Jersey City Shootout: 6 Dead Including Police Officer; Suspects Found Dead In Kosher Grocery Store Along With 3 Civilians

[MDC 5,875]

2 hours ago, 5-Points said:

If we remove a certain demographic and suicides from the gun homicide rate our numbers drop to some of the lowest on the planet. The gun isn't the problem. 

Is that true if all the other countries remove high risk demographics and suicide rates too?  

[BiffTannen 651]

7 minutes ago, MDC said:

Is that true if all the other countries remove high risk demographics and suicide rates too?  

Europe will see their gun violence numbers increase in time. 

https://qz.com/1236213/europes-black-population-has-increased-by-at-least-a-million-over-the-last-decade/

[Cdub100 3,366]

Shall not be infringed.

[5-Points 2,715]

1 hour ago, MDC said:

Is that true if all the other countries remove high risk demographics and suicide rates too?  

I would venture a guess that even then the #'s would be comparable per capita. But it's just a guess. 

[sderk 1,040]

2 hours ago, cyclone24 said:

Dope at least quote my entire sentence if you're going to say something stupid.

Better chance than some mythical shootout in my home? Absolutely.  

Farming machinery? What in the actual fock? Weird argument. "Well well guns aren't as bad as ________ so it's all good. " so odd.

Name calling suits the left because they got nothing else.

Yep. All kinds of things kill people when people don't use them correctly or if the people have intent to kill.

Mrs. Peacock was killed in the library with the knife.

Yikes!!! Get rid of knives!!

[Hardcore troubadour 12,576]

Both sides of this should just cut and paste what they said in other gun control threads into this one. 

[cyclone24 1,794]

42 minutes ago, sderk said:

Name calling suits the left because they got nothing else.

Yep. All kinds of things kill people when people don't use them correctly or if the people have intent to kill.

Mrs. Peacock was killed in the library with the knife.

Yikes!!! Get rid of knives!!

Sorry ........dipshiit...I vote Republican every election. 

[vuduchile 1,940]

9 hours ago, sderk said:

1. How does primary function come into this when one thing kills more innocent people than the other?

2. Sure, cars are often not intentionally used to kill, they are often used to unintentionally kill people. Drunken driving is a great example. Or, people people like you who, "of course we don't all obey them", decide not to obey the laws and people end up dead by that way of thinking.

3. So you admittedly don't obey the car laws knowing that the outcome of your actions could be the death of someone. And as an aside, don't say "we" when you mean you.

Many say "guns kill", but in the end, just like in driving cars recklessly, users kill. The only thing is, cars kill more people than guns do.

 

1. "Hand guns are made for killin'. The ain't no good for nuthin else."  - Ronny Van Zandt

2.  I'm a very defensive driver actually.  Knock on wood.  Never been in an accident.  99.% of people who drive a car aren't planning to kill someone.  Gun deaths also happen accidentally.  But most people who shoot another human being intend to kill them.  

3. I obey traffic laws, don't speed, don't drink and drive, and don't text and drive.   But unlike you, I'm not perfect.  I've made mistakes while behind the wheel and have been fortunate that i didn't wreck.  As an aside to your aside, when "we" is used in that context, I'm talking about society as a whole. 

I stand by my original comment.  The comparison doesn't work well. Find something else.  

 

[vuduchile 1,940]

19 hours ago, iam90sbaby said:

Again, I can see why a person from Iowa sees it this way

This is a fair point.  There are places I've been in the Bronx and on the south and west sides of Chicago where I wished I'd had a gun for protection.

[sderk 1,040]

31 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

Sorry ........dipshiit...I vote Republican every election. 

You are so outclassed every time you interact with anyone other than maybe MDC and worms.

[vuduchile 1,940]

6 hours ago, 5-Points said:

We also don't use cars defensively to save lives. Studies have shown that there are as many as 2.5 million instances of defensive gun use per year in the U.S. Gary Kleck did a survey back in the 90's and found the following:

(From wiki)

 

"Kleck conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed^[15], estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use (DGU - the use of guns for self-protection), compared to about 0.5 million gun crimes as estimated by the National Crime Victimization Survey."

 

If we remove a certain demographic and suicides from the gun homicide rate our numbers drop to some of the lowest on the planet. The gun isn't the problem. 

Am I reading this correctly?  This survey concluded that guns are used defensively 5x more often than they're used to commit a crime? I find that really hard to believe.  

