Man, China really doesn't like people who desire to be religious

[sderk 1,040]

Dark ages.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/30/792293186/china-sentences-christian-leader-to-9-years-prison

Quote

Wang Yi, a leader in one of the most well-known Christian congregations in China, has been quietly sentenced to nine years in prison, according to a statement on the website of the Intermediate People's Court of Chengdu Municipality.

The sentencing is the latest incident in an ongoing crackdown on organized religion in China. Early Rain Covenant Church, which Wang founded in 2008, attracted around 500 followers and was considered one of the most influential "underground churches" in China, operating independently of the state.

Wang was charged with "subverting state power." He, his wife Jiang Rong and about 100 congregants were detained last December after police raided the church during a Sunday evening service. Authorities said the church violated religious regulations because it was not registered with the government. Another prominent Protestant congregation with nearly 1,500 followers, Zion Church in Beijing, was raided and shut down last September.

 

[Vikings4ever 496]

No matter what your views on religion in general, giving a government enough power to suppress free exercise of it leads to NOTHING good.

[RLLD 3,452]

Our current Democrat party is likely celebrating this.

[Cdub100 3,366]

52 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Our current Democrat party is likely celebrating this.

Absolutely.

[Voltaire 4,550]

I use to live in Chengdu for 2+2, four years total. Generally I avoid running afoul of the Chinese police state, but religious freedom is a first amendment right in the US and not something I like seeing screwed with in this totalitarian country. It's been easy to make a living here and I married a gorgeous woman (twice, but the first was insane)  but there are downsides.

Personally, I'm more sympathetic to religion lately than I have been. I have been agnostic/atheist my whole time here, but eh, I've been warming to my Catholic upbringing more and more lately, not because it's making any more sense than it has, but I do/always have recognize the church's key role in Western history and see them as allies in the fight against neo-Marxist post modernist bullsh*t. Plus I really like Jordan Peterson's approach to religion to the point that I, for the first time ever, found myself disagreeing with Richard Dawkins on the issue in favor of Peterson's position. Further, I really liked seeing how Jacob Rees-Mogg used his Catholicism as air cover when debating transgender issues and thought that if I ever had to publicly debate transgender issues, that I would love to use the same tactic. 

[TimmySmith 2,782]

After seeing that film about China's 1 child policy, it just confirms that Chinese state is pure evil.  Hitler could only dream about what they do on a daily basis.

[vuduchile 1,940]

19 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

I use to live in Chengdu for 2+2, four years total. Generally I avoid running afoul of the Chinese police state, but religious freedom is a first amendment right in the US and not something I like seeing screwed with in this totalitarian country. It's been easy to make a living here and I married a gorgeous woman (twice, but the first was insane)  but there are downsides.

Personally, I'm more sympathetic to religion lately than I have been. I have been agnostic/atheist my whole time here, but eh, I've been warming to my Catholic upbringing more and more lately, not because it's making any more sense than it has, but I do/always have recognize the church's key role in Western history and see them as allies in the fight against neo-Marxist post modernist bullsh*t. Plus I really like Jordan Peterson's approach to religion to the point that I, for the first time ever, found myself disagreeing with Richard Dawkins on the issue in favor of Peterson's position. Further, I really liked seeing how Jacob Rees-Mogg used his Catholicism as air cover when debating transgender issues and thought that if I ever had to publicly debate transgender issues, that I would love to use the same tactic. 

Can't speak to the Catholic viewpoint, but you'd likely be disappointed in the progressive stances many Christian churches have taken on LGBT issues.  

[FlyinHeadlock 459]

China is very weak outside of a couple cities where they control from. One massive uprising could spread and over run it. That's why they fear religion or anything that can mass people in agreement.

A good example of this is the US based Shen Yun dance company. They put on Chinese shows in the US but they are mainly an arm of a religious sect that was persecuted by the Chinese government. Their routines take some shots at China and they try to get support from Hollywood and US politicians to get the word out since the media won't cover the human right abuses in China.

Just look what is happening in Hong Kong and that's not even that many people. They can barely control it.

 

 

 

[Djgb13 2,338]

3 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

Can't speak to the Catholic viewpoint, but you'd likely be disappointed in the progressive stances many Christian churches have taken on LGBT issues.  

