onside kick alternative to be tested at pro bowl

[Ray_T 587]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001098234/article/nfl-to-test-out-two-potential-rule-changes-in-pro-bowl

Personally a 4th and 15 for the kicking team at their own 25 isnt quite the way I'd set it up.  it needs to be setup so that a successful completion would almost put the team in scoring position.

while I'd wager,  the odds of completing are about the same as the onside kick, I think if it was at the 30 or 35 yard line you would see more exciting endings because a first down puts you near midfield.

either way I dont mind the idea.   or even having this as an alternative (where you can do this or the onside kick currently allowed by the rules)

[weepaws 2,452]

Sorry but you can’t take away the excitement of the kick return. 

Of course the nfl is concern once again about the health of the players, I get that , I understand that, I’m all for it, but how much more watered down can you make this game. 

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,107]

8 hours ago, weepaws said:

Sorry but you can’t take away the excitement of the kick return. 

Of course the nfl is concern once again about the health of the players, I get that , I understand that, I’m all for it, but how much more watered down can you make this game. 

 

Generally, there's no chance of a kick return on an onside kick, but I'd think a pick 6 would replace it quite easily.

[TBayXXXVII 2,107]

16 hours ago, Ray_T said:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001098234/article/nfl-to-test-out-two-potential-rule-changes-in-pro-bowl

Personally a 4th and 15 for the kicking team at their own 25 isnt quite the way I'd set it up.  it needs to be setup so that a successful completion would almost put the team in scoring position.

while I'd wager,  the odds of completing are about the same as the onside kick, I think if it was at the 30 or 35 yard line you would see more exciting endings because a first down puts you near midfield.

either way I dont mind the idea.   or even having this as an alternative (where you can do this or the onside kick currently allowed by the rules)

I'm thinking that there's a chance that this rule can really alter how teams play the game.  Generally, teams have backups and backups to backups on Special Teams, so fresh players.  Say an offense has a nice long drive where they took 8+ minutes off the board and scored a TD.  They have all the momentum and the defense is gassed.  Why not try an "onside kick" and force that gassed defense back on the field for another try?

[weepaws 2,452]

38 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Generally, there's no chance of a kick return on an onside kick, but I'd think a pick 6 would replace it quite easily.

From what I read, the scoring team can make the decision to have the ball placed at the opponents 25 instead of kicking off to them. 

So that indeed does take away from any chance of a kick return.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,107]

3 minutes ago, weepaws said:

From what I read, the scoring team can make the decision to have the ball placed at the opponents 25 instead of kicking off to them. 

So that indeed does take away from any chance of a kick return.  

Ok, I just read the OP about the onside kick portion, not the article (link). 

[weepaws 2,452]

No problem. 

Thank you. 

[Byrdman5 104]

On 1/21/2020 at 2:40 PM, Ray_T said:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001098234/article/nfl-to-test-out-two-potential-rule-changes-in-pro-bowl

Personally a 4th and 15 for the kicking team at their own 25 isnt quite the way I'd set it up.  it needs to be setup so that a successful completion would almost put the team in scoring position.

while I'd wager,  the odds of completing are about the same as the onside kick, I think if it was at the 30 or 35 yard line you would see more exciting endings because a first down puts you near midfield.

either way I dont mind the idea.   or even having this as an alternative (where you can do this or the onside kick currently allowed by the rules)

I think the 25 yard line is legit. Teams should be penalized if they fail, which would mostly result in a field goal by the other team. A failed onside kick would give the ball to the other team the ball at about the 45 yard line. So that’s about a difference of 20 yards. But a 4th and 15 has a better chance of success than an onside kick.

 

NFL teams attempted fourth-and-15 (or more) plays 25 times in 2019, converting 6 of 25 attempts (24 percent). The onside kick conversion rate has dropped in recent years, going from 21 percent in 2017 to under 10 percent over the past two years.

[TBayXXXVII 2,107]

18 hours ago, Byrdman5 said:

I think the 25 yard line is legit. Teams should be penalized if they fail, which would mostly result in a field goal by the other team. A failed onside kick would give the ball to the other team the ball at about the 45 yard line. So that’s about a difference of 20 yards. But a 4th and 15 has a better chance of success than an onside kick.

 

NFL teams attempted fourth-and-15 (or more) plays 25 times in 2019, converting 6 of 25 attempts (24 percent). The onside kick conversion rate has dropped in recent years, going from 21 percent in 2017 to under 10 percent over the past two years.

This tells me that before they made on-side kicks virtually impossible, they were on par with the 4th and 15 rate.  That would tell me that the 25 yard line is too harsh.  I'd think that the best spot would be where the play ended.  If you start on the 35 and get the 15 yards, starting at mid-field or beyond is fine... if you miss it, say getting 7 yards, I don't see how the other team getting the ball on the opponent's 42 isn't enough of a bonus.

[Ray_T 587]

On 1/22/2020 at 8:24 PM, Byrdman5 said:

I think the 25 yard line is legit. Teams