco, but they may draft someone to sit and learn for a year before making him a starter.   Whether they want to trade up to do it is another matter.

it is also possible that someone who does not want a QB may trade up.   this may allow them to move down only a couple slots in the draft.

 

Tampa is rolling with Winston who Arians likes.

NY not sure how much interest in Murray.

Elways obviously likes huge QBs.  That isnt Murray.

No chance a team trades up to number 1 for a non QB.  Zero.

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The Bills had no o-line, Josh Allen even got hurt and missed a couple games... he had no WR's... and he's fine. Showed/played better than many draftniks expected too with all of that.

If Murray is their guy, they should pick him. You don't mess around with the QB position or "settle" if that's how they really feel about Rosen.
(I'd want Haskins based on prototypical success. But Murray perfectly fits that offensive scheme so he'll be the #1 pick.)

Getting your QB is the exception to 'always trade down.'

 

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2 hours ago, listen2me 23 said:

Tampa is rolling with Winston who Arians likes.

NY not sure how much interest in Murray.

Elways obviously likes huge QBs.  That isnt Murray.

No chance a team trades up to number 1 for a non QB.  Zero.

as for Elway,  what makes you think he'd trade up to get Murray.  I've seen quite a few scouting rankings and Murray was not the top ranked QB on quite a few of the boards I saw. 

To me that means he is not even a lock to be the first QB selected.   Denver may actually move up to select someone else.

Either way, I guess who trades up to #1 largely depends on who needs a QB and how badly.   

like I said, if nobody wants to move up to take a QB, I could see someone in the top 3 or 4 picks moving up for the price of a 2nd round pick (or something of the like)  but I dont see any obscene offers coming out of the woodwork for a QB.   That being said, I said the same thing last year, and some crazy (in my opinion) deals got made.

Sometimes I suspect these decisions are sometimes made not by the GM but by the crazy owner of the franchise.   I have no proof of this, but I suspect it happens.

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it is also worth noting that if AZ is picking a QB, they may have evaluated other QB's on the board.   There is no guarantee that Kyler is the man.   He might be.... but he also might not be.

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The Rosen Rumor mill is working overtime today. The latest has it that the Giants, Chargers, and Pats are interested, with one of those teams offering a 2nd rounder. The cards are hoping for a 1st rounder. I don't believe anything I see or hear from these reporters anymore, but less than a month before the draft there are probably a lot of conversations going on and a lot of stuff being leaked for a reason...

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of course. 

the more perceived interest, the greater the chance someone makes a stupid offer.

To me, this is why I think the Cards actually trade down.  it feels like they are trying to find out the market.

If they want to get one of the top 3 or 4 defensive prospects, they likely need more than a 2nd to move down more than 3 or 4 slots.  If only moving down a slot or two I could (Maybe) see a second round pick getting it done.

Realistically, if they are not getting an extra 1st round pick(or the equivalent) I cant see them moving down in this draft.

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1 hour ago, Ray_T said:

as for Elway,  what makes you think he'd trade up to get Murray.  I've seen quite a few scouting rankings and Murray was not the top ranked QB on quite a few of the boards I saw. 

To me that means he is not even a lock to be the first QB selected.   Denver may actually move up to select someone else.

Either way, I guess who trades up to #1 largely depends on who needs a QB and how badly.   

like I said, if nobody wants to move up to take a QB, I could see someone in the top 3 or 4 picks moving up for the price of a 2nd round pick (or something of the like)  but I dont see any obscene offers coming out of the woodwork for a QB.   That being said, I said the same thing last year, and some crazy (in my opinion) deals got made.

Sometimes I suspect these decisions are sometimes made not by the GM but by the crazy owner of the franchise.   I have no proof of this, but I suspect it happens.

I just dont agree with you.  But thats ok.

I dont think Denver would need to trade to 1 for Haskins.  

When was the last team that traded to 1 for a non QB?  This is as stacked a DL class as there ever was just about.  Why trade up 2 spots and a 2nd rounder for 1 of them?  Just doesnt happen.  People dont trade to 1 for non QBs.  Olden days maybe.

Sure anything could happen.  Im just saying it is very unlikely.  

Murray number 1 to AZ.  

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Things finally seem to be heating up on The Josh Rosen Trade front: 

 
Washington/Rosen looks more and more like the pairing, unless someone else steps up their offer.
 
Although Adam Schefter reports this: Despite being the subject of rampant trade speculation, Arizona QB Josh Rosen is expected to report to and participate in the start of the Cardinals’ off-season workout program on Monday. Some players who have been subject of trade speculation have declined to report to workouts.
 
and this: Plus, the Cardinals still have not engaged in active trade discussions to date on Josh Rosen. Other teams have asked about him, but to date, the Cardinals have not shown a willingness to trade him. To date....
 
At the very least it looks like we may have an answer to the Rosen/Murray dilemma in short order.

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