Who are your buy low guys after 3 weeks?

[LoOnAtIk 75]

4 hours ago, Ray_T said:

With Cook, I'm mostly concerned about the ACL tear.

The thigh Hamstring strain/pull may have even come as a result of being physically active in the timeframe of the ACL recovery.   

They say the recovery can happen in a year, but I have found most often it takes 2 full years for the body to adjust, and you are more prone to the meniscus tears and some soft tissue injuries. (especially in that first 2 years after the injury when the gait may not be where it should be due to compensating for the injury)

I think he will be fine, but will likely have a shorter career than comparable players because of that injury.

I wouldnt go out and label him injury prone just yet. 

but hes now 2 years out from his surgery, so physically hes about as good as hes gonna be.

I think my biggest issue with this is whether the ACL injury is contact related or non-contact. 2 years is a lofty time frame. Professional soccer players are usually only out 6 months with ACL tears and the recovery rate is fantastic they usually are the same player when they return. Granted there is basically no contact in soccer but one could argue they “work” a lot more by sprinting back and forth for 90 minutes with just 1 break. It’s gotta be very demanding on the legs. Dalvin’s ACL tear was NON CONTACT. I’m no doctor but that means It’s considerably more likely to occur again to someone as opposed to someone who takes a nasty hit.

[rallo 132]

On 9/24/2019 at 11:56 AM, Brutal Brutus said:

I'm seeing way too many of my players on this list.

Likewise...

Nuk, I personally wouldn't sell him low

Freeman, Not sure he bounces back

Winston, risky play every week

Carson, fumbles + Penny are a concern.

If I'm targeting anyone it could be Hunter Henry, but who knows how he'll come back. 

Another relatively low is Kirk, I think he breaks out 2nd half as his schedule gets a little better midway through the season.

[Ray_T 587]

22 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

I think my biggest issue with this is whether the ACL injury is contact related or non-contact. 2 years is a lofty time frame. Professional soccer players are usually only out 6 months with ACL tears and the recovery rate is fantastic they usually are the same player when they return. Granted there is basically no contact in soccer but one could argue they “work” a lot more by sprinting back and forth for 90 minutes with just 1 break. It’s gotta be very demanding on the legs. Dalvin’s ACL tear was NON CONTACT. I’m no doctor but that means It’s considerably more likely to occur again to someone as opposed to someone who takes a nasty hit.

or it could mean there may have been an undiagnosed partial tear that gave way under high impact runniing over time.

there are more permutations and combinations based on location of tear, location of re attachment and so on.   we dont have this info and will likely never have it.

My friend who does rehab work for the sports teams in my city told me it is fairly common that the body will adjust the gait and sometimes you can even develop knee or soft tissue issues in the non injured leg due to the body compensating for the torn ACL in the other leg.   Apparently that is why in physio  they want you to walk with a normal motion regardless of pain because it minimizes (but wont eliminate) this sort of problems.

either way, as your recovery progresses these risks dissipate..   in those  first 2 years both knees/legs are more likely to have soft tissue damage while the ACL heals.

and yes soccer players recover more quickly but they dont have to take direct hits to the knee in the process of playing a game.   Thats a big deal.   if all you had to do was run, you'd likely be back in 9 months or less nearly all the time.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

I’m going after Ertz if anyone is selling.

[Phil Simms 11 127]

Was looking at OBJ -

I trade: Lamar Jackson and Godwin

I get back: OBJ & Mayfield & Ronald Jones II.

 

I already have Russel Wilson. My WRs (Start 2) after losing Antonio are Godwin/Ridley/MVS. Would be nice to have OBJ in there.....but I am leaning to reject as I would make my opponent a powerhouse. 

 

 

[oldtimer 84]

13 hours ago, LoOnAtIk said:

I think my biggest issue with this is whether the ACL injury is contact related or non-contact. 2 years is a lofty time frame. Professional soccer players are usually only out 6 months with ACL tears and the recovery rate is fantastic they usually are the same player when they return. Granted there is basically no contact in soccer but one could argue they “work” a lot more by sprinting back and forth for 90 minutes with just 1 break. It’s gotta be very demanding on the legs. Dalvin’s ACL tear was NON CONTACT. I’m no doctor but that means It’s considerably more likely to occur again to someone as opposed to someone who takes a nasty hit.