There’s one down here in Charleston that has ALOT of that. Pastor is extremely young and hippie looking. They have quite a few transgenders and gay people there. Only reason I know this is cause I saw an ad on fb when I was looking for a church to start going to 

[vuduchile 1,940]

Just now, Djgb13 said:

There’s one down here in Charleston that has ALOT of that. Pastor is extremely young and hippie looking. They have quite a few transgenders and gay people there. Only reason I know this is cause I saw an ad on fb when I was looking for a church to start going to 

Inclusion is the new buzzword for many western churches.  There's a major schism on the horizon in the United Methodist Church.  It's apparently not enough to live and let live.  We now must openly fight for their cause, whatever that may be.  

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

6 minutes ago, FlyinHeadlock said:

China is very weak outside of a couple cities where they control from. One massive uprising could spread and over run it. That's why they fear religion or anything that can mass people in agreement.

A good example of this is the US based Shen Yun dance company. They put on Chinese shows in the US but they are mainly an arm of a religious sect that was persecuted by the Chinese government. Their routines take some shots at China and they try to get support from Hollywood and US politicians to get the word out since the media won't cover the human right abuses in China.

Just look what is happening in Hong Kong and that's not even that many people. They can barely control it.

 

 

 

An uprising could change things, but what are the odds of that? I would say that western citizens standing up to their government isn't something non white countries do on a large enough scale to have a lasting impact. Even if the people were able to seize control, chances are the next regime is just as corrupt. 

[kilroy69 990]

It's a matter of pragmatism for them. The state IS the religion and much like a Highlander. There can be only one. 

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

1 minute ago, kilroy69 said:

It's a matter of pragmatism for them. The state IS the religion and much like a Highlander. There can be only one. 

Are you watching Outlander on Netflix? Wondering if that influenced your correlation

[Djgb13 2,338]

6 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

Inclusion is the new buzzword for many western churches.  There's a major schism on the horizon in the United Methodist Church.  It's apparently not enough to live and let live.  We now must openly fight for their cause, whatever that may be.  

I personally just don’t care. If you wanna be gay, be transgendered, be non-binary then do it. I don’t care. I don’t agree with it cause biologically man is supposed to be with woman. But I’m not gonna condemn them or treat them bad (as long as they are nice). Just don’t come telling me what I can and can’t do or what I should believe and what I shouldn’t. I don’t push my Christian values on people so I don’t want others to do that to me. Don’t focking flip out cause I say he/she and they are like “NO! It’s they/them!!! Use my correct pronoun!” Firing people sh1t like that is retarded. The whole Cancel Culture is 

[vuduchile 1,940]

12 minutes ago, Djgb13 said:

I personally just don’t care. If you wanna be gay, be transgendered, be non-binary then do it. I don’t care. I don’t agree with it cause biologically man is supposed to be with woman. But I’m not gonna condemn them or treat them bad (as long as they are nice). Just don’t come telling me what I can and can’t do or what I should believe and what I shouldn’t. I don’t push my Christian values on people so I don’t want others to do that to me. Don’t focking flip out cause I say he/she and they are like “NO! It’s they/them!!! Use my correct pronoun!” Firing people sh1t like that is retarded. The whole Cancel Culture is 

What you're describing is live and let live.  Per many church leaders, that's not good enough anymore.  

[kilroy69 990]

1 hour ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Are you watching Outlander on Netflix? Wondering if that influenced your correlation

I don't have Netflix or even know what outlander is about. 

Communism can't stand any religion. Doesn't matter who or what it is. If your loyalty is to a religion it can't be to the state so they view all religion as dangerous. It's either religion or the state. No grey area. 

 

Also. I do not wan to sound like I am pro communism. I am not. I am a realist when it comes to China. I think it takes that type of approach to be able to understand them and I think Taiwan is theirs to do with as they please. 

[TimmySmith 2,782]

29 minutes ago, kilroy69 said:

It's a matter of pragmatism for them. The state IS the religion and much like a Highlander. There can be only one. 

Pragmatism is the religion of Communism. It supports all evils.