This study contradicts those numbers;

STATISTICS ON DAILY GUN VIOLENCE IN AMERICA

DAILY GUN VIOLENCE IMPACTING PEOPLE OF ALL AGES IN THE U.S.

Every day, 310 people are shot in the United States. Among those:

• 100 people are shot and killed
• 210 survive gun injuries
• 95 are injured in an attack
• 61 die from suicide
• 10 survive a suicide attempt
• 1 is killed unintentionally
• 90 are shot unintentionally
• 1 is killed by legal intervention
• 4 are shot by legal intervention
• 1 died but the intent was unknown
• 12 are shot but the intent was unknown

https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics

 

[iam90sbaby 2,120]

11 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

Am I reading this correctly?  This survey concluded that guns are used defensively 5x more often than they're used to commit a crime? I find that really hard to believe.  

This study contradicts those numbers;

STATISTICS ON DAILY GUN VIOLENCE IN AMERICA

DAILY GUN VIOLENCE IMPACTING PEOPLE OF ALL AGES IN THE U.S.

Every day, 310 people are shot in the United States. Among those:

• 100 people are shot and killed
• 210 survive gun injuries
• 95 are injured in an attack
• 61 die from suicide
• 10 survive a suicide attempt
• 1 is killed unintentionally
• 90 are shot unintentionally
• 1 is killed by legal intervention
• 4 are shot by legal intervention
• 1 died but the intent was unknown
• 12 are shot but the intent was unknown

https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics

 

They left out the demographic breakdown 

[cyclone24 1,794]

30 minutes ago, sderk said:

You are so outclassed every time you interact with anyone other than maybe MDC and worms.

 Sorry kid. Saying dumb things like you do doesn't make it true. Weren't you just crying about name calling and now you're going to try ad hominum attacks because your argument is so weak? Get out of here.

[sderk 1,040]

3 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

 Sorry kid. Saying dumb things like you do doesn't make it true. Weren't you just crying about name calling and now you're going to try ad hominum attacks because your argument is so weak? Get out of here.

Can't let it go, can you? 

Guns don't kill, people kill. Now go annoy someone else.

[cyclone24 1,794]

Just now, sderk said:

Can't let it go, can you? 

Guns don't kill, people kill. Now go annoy someone else.

Ooooh....good cliche.

 

I love you.

[5-Points 2,715]

18 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

Am I reading this correctly?  This survey concluded that guns are used defensively 5x more often than they're used to commit a crime? I find that really hard to believe.  

This study contradicts those numbers;

STATISTICS ON DAILY GUN VIOLENCE IN AMERICA

DAILY GUN VIOLENCE IMPACTING PEOPLE OF ALL AGES IN THE U.S.

Every day, 310 people are shot in the United States. Among those:

• 100 people are shot and killed
• 210 survive gun injuries
• 95 are injured in an attack
• 61 die from suicide
• 10 survive a suicide attempt
• 1 is killed unintentionally
• 90 are shot unintentionally
• 1 is killed by legal intervention
• 4 are shot by legal intervention
• 1 died but the intent was unknown
• 12 are shot but the intent was unknown

https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics

 

The Kleck study was conducted in the early 90's when violent crime was at its peak. It would stand to reason that if violent crime was peaking then instances of defense against violent crime would also peak. 

Also, using your numbers, is something that affects 0.00008% of the population something that we need to infringe the rights of the law abiding to combat? 

 

[vuduchile 1,940]

21 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

The Kleck study was conducted in the early 90's when violent crime was at its peak. It would stand to reason that if violent crime was peaking then instances of defense against violent crime would also peak. 

Also, using your numbers, is something that affects 0.00008% of the population something that we need to infringe the rights of the law abiding to combat? 

 

Not my numbers.  Just something that came up from a google search.  

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What % of the population do the numbers from the Kleck study effect?  

Here's another take. 

1-3. Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense

We use epidemiological theory to explain why the “false positive” problem for rare events can lead to large overestimates of the incidence of rare diseases or rare phenomena such as self-defense gun use.  We then try to validate the claims of many millions of annual self-defense uses against available evidence.  We find that the claim of many millions of annual self-defense gun uses by American citizens is invalid.

Hemenway, David.  Survey research and self-defense gun use: An explanation of extreme overestimates.  Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology.  1997; 87:1430-1445.

Hemenway, David.  The myth of millions of annual self-defense gun uses: A case study of survey overestimates of rare events.  Chance (American Statistical Association).  1997; 10:6-10.

Cook, Philip J; Ludwig, Jens; Hemenway, David.  The gun debate’s new mythical number: How many defensive uses per year?  Journal of Policy Analysis and Management.  1997; 16:463-469.