Frank Gore has had two ACL injuries requiring total replacement.  His career wasn't shortened.  AP had one.  Most football ACL injuries, for running backs, are fixable without further issues beyond hamstring & calf injuries that occur when they try to come back too soon.  Medical advances have come pretty far and once repaired, they are typically ok.  Some players have had them repaired more than once or a clean-up job done in the future.  In the old days, it meant their career was likely over.  For the last twenty years, they have been able to use a 'constructed' ACL and fix it.  There are studies showing if it is ripped just once, it is more likely to do so again, but the odds do not increase by much.  If it rips twice, there is a massive chance it does so again.  I believe it increased the odds by 75% that it would tear a third time.  The data is old though, over ten years, and with new advances, especially in surgery, I wouldn't worry about it.  I'd MUCH prefer to have the non contact variety.  It usually means the ACL was torn long ago and stretched, finally giving way.  That's what happened to my tendon.  A contact ACL injury means it was suddenly ripped and you are more than likely going to suffer other injuries around the ACL as a result, which for a running back, is nothing but trouble.  Again though, with medical science and surgery advancing so much, and so quickly, injuries today are very rarely career ending and you can sometimes come back much stronger than before.  Tommy John surgery is a great example. 

 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

Frank Gore has had two ACL injuries requiring total replacement.  His career wasn't shortened.  AP had one.  Most football ACL injuries, for running backs, are fixable without further issues beyond hamstring & calf injuries that occur when they try to come back too soon.  Medical advances have come pretty far and once repaired, they are typically ok.  Some players have had them repaired more than once or a clean-up job done in the future.  In the old days, it meant their career was likely over.  For the last twenty years, they have been able to use a 'constructed' ACL and fix it.  There are studies showing if it is ripped just once, it is more likely to do so again, but the odds do not increase by much.  If it rips twice, there is a massive chance it does so again.  I believe it increased the odds by 75% that it would tear a third time.  The data is old though, over ten years, and with new advances, especially in surgery, I wouldn't worry about it.  I'd MUCH prefer to have the non contact variety.  It usually means the ACL was torn long ago and stretched, finally giving way.  That's what happened to my tendon.  A contact ACL injury means it was suddenly ripped and you are more than likely going to suffer other injuries around the ACL as a result, which for a running back, is nothing but trouble.  Again though, with medical science and surgery advancing so much, and so quickly, injuries today are very rarely career ending and you can sometimes come back much stronger than before.  Tommy John surgery is a great example. 

 

All knee injuries are different I really don’t know how you can point at Gore and AP as an example of why Cook will be fine in the future. Those 2 could very well be outliers. Teddy Bridgewater was out for years and I’m pretty sure his injury was non contact and multiple ligaments were torn. Look at Jay Ajayi, did you watch him at al last year or this year? Very hard to watch. To assume that a non contact ACL tear always means that it was already torn and then it gently ripped? And that it’s a better scenario long term? I don’t buy that. Knee injuries are bad and you can’t just throw it away as potential to occur again.

 

especially when you compare someone to AP, which we all know isn’t fair. AP is not of this planet.

[oldtimer 84]

3 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

All knee injuries are different I really don’t know how you can point at Gore and AP as an example of why Cook will be fine in the future. Those 2 could very well be outliers. Teddy Bridgewater was out for years and I’m pretty sure his injury was non contact and multiple ligaments were torn. Look at Jay Ajayi, did you watch him at al last year or this year? Very hard to watch. To assume that a non contact ACL tear always means that it was already torn and then it gently ripped? And that it’s a better scenario long term? I don’t buy that. Knee injuries are bad and you can’t just throw it away as potential to occur again.

 

especially when you compare someone to AP, which we all know isn’t fair. AP is not of this planet.

I never said Cook would be fine in the future.  Not once.  I have said he would be fine this season (although not in this thread).  I pointed out medical advances.  I'm not Nostradamus, so I won't even try to predict the future.  Saying Cook is more likely to have another ACL injury than ANY other player is not true.  Not anymore.  Years ago, it definitely was.  Now, an ACL can be repaired to near 100%.  Most of the second rips come from the person trying to do too much, too soon.  Neal is a great example.  You can overcompensate and rip your other ACL, hurt your calf or hamstring or even tear the original (repaired) ACL.  Many bad things can happen when you try to come back too quickly.  If you look up Bridgewater, you will find the below story.  His injury was not only incredibly rare, but had so many other things involved it was scary.  Comparing a RB to a QB is also not quite the same thing.  I also never said a non contact ACL tear was "always" already torn.  Please re-read my actual post.  I said it is the case often and you can use Google to verify that.  I ripped my tendon off the bone on a treadmill.  Non contact.  It had been partially torn since I wrestled in High School, but never tore fully until ten years later.  I know firsthand how they can completely remove a tendon and replace it with something new, if there isn't enough to reattach it properly.   https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2016/09/03/just-how-bad-teddy-bridgewater-injury/wg8Pw16lWjYEA3b8b9d67N/story.html 