[DonS 3,063]

54 minutes ago, Djgb13 said:

There’s one down here in Charleston that has ALOT of that. Pastor is extremely young and hippie looking. They have quite a few transgenders and gay people there. Only reason I know this is cause I saw an ad on fb when I was looking for a church to start going to 

Congrats on finding your new church!  Did you have to stand up and introduce yourself with your preferred pronouns? 

 

(sorry, couldn't resist that softball) 

[Djgb13 2,338]

2 hours ago, vuduchile said:

What you're describing is live and let live.  Per many church leaders, that's not good enough anymore.  

Oh I know they don’t. But that’s them. I have my own philosophy and it works well. 

[MDC 5,874]

3 hours ago, vuduchile said:

Can't speak to the Catholic viewpoint, but you'd likely be disappointed in the progressive stances many Christian churches have taken on LGBT issues.  

They read the writing on the wall and realize they’re losing congregants. I know a lot of former Catholics and many of them cite the church’s stance on LGBT and hypocrisy of the child abuse scandals as the reason why. 

[iam90sbaby 2,118]

6 hours ago, Voltaire said:

Personally, I'm more sympathetic to religion lately than I have been. I have been agnostic/atheist my whole time here, but eh, I've been warming to my Catholic upbringing more and more lately, not because it's making any more sense than it has, but I do/always have recognize the church's key role in Western history and see them as allies in the fight against neo-Marxist post modernist bullsh*t. Plus I really like Jordan Peterson's approach to religion to the point that I, for the first time ever, found myself disagreeing with Richard Dawkins on the issue in favor of Peterson's position. Further, I really liked seeing how Jacob Rees-Mogg used his Catholicism as air cover when debating transgender issues and thought that if I ever had to publicly debate transgender issues, that I would love to use the same tactic. 

Same here 

Can you explain the Dawkins/Peterson thing more?

[iam90sbaby 2,118]

5 hours ago, Djgb13 said:

I personally just don’t care. If you wanna be gay, be transgendered, be non-binary then do it. I don’t care. I don’t agree with it cause biologically man is supposed to be with woman. But I’m not gonna condemn them or treat them bad (as long as they are nice). Just don’t come telling me what I can and can’t do or what I should believe and what I shouldn’t. I don’t push my Christian values on people so I don’t want others to do that to me. Don’t focking flip out cause I say he/she and they are like “NO! It’s they/them!!! Use my correct pronoun!” Firing people sh1t like that is retarded. The whole Cancel Culture is 

Okay cool, but lets not give gays the same government benefits in marriage that a straight heterosexual couple gets, they don't provide anything valuable society.  They also shouldn't be allowed to adopt.  But sure we shouldn't arrest people for it I agree.  Transgenders should be in mental institution they are unstable people and shouldn't just be socially accepted the way they are.

How did we take this so far out to left field in less than ten years, I seriously don't get it.  Transgenders are focking weird and a burden on society and gays are still degenerates, its just not illegal to be a degenerate anymore

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

2 hours ago, iam90sbaby said:

Okay cool, but lets not give gays the same government benefits in marriage that a straight heterosexual couple gets, they don't provide anything valuable society.  They also shouldn't be allowed to adopt.  But sure we shouldn't arrest people for it I agree.  Transgenders should be in mental institution they are unstable people and shouldn't just be socially accepted the way they are.

How did we take this so far out to left field in less than ten years, I seriously don't get it.  Transgenders are focking weird and a burden on society and gays are still degenerates, its just not illegal to be a degenerate anymore

Gays are degenerates? I don't see the correlation there. That's an extremely broad brush

[iam90sbaby 2,118]

5 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Gays are degenerates? I don't see the correlation there. That's an extremely broad brush

Yes gheys are disgusting degenerates 

[DonS 3,063]

I don't have any issues with ghey folks. Love who you love and enjoy the marriage tax like the rest of us if you want to make it "official".  Doesn't impact me any. 

Trannies and the entire made up "gender is whatever the fock I want it to be" on the other hand is totally different. Fock those freaks and their made up pronouns.

It's a bit "queer" how thosr same purple haired freaks they/thems that discard scientific gender facts will be the first to b1tch at global warming deniers as being anti-science. 

[Voltaire 4,550]

2 hours ago, iam90sbaby said:

Same here 

Can you explain the Dawkins/Peterson thing more?