 

5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense

Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Center, we examined the extent and nature of offensive gun use.  We found that firearms are used far more often to frighten and intimidate than they are used in self-defense.  All reported cases of criminal gun use, as well as many of the so-called self-defense gun uses, appear to be socially undesirable.

Hemenway, David; Azrael, Deborah.  The relative frequency of offensive and defensive gun use: Results of a national survey.  Violence and Victims.  2000; 15:257-272.

 

6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime

Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, we investigated how and when guns are used in the home.  We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.

Azrael, Deborah R; Hemenway, David.  In the safety of your own home: Results from a national survey of gun use at home.  Social Science and Medicine.  2000; 50:285-91.

9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law-abiding citizens

Using data from surveys of detainees in six jails from around the nation, we worked with a prison physician to determine whether criminals seek hospital medical care when they are shot.  Criminals almost always go to the hospital when they are shot.  To believe fully the claims of millions of self-defense gun uses each year would mean believing that decent law-abiding citizens shot hundreds of thousands of criminals.  But the data from emergency departments belie this claim, unless hundreds of thousands of wounded criminals are afraid to seek medical care.  But virtually all criminals who have been shot went to the hospital, and can describe in detail what happened there.

May, John P; Hemenway, David. Oen, Roger; Pitts, Khalid R.  Medical Care Solicitation by Criminals with Gunshot Wound Injuries: A Survey of Washington DC Jail Detainees.  Journal of Trauma.  2000; 48:130-132.

May, John P; Hemenway, David.  Do Criminals Go to the Hospital When They are Shot?  Injury Prevention.  2002; 8:236-238.

 

11. Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions

Victims use guns in less than 1% of contact crimes, and women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault (in more than 300 cases).  Victims using a gun were no less likely to be injured after taking protective action than victims using other forms of protective action.  Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self-defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.

This article helps provide accurate information concerning self-defense gun use.   It shows that many of the claims about the benefits of gun ownership are largely myths.

Hemenway D, Solnick SJ.  The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007-2011.  Preventive Medicine.  2015; 79: 22-27.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/

So again, I find the numbers from the Kleck study hard to believe. 

Anecdotally,  I don't know of single person in my entire network of friends and family who have ever used a gun in self defense.  On the flip side, there are a few who have been robbed at gun point at some point in their lives. 

I also know about a dozen police officers and only 3 of them have ever actually fired their weapons on the job.  Granted, they don't work the inner city.  I would expect those cops' numbers to be much higher.  

[5-Points 2,715]

11 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

Not my numbers.  Just something that came up from a google search.  

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What % of the population do the numbers from the Kleck study effect?  

Here's another take. 

 

So again, I find the numbers from the Kleck study hard to believe. 

Anecdotally,  I don't know of single person in my entire network of friends and family who have ever used a gun in self defense.  On the flip side, there are a few who have been robbed at gun point at some point in their lives. 

I also know about a dozen police officers and only 3 of them have ever actually fired their weapons on the job.  Granted, they don't work the inner city.  I would expect those cops' numbers to be much higher.  

My point was simply that something that happens to such a small percentage of the population isnt something that I feel we need to make restrictive laws or infringe constitutional rights to combat.

I could find studies to refute those studies and we could go back and forth but I'm on my phone and it wouldn't get us any closer to an agreement anyway. 

I know several cops myself. In fact, I grew up with one in the home. They all carry guns for self protection and they endorse the practice. 

 

 

 

[Strike 3,941]

56 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

Not my numbers.  Just something that came up from a google search.  

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What % of the population do the numbers from the Kleck study effect?  

Here's another take. 

1-3. Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense

We use epidemiological theory to explain why the “false positive” problem for rare events can lead to large overestimates of the incidence of rare diseases or rare phenomena such as self-defense gun use.  We then try to validate the claims of many millions of annual self-defense uses against available evidence.  We find that the claim of many millions of annual self-defense gun uses by American citizens is invalid.

Hemenway, David.  Survey research and self-defense gun use: An explanation of extreme overestimates.  Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology.  1997; 87:1430-1445.

Hemenway, David.  The myth of millions of annual self-defense gun uses: A case study of survey overestimates of rare events.  Chance (American Statistical Association).  1997; 10:6-10.

Cook, Philip J; Ludwig, Jens; Hemenway, David.  The gun debate’s new mythical number: How many defensive uses per year?  Journal of Policy Analysis and Management.  1997; 16:463-469.