Who did I compare to AP?  I agree that he's a different type of guy.  lol  I certainly wasn't comparing him to Cook outside of the sense he had an injury as well.  The bottom line with ANY injury is you can never say one guy is going to have the same injury twice any more than you can say they will have it once.  Two years removed from an ACL is enough time for everything to be healed, which is where Cook is.  I have no concerns about him what-so-ever for this year.  I'll also point out that Cook gets bashed on this site more than any other, but it's always by people who did not draft him.  Some complaining have said they did, but when I asked them to post a link to their league, they did not.  There seems to be entirely too much hatred for a guy who is rocking out and looking strong simply because some people here kept claiming he was frequently injured.  Not sure how many times I have to disprove that, so I'll just stop and enjoy his season.  Outside of injuries related to his tear, he missed ONE college game over an ankle issue.  The kid played an entire freaking season with a torn Labrum.  How much tougher does this kid need to prove he is?  An ACL can happen to anyone at anytime.  Most people already have damage to theirs, they just haven't had an MRI and don't know it, anyone that has played sports for a period of time anyway. 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

4 hours ago, oldtimer said:

I never said Cook would be fine in the future.  Not once.  I have said he would be fine this season (although not in this thread).  I pointed out medical advances.  I'm not Nostradamus, so I won't even try to predict the future.  Saying Cook is more likely to have another ACL injury than ANY other player is not true.  Not anymore.  Years ago, it definitely was.  Now, an ACL can be repaired to near 100%.  Most of the second rips come from the person trying to do too much, too soon.  Neal is a great example.  You can overcompensate and rip your other ACL, hurt your calf or hamstring or even tear the original (repaired) ACL.  Many bad things can happen when you try to come back too quickly.  If you look up Bridgewater, you will find the below story.  His injury was not only incredibly rare, but had so many other things involved it was scary.  Comparing a RB to a QB is also not quite the same thing.  I also never said a non contact ACL tear was "always" already torn.  Please re-read my actual post.  I said it is the case often and you can use Google to verify that.  I ripped my tendon off the bone on a treadmill.  Non contact.  It had been partially torn since I wrestled in High School, but never tore fully until ten years later.  I know firsthand how they can completely remove a tendon and replace it with something new, if there isn't enough to reattach it properly.   https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2016/09/03/just-how-bad-teddy-bridgewater-injury/wg8Pw16lWjYEA3b8b9d67N/story.html 

Who did I compare to AP?  I agree that he's a different type of guy.  lol  I certainly wasn't comparing him to Cook outside of the sense he had an injury as well.  The bottom line with ANY injury is you can never say one guy is going to have the same injury twice any more than you can say they will have it once.  Two years removed from an ACL is enough time for everything to be healed, which is where Cook is.  I have no concerns about him what-so-ever for this year.  I'll also point out that Cook gets bashed on this site more than any other, but it's always by people who did not draft him.  Some complaining have said they did, but when I asked them to post a link to their league, they did not.  There seems to be entirely too much hatred for a guy who is rocking out and looking strong simply because some people here kept claiming he was frequently injured.  Not sure how many times I have to disprove that, so I'll just stop and enjoy his season.  Outside of injuries related to his tear, he missed ONE college game over an ankle issue.  The kid played an entire freaking season with a torn Labrum.  How much tougher does this kid need to prove he is?  An ACL can happen to anyone at anytime.  Most people already have damage to theirs, they just haven't had an MRI and don't know it, anyone that has played sports for a period of time anyway. 

This argument really doesn’t make sense. Based on everything you claim here how can anyone, I mean ANYONE, know if he already has a “partial” tear like you claim is the usual case for non contact tears. It just does not make any sense lol. If his right knee got repaired what if the left knee is ready to go at any moment? And I’m only offering these hypotheticals based on the points that you are making.

 

Secondly, I’m not hating on Cook in any of my posts I just tend to fear players being brittle if they get hurt from non contact. I know APs injury was on a tackle and I believe so was Le’Veon’s. 

 

Lastly, if the topic of conversation is Dalvin Cook, and you mention AP, for whatever the reason, it is technically a comparison.

 

Cheers.

