OJ Howard owners: what's your plan?

[DonS 3,063]

Are you guys planning on trotting him out one more time against NYG, or have you already cut bait?  I'm hoping that Arians' talk of "he can play better" translates into at least an OK game, but that is probably just wishful thinking on my part. Unfortunately my backup is the still a bit gimpy Trey Burton. 

[shutdown 40]

Going to run him out there one more week, but if he lays another egg I’ll grab whatever garbage is on the waiver wire (Disley, Everett, D. Harris) and hope he has one double digit game and try to trade him for anything I can get. 

Lesson learned, a leopard doesn’t change his spots and Arians doesn’t use tight ends.  The fact that Arians was blaming Howard for Winston not being able to throw routes to him is a clear signal that he sees no value in an elite TE

[Vtfanatic 0]

I am holding him on the bench this week and playing McDonald.  

[Gepetto 976]

Probably start him this week.  If he fails again, I'll start Ebron the following week.

[purplengold47 27]

Dropped him and picked up witten, i dont see any changes with that offense featuring him. He'll be very inconsistent. 

[pipeman 16]

I was bummed when he got drafted a couple picks ahead of where I was targeting him. Glad he didn't get the job as my TE1, but someone cut him loose today, so I snagged him as my replacement to Njoku as my backup. 

[SF Forty Niners 22]

I picked him up dropped Rudolph for him 

Holding Ebron / VD  on Bench this week 

[oldtimer 84]

I posted this yesterday in another thread here, but these are my thoughts;  I didn't draft OJ as I repeatedly said Arians doesn't use TE's in his offense.  That said, OJ is super talented and if his head is in the game, he could be as dominant as anyone on that roster.  When Arians had Heath Miller, he was at least a respectable TE you could throw in here and there.  OJ is WAY more talented than Miller ever was.  Miller had heart though.  Arians has said recently (Rotoworld) that OJ needs to improve, so he's putting him on notice.  When a Coach does that, it typically means they are going to give them an opportunity and see what they do with it.  If you spent an early/mid round pick on OJ, you can't release him yet.  He struggled with the playbook as a rookie, from what I've read.  The Arians system is very complex, so it may be a while before he gets it.  I think he's going to be given opportunities, and probably soon.  What he does with them though is up in the air.  From reading what the paper in Tampa says, this isn't an issue of OJ not fitting in the offense, it's an issue of him not putting forth his best effort.  He will either get his act together, or they will end up trading him.  He's absolutely not needed in an Arians offense.  A luxury, but nothing close to a necessity.  See what he does over the next three weeks before flat out dumping him though.  The first good game he has, go on your league message boards and brag about how he finally picked up the system and he's going to win you the league title, then trade him.  Build him up first though.  Right now his value is equal to spoiled milk.  Nobody is giving you anything for him.  After one good week, I guarantee at least one owner will think he's seen the light and will be great going forward. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,104]

I posted this in another thread, but I'll reiterate... Bruce Arians is NOT the play caller in Tampa, Byron Leftwich is.  In the first 2 games, Winston has targeted TE's 20% of the time, indicating that Leftwich is making TE's a focal point of the passing game.  Some things to keep in mind...

1. Tampa's OLine SUCKS!
2. Howard is a great pass blocking TE
3. Perriman can't catch
4. The defense is playing a LOT better (at this point), than last year.
5. This is a new system, with a lot of young players.

So to expand on points 1 and 2 simultaneously, because Howard is such a good blocker, he's being kept in a little more often to help the OLine protect Winston.  Point 3, because Perriman stinks, Brate needs to be out there a lot also.  The impact of that is that Winston likes Brate and he will be the primary read for Winston over Howard.  Point 4, because the defense is playing a lot better, the Bucs haven't been forced to pass as much as last year.  Last year, the Bucs averaged 39 pass attempts per game, and after 2 games this season, they're averaging 8 less attempts per game.  Point 5, virtually every Bucs skill position player is between years 2 and 5 in their career.  Only Brate and Evans have 5 full years in the league.  A lot of these guys are learning a new system for the first time (3rd time for Perriman), so there will be an adjustment period.  If you read any articles or opinion pieces or whatever, that points to Arians saying that Howard has to play better, he's basically referring to Point #5.  Howard has to do a better job of learning and playing within, the new offense.