 

5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense

Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Center, we examined the extent and nature of offensive gun use.  We found that firearms are used far more often to frighten and intimidate than they are used in self-defense.  All reported cases of criminal gun use, as well as many of the so-called self-defense gun uses, appear to be socially undesirable.

Hemenway, David; Azrael, Deborah.  The relative frequency of offensive and defensive gun use: Results of a national survey.  Violence and Victims.  2000; 15:257-272.

 

6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime

Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, we investigated how and when guns are used in the home.  We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.

Azrael, Deborah R; Hemenway, David.  In the safety of your own home: Results from a national survey of gun use at home.  Social Science and Medicine.  2000; 50:285-91.

9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law-abiding citizens

Using data from surveys of detainees in six jails from around the nation, we worked with a prison physician to determine whether criminals seek hospital medical care when they are shot.  Criminals almost always go to the hospital when they are shot.  To believe fully the claims of millions of self-defense gun uses each year would mean believing that decent law-abiding citizens shot hundreds of thousands of criminals.  But the data from emergency departments belie this claim, unless hundreds of thousands of wounded criminals are afraid to seek medical care.  But virtually all criminals who have been shot went to the hospital, and can describe in detail what happened there.

May, John P; Hemenway, David. Oen, Roger; Pitts, Khalid R.  Medical Care Solicitation by Criminals with Gunshot Wound Injuries: A Survey of Washington DC Jail Detainees.  Journal of Trauma.  2000; 48:130-132.

May, John P; Hemenway, David.  Do Criminals Go to the Hospital When They are Shot?  Injury Prevention.  2002; 8:236-238.

 

11. Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions

Victims use guns in less than 1% of contact crimes, and women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault (in more than 300 cases).  Victims using a gun were no less likely to be injured after taking protective action than victims using other forms of protective action.  Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self-defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.

This article helps provide accurate information concerning self-defense gun use.   It shows that many of the claims about the benefits of gun ownership are largely myths.

Hemenway D, Solnick SJ.  The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007-2011.  Preventive Medicine.  2015; 79: 22-27.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/

So again, I find the numbers from the Kleck study hard to believe. 

Anecdotally,  I don't know of single person in my entire network of friends and family who have ever used a gun in self defense.  On the flip side, there are a few who have been robbed at gun point at some point in their lives. 

I also know about a dozen police officers and only 3 of them have ever actually fired their weapons on the job.  Granted, they don't work the inner city.  I would expect those cops' numbers to be much higher.  

You sure cite a lot of studies from this guy D Hemenway.  Maybe he's a little biased? 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,576]

Knowing 3 out 12 cops firing their weapons is a lot. Thats a statistical annomoly. Unless they were shooting a deer or something along those lines. Cops rarely shoot people. Almost never happens. 

[BiffTannen 651]

On 12/12/2019 at 12:46 PM, drobeski said:

Democrats labeling these jew hating blacks as white supremacy group. 

 

 

She is a worthless bag of camel shitt. 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rashida-tlaib-deletes-tweet-blaming-white-supremacy-for-jersey-city-shooting

[iam90sbaby 2,120]

15 minutes ago, BiffTannen said:

She is a worthless bag of camel shitt. 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rashida-tlaib-deletes-tweet-blaming-white-supremacy-for-jersey-city-shooting

And they say we’re crazy when we say they are demonizing us 

[Mookz 1,287]

9 hours ago, 5-Points said:

We also don't use cars defensively to save lives.

Knight Rider did.  

One time he even (ironically) defeated an evil car named KARR.  

[BiffTannen 651]

4 minutes ago, Mookz said:

Knight Rider did.  

One time he even (ironically) defeated an evil car named KARR.  

Great episode

 

[vuduchile 1,940]

3 hours ago, Strike said:

You sure cite a lot of studies from this guy D Hemenway.  Maybe he's a little biased? 

Probably.  But what source isn’t these days? 

[vuduchile 1,940]

3 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Knowing 3 out 12 cops firing their weapons is a lot. Thats a statistical annomoly. Unless they were shooting a deer or something along those lines. Cops rarely shoot people. Almost never happens. 

2 of the 3 were involved in the same incident.   

Most of the others have never even pulled their gun.  

[BLS 313]

20 hours ago, sderk said:

So, thoughts of intent are more important. Results don't matter.

Gotcha.

It's the feelz.

[5-Points 2,715]

13 hours ago, Mookz said:

Knight Rider did.  

One time he even (ironically) defeated an evil car named KARR.