[crackills 19]

On 9/24/2019 at 12:34 PM, crackills said:

You can get Rogers for peanuts.. i think that GB O will change in the 2nd half of the season  and they'll start airing it out . Rogers and Adams have too big of egos to have such weak stat sheets 

Boom.. you're welcome.

[Ray_T 587]

On 9/26/2019 at 8:33 AM, oldtimer said:

Frank Gore has had two ACL injuries requiring total replacement.  His career wasn't shortened.  AP had one.  Most football ACL injuries, for running backs, are fixable without further issues beyond hamstring & calf injuries that occur when they try to come back too soon.  Medical advances have come pretty far and once repaired, they are typically ok.  Some players have had them repaired more than once or a clean-up job done in the future.  In the old days, it meant their career was likely over.  For the last twenty years, they have been able to use a 'constructed' ACL and fix it.  There are studies showing if it is ripped just once, it is more likely to do so again, but the odds do not increase by much.  If it rips twice, there is a massive chance it does so again.  I believe it increased the odds by 75% that it would tear a third time.  The data is old though, over ten years, and with new advances, especially in surgery, I wouldn't worry about it.  I'd MUCH prefer to have the non contact variety.  It usually means the ACL was torn long ago and stretched, finally giving way.  That's what happened to my tendon.  A contact ACL injury means it was suddenly ripped and you are more than likely going to suffer other injuries around the ACL as a result, which for a running back, is nothing but trouble.  Again though, with medical science and surgery advancing so much, and so quickly, injuries today are very rarely career ending and you can sometimes come back much stronger than before.  Tommy John surgery is a great example. 

 

I think it's hit or miss.

for every RB like Gore or ADP, there is one player who is never quite the same.

while recovery times are getting shorter, its not consistently shorter.   and not all people respond to physio the same way.  

We think we know about this, but the reality is there is still lots we dont know.

I cant tell you if contact vs non contact is preferable.  it may or may not make a difference.   but a torn ACL is a torn ACL and the surgery and healing process (including physio) is likely more or less the same.

What I cant tell you is why ADP returns in less than a year and is productive, while others take longer (usually 18-24 months)

my best guess is every person is different, every injury has its own unique things about it.  

Maybe ADP is an exceptional healer.   or maybe he tore it in a place that actually makes quick recovery more likely.

maybe his surgeon did something exceptional.

we dont know.

all I know is I assign risk in my pools based on injury and I dont generally find a player is highly productive coming off ACL surgery in that first year.  not usually.

sometimes the first half of the first year back is bad.  sometimes the whole first year back is a writeoff.  sometimes (in the case of ADP) the first year back is exceptional.

 

 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

1 hour ago, Ray_T said:

I think it's hit or miss.

for every RB like Gore or ADP, there is one player who is never quite the same.

while recovery times are getting shorter, its not consistently shorter.   and not all people respond to physio the same way.  

We think we know about this, but the reality is there is still lots we dont know.

I cant tell you if contact vs non contact is preferable.  it may or may not make a difference.   but a torn ACL is a torn ACL and the surgery and healing process (including physio) is likely more or less the same.

What I cant tell you is why ADP returns in less than a year and is productive, while others take longer (usually 18-24 months)

my best guess is every person is different, every injury has its own unique things about it.  

Maybe ADP is an exceptional healer.   or maybe he tore it in a place that actually makes quick recovery more likely.

maybe his surgeon did something exceptional.

we dont know.

all I know is I assign risk in my pools based on injury and I dont generally find a player is highly productive coming off ACL surgery in that first year.  not usually.

sometimes the first half of the first year back is bad.  sometimes the whole first year back is a writeoff.  sometimes (in the case of ADP) the first year back is exceptional.

 

 

***ONLY in the case of AP was the first year back exceptional. That’s why any comparison to him is unfair. I agree with you. To assume zero risk seems silly.

[Ray_T 587]

36 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

***ONLY in the case of AP was the first year back exceptional. That’s why any comparison to him is unfair. I agree with you. To assume zero risk seems silly.

gurley's first year was also pretty good.  but Yeah, more often than not, first year after a torn ACL=do not draft

[Super Cubs 132]

Tevin Coleman

[Brutal Brutus 182]

David Montgomery

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

This should be updated.

Carson could be a buy low.  He did have good yardage but no TDs and few are probably aware of his monstrous broken tackle numbers in the game.   Something like 21?  Possible fumbles are behind him and he's about to explode.  Penny coming back could lower price as well