Christianity stopped making sense to me largely because I couldn't wrap my head around the creation myth being wrong and other obvious errors of the writers of the Bible. The book, to me clearly isn't divinely inspired, the evidence seems clear that it was written by fallible people 2000-6000 years ago. There are contradictions in it. If what they are claiming as facts in the real world turn out to be well educated guesses that seemed credible 2000 years ago, that turned out to be wrong, how can I turn the page to the metaphysical after death stuff and take that seriously? I can't.

But I never did break with the teachings on how to live a good life, and the morality and how to treat people. I respect the cultural and historical contributions that Christianity has made over the last 2000 years. (Mostly, mostly, they stepped on their d*cks with Galileo and Copernicus and the Inquisitions and that has never set well.) Plus, I miss the sense of community.

Then, there was all the Satanic panic of the '80s in music and games plus the creation science nonsense of the 00s, trying to put that into schools and I remained hostile to religion. But that stuff is behind us. This lack of religious underpinnings has led to moral relativism, LBGTQ+ nonsense, and post-modern bullsh*t that disgusts me and needs to be put back in the box.

So when Jordan Peterson says he "acts like God exists." That speaks to me. I think God is a fairy tale, but I think I'm better off acting like he does exist. I following the teachings of the church for their own value, rewards or punishments in the afterlife or no. I want to keep the good parts of Christianity that I like and get rid of the parts I don't. Following the ancient wisdom keeps you out of trouble and moving forward, allows you to raise a good solid family, and it also makes you a contributing member of your community and your society. I look at how society/culture is devolving with the severely waning influence of religion and realize that people still need that and realize  better the value of the Christian upbringing I had even as I miracles and promises of heaven or threats of hell are lies. I see empty soulless people devoid or purpose, meaning, loyalty or a sense of duty and after a sip of that, I don't like the taste.

When Jordan Peterson analyzes the Bible story for meanings, he sees the stories and the ancient wisdom as archetypal stories that replay and does so through a lens of evolutionary biology and clinical psychology and I just love his take on it all.

[Bier Meister 1,512]

shouldn't foreigners assimilate? 

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

2 hours ago, Bier Meister said:

shouldn't foreigners assimilate? 

Id have to have a lobotomy to assimilate here. 

[JustinCharge 2,397]

The far left doesn't truly believe in gay rights.  They believe in destroying America.  If America was a capitalist nation that accepted gays, the far left would oppose gay rights.  Support of gay rights is just about making Americans feel guilty about everything.  If the far left took over, the first up against the wall would be the homosexuals.

[Voltaire 4,550]

2 hours ago, riversco said:

The far left doesn't truly believe in gay rights.  They believe in destroying America.  If America was a capitalist nation that accepted gays, the far left would oppose gay rights.  Support of gay rights is just about making Americans feel guilty about everything.  If the far left took over, the first up against the wall would be the homosexuals.

I doubt it. The LGBTQ+ people are the top of the top of the intersectional pyramid and hold the most esteem.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

3 hours ago, riversco said:

The far left doesn't truly believe in gay rights.  They believe in destroying America.  If America was a capitalist nation that accepted gays, the far left would oppose gay rights.  Support of gay rights is just about making Americans feel guilty about everything.  If the far left took over, the first up against the wall would be the homosexuals.

The left supports gay rights because gays have money, and they donate it to the left. 

[TimmySmith 2,782]

1 hour ago, Voltaire said:

I doubt it. The LGBTQ+ people are the top of the top of the intersectional pyramid and hold the most esteem.

The gays have a natural tendency toward getting in the ear of very powerful people. They end up running or at least having a heavy influence on many things without actually running them. 

[peenie 1,690]

20 hours ago, Voltaire said:

 Plus I really like Jordan Peterson's approach to religion to the point that I, for the first time ever, found myself disagreeing with Richard Dawkins on the issue in favor of Peterson's position. Further, I really liked seeing how Jacob Rees-Mogg used his Catholicism as air cover when debating transgender issues and thought that if I ever had to publicly debate transgender issues, that I would love to use the same tactic. 

My daughter loves Jordan Peterson. She even said she wishes she could marry him. I'm like wtf? Why is everyone talking about this guy so much recently?

[Voltaire 4,550]

12 minutes ago, peenie said:

My daughter loves Jordan Peterson. She even said she wishes she could marry him. I'm like wtf? Why is everyone talking about this guy so much recently?

His wife is rather seriously ill but those are (potentially) hard shoes to fill considering they grew up together a few houses apart in northern Alberta.

Also, while I'm at it, I think marrying into the peenie family is a good move. A guy could be happy doing that. 

[JustinCharge 2,397]

5 hours ago, Voltaire said:

I doubt it. The LGBTQ+ people are the top of the top of the intersectional pyramid and hold the most esteem.

Proof is in how we've seen it before in Russia.  The communists embraced all sorts of alternative lifestyles when bidding to overthrow the czar.  Once the communists took over Russia, their first move was the purge their ranks of all the subversives and get *very* conservative.  We saw it with the nazis.  The nazis originally swelled their ranks with people on the edges of society.  Once they converted the middle class to their cause, that became their core group and they purged the freaks in the Night of the Long Knives.  We saw it in the french revolution.  The French revolution started out as civilian riots and extremist sects.  Once the revolution won the backing of the military and upper crust the extremist factions got blown out.

This repeatedly happens.  I can guarantee you with absolute confidence that if the far left gets its socialist revolution, they will slaughter the LGBTQ+ society.  Likely the people of color they so adamantly protect as well.  its ALL a fraud from them on every level.  Those groups are "useful idiots" that are to be discarded once they win the middle and upper class.  LGBTQ+ groups and minorities are being lied to with promises that will never be delivered by the left.  Unfortunately, people tend to believe words not actions.

[peenie 1,690]

Interesting POV

[iam90sbaby 2,118]

20 hours ago, DonS said:

I don't have any issues with ghey folks. Love who you love and enjoy the marriage tax like the rest of us if you want to make it "official".  Doesn't impact me any. 

Trannies and the entire made up "gender is whatever the fock I want it to be" on the other hand is totally different. Fock those freaks and their made up pronouns.

It's a bit "queer" how thosr same purple haired freaks they/thems that discard scientific gender facts will be the first to b1tch at global warming deniers as being anti-science. 

Why though?  Its my understanding that marriage tax benefits were originally implemented to promote birthrates.  Marriage tax cuts for gheys doesn't make any logical sense at all and a government shouldn't promote homosexuality by giving the same benefits to them as they do a heterosexual couple.  This acceptance of gheys the last 20-30 years is one of the reason our culture is in the sh!tter, it paved the road to transgenderism and a number of other things.  I don't think we should throw them in jail, even though I wouldn't care if we did, I just don't think they should get any benefits for being in that relationship.  No one should be rewarded for that.

[DonS 3,063]

15 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

Why though?  Its my understanding that marriage tax benefits were originally implemented to promote birthrates.  Marriage tax cuts for gheys doesn't make any logical sense at all and a government shouldn't promote homosexuality by giving the same benefits to them as they do a heterosexual couple.  Not illegal? Sure. Benefits? Hell no.

You misunderstood my use of the term "marriage tax" as I intended it as a negative. Might not be a thing any longer, but when my wife and I were married back in NY 25 yrs ago we discovered that filing taxes as "married filed jointly" the next year cost us more than if we had just legally changed her name and filed separately.

Edit: guess it's still a thing:

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/07/01/marriage-penalty-tax-affects-some-newlyweds.html

 

[BudBro 116]

20 hours ago, Voltaire said:

When Jordan Peterson analyzes the Bible story for meanings, he sees the stories and the ancient wisdom as archetypal stories that replay and does so through a lens of evolutionary biology and clinical psychology and I just love his take on it all.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.  The only thing he's missing is that the Bible is offering more than a good life and moral society...it offers abundant and eternal life.  The words we've been given in our various translations, such as "propitiation" and "substitute," conjure up images of pagan gods...offended gods who require a sacrifice to be appeased.  That isn't the God of the Bible, and that isn't the story of Christ.  You might enjoy looking at the middle passages of Lev 16 as the shadow of atonement...2 goats, one dies, one doesn't.  Check and see if what we've been taught matches.

[sderk 1,040]

I kind of a Joseph Campbell fan. Even though he has his flaws in his work, he is pretty interesting in his take on mythology in various times and cultures and how it is used. Lot more too actually.