 

What does all of that mean?  My suggestion is to sit and wait.  Tampa has 4 more games, then a bye week.  If you can hold out with Howard at least on your bench until Week 8, then I'd suggest you take that route.  If not, try and shop him for a WR3 or something like that.  Yeah, you'll be selling low, but it's better than just cutting him and picking up a WR/RB 4 or 5.

 

To expound a little more on the very first sentence of my post, Bruce Arians has made it very clear to Tampa ownership and the fanbase, that the offense is solely on Leftwich's shoulders.  Arians says he believes in him and trusts him to run an efficient offense.  Yes, Arians will be there to help and guide Leftwich, but every play that is called, is done so by Leftwich's decision making alone.  Arians is not whispering in his ear.  He's not scripting out things for Leftwich to follow.  He is not forcing his ideas/thoughts onto Leftwich.  Simply, the "Arians doesn't throw to TE's" tag line has no relevance in the Bucs' current offense.  As I stated in my second sentence, TE's have been targeted on 20% of the pass plays that were called this year (included plays nullified by TO's).

[Phil Simms 11 127]

I doubt Arians is not influencing Leftwich to throw less to the TEs. 

[oldtimer 84]

I totally agree with you on the sit and wait thing.  I 1,000% disagree with you on the playcalling.  You know from a prior thread I am a big Byron fan.  Love that guy.  I also know how Arians ran his system elsewhere.  I have no doubt at all Leftwich is calling the plays.  The plays that have been approved by Arians.  It is not only rare for an offensive coordinator to have "full control" of any offense, but for it to be someone with so little experience, I find it to be impossible to believe.  I have seen and heard the players themselves on ESPN and on NFL Network talk about how difficult it is to run "Coach Arian's system" on offense.  They didn't say a single word about Byron.  I do believe Byron is calling the plays, but the playbook he's calling them from is 100% Bruce Arian's playbook, so the past offensive systems from Arians are very relevant here. 

 

For proof, here is something from your hometown newspaper written only 5 days ago.  OJ is not, nor has he ever been, a good pass blocking TE.  He wasn't at Alabama and hasn't been in the NFL.  https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bucs/2019/09/14/theres-a-lot-of-meat-left-on-the-bone-for-buccaneers-offense/   He struggles mightily in both pass & run blocking.  The guy is a flat out receiving TE, but has not done a good job of getting open.  Also, your local sportswriter (and there are MANY more articles on this you can Google from the Tampa newspapers and their affiliated websites) believes OJ is simply lazy and hasn't been able to pick up the playbook.  Brate is outplaying him in ever facet of the game right now.  I'll also agree with you that the line is a huge part of their problem, but if you look at the stats, they are NOT using OJ as a blocker.  That's almost laughable.  When he's on the field, it's as a WR.  Even the game film shows this. 

So, we agree, just came to the agreement by very different conclusions.  I'm not certain if you are a Tampa native, or just a Tampa fan.  If you live in Tampa, you know full well what the newspapers are saying about OJ and it isn't good.  You also would know they 100% claim Byron is the coordinator, but using the Arians playbook. 

Also - https://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-tam-2.php   Tampa's TE's are NOT getting 20% of the targets.  Through two games, it is barely 15% and in the second game it was only 8%.  The 15% number would be historically in line with an Arians offense. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,104]

26 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

I totally agree with you on the sit and wait thing.  I 1,000% disagree with you on the playcalling.  You know from a prior thread I am a big Byron fan.  Love that guy.  I also know how Arians ran his system elsewhere.  I have no doubt at all Leftwich is calling the plays.  The plays that have been approved by Arians.  It is not only rare for an offensive coordinator to have "full control" of any offense, but for it to be someone with so little experience, I find it to be impossible to believe.  I have seen and heard the players themselves on ESPN and on NFL Network talk about how difficult it is to run "Coach Arian's system" on offense.  They didn't say a single word about Byron.  I do believe Byron is calling the plays, but the playbook he's calling them from is 100% Bruce Arian's playbook, so the past offensive systems from Arians are very relevant here. 

 

For proof, here is something from your hometown newspaper written only 5 days ago.  OJ is not, nor has he ever been, a good pass blocking TE.  He wasn't at Alabama and hasn't been in the NFL.  https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bucs/2019/09/14/theres-a-lot-of-meat-left-on-the-bone-for-buccaneers-offense/   He struggles mightily in both pass & run blocking.  The guy is a flat out receiving TE, but has not done a good job of getting open.  Also, your local sportswriter (and there are MANY more articles on this you can Google from the Tampa newspapers and their affiliated websites) believes OJ is simply lazy and hasn't been able to pick up the playbook.  Brate is outplaying him in ever facet of the game right now.  I'll also agree with you that the line is a huge part of their problem, but if you look at the stats, they are NOT using OJ as a blocker.  That's almost laughable.  When he's on the field, it's as a WR.  Even the game film shows this. 

So, we agree, just came to the agreement by very different conclusions.  I'm not certain if you are a Tampa native, or just a Tampa fan.  If you live in Tampa, you know full well what the newspapers are saying about OJ and it isn't good.  You also would know they 100% claim Byron is the coordinator, but using the Arians playbook. 

Also - https://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-tam-2.php   Tampa's TE's are NOT getting 20% of the targets.  Through two games, it is barely 15% and in the second game it was only 8%.  The 15% number would be historically in line with an Arians offense. 

Quote

As I stated in my second sentence, TE's have been targeted on 20% of the pass plays that were called this year (included plays nullified by TO's).

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,104]

Leftwich / Howard

[AxeElf 787]

Basically Howard owners have three feasible plans: pills, a rope, or a gun.

[oldtimer 84]

1 minute ago, AxeElf said:

Basically Howard owners have three feasible plans: pills, a rope, or a gun.

Pills generally lead to one dying from their kidney shutting down and it's slow and painful.  A rope is interesting, but you need to be high enough to snap the neck as the hanging part is just going to get boring after a while.  A gun....  A true, yet crazy, statistic on gun suicides is that a much higher percentage than you think actually survive.  They've lost half their face, but they live.  I think just holding him for a bit is ok and seeing how he's used.  If he's not used, I think they'll try to trade him as they already have Brate. 

[jrokh 567]

7 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

Basically Howard owners have three feasible plans: pills, a rope, or a gun.

Perhaps Howard owners can trade him for pills or a rope. I doubt he has enough value to obtain a gun. An alternative could also be Herndon NYJ, If Darnold does indeed come back week 5, he looked for Herndon quite often last year, and Gase isn't allergic to the TE as Arians clearly is...

[AxeElf 787]

29 minutes ago, jrokh said:

Perhaps Howard owners can trade him for pills or a rope. I doubt he has enough value to obtain a gun. An alternative could also be Herndon NYJ, If Darnold does indeed come back week 5, he looked for Herndon quite often last year, and Gase isn't allergic to the TE as Arians clearly is...

There's been a lot of sleeper hype about Herndon, but I'm just not sure that the Jets are good enough to keep Bell, Anderson, Crowder AND a TE fantasy relevant.  I suppose he's worth a speculative TE2 slot, but I'd hate to be in the position of choosing between him and Howard on the reg.

[shutdown 40]

4 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Simply, the "Arians doesn't throw to TE's" tag line has no relevance in the Bucs' current offense. 

I'm not going to strenuously argue the point because I know you're a lot more dialed in on Tampa than I am, but I cannot believe that Arians has no input on gameplan week to week.  I do agree that Howard's #1 problem is that he's the best pass blocker on Tampa's O-line.  That, however, can't be fixed this year.  To me all signs point to dump ASAP, despite the fact that I believe he's perhaps the best all around TE in the league. 

I'm hoping he lucks into 60-80- and a score this week vs the hapless Giants, then I'll take the best garbage deal I get offered for him because he's not going to be any more valuable this  year than any other TE ranked 6-15 which gives you no value at the position.

[TBayXXXVII 2,104]

3 minutes ago, shutdown said:

I'm not going to strenuously argue the point because I know you're a lot more dialed in on Tampa than I am, but I cannot believe that Arians has no input on gameplan week to week.  I do agree that Howard's #1 problem is that he's the best pass blocker on Tampa's O-line.  That, however, can't be fixed this year.  To me all signs point to dump ASAP, despite the fact that I believe he's perhaps the best all around TE in the league. 

I'm hoping he lucks into 60-80- and a score this week vs the hapless Giants, then I'll take the best garbage deal I get offered for him because he's not going to be any more valuable this  year than any other TE ranked 6-15 which gives you no value at the position.

I didn't say Arians had no input in the game plan, just that he's not the one calling the plays.  Regardless of the game plan, Howard isn't like a lot of tight ends.  He can line up outside, in-line, or in the slot.  He's not restricted.  If the game plan is to stay outside, Leftwich isn't being prohibited by Arians, from calling plays where Howard lines up outside and is the primary read.  I think the one major thing that really works in Tampa's favor, is that all 4 of their primary passing targets (Evans, Godwin, Howard, and Brate), can play the X, Y, and Z positions, as well as line up tight on the line. 

 

That said, if you are of the mind that Howard may be relegated to being the 6th OLineman, then I really won't debate you on that, as that is a legitimate concern.

[oldtimer 84]

I may be nuts, but I think OJ is going to get thrown the ball this week.  I'd trade him if you can find a partner after the weekend.  If history holds true, Arians will give a player a chance once he's called them out. 

I've seen twice in this thread though that he's a good blocker.  He's not. lol  I posted the link above to the Tampa Sports website.  They say his blocking is horrible.  His scouting report was that he wasn't a good blocker in the passing game.  Arians said in the preseason he was not going to be used as a blocker as that's not his forte, that he needed to work on it.  I'm just not sure where this "hes a good blocker" thing came from.  I guess it's a common thing to throw out there, but he wasn't drafted as a blocker, nor has he ever been a "good" one.  I guess maybe when your offensive line is so bad, an extra large body helps though.  The reports from the early games though are that his blocking is simply bad. 

[AxeElf 787]

4 hours ago, oldtimer said:

I may be nuts, but I think OJ is going to get thrown the ball this week.  I'd trade him if you can find a partner after the weekend.  If history holds true, Arians will give a player a chance once he's called them out. 

I've seen twice in this thread though that he's a good blocker.  He's not. lol  I posted the link above to the Tampa Sports website.  They say his blocking is horrible.  His scouting report was that he wasn't a good blocker in the passing game.  Arians said in the preseason he was not going to be used as a blocker as that's not his forte, that he needed to work on it.  I'm just not sure where this "hes a good blocker" thing came from.  I guess it's a common thing to throw out there, but he wasn't drafted as a blocker, nor has he ever been a "good" one.  I guess maybe when your offensive line is so bad, an extra large body helps though.  The reports from the early games though are that his blocking is simply bad. 

Definitely not drafted to be a blocker.  He was drafted as a receiver when TE-whisperer Dirk Koetter was still the coach.  New coach, different needs... and Howard is the square peg.

[tanatastic 2,061]

You run him out there this week for sure after the squeaky wheel treatment from coaches. 

[uwmalcolm 73]

If Howard doesn’t get it going this week, I might scoop up Herndon. Wasn’t planning on carrying 2 TEs but it may have to happen. Also have to look at potential TE upgrades through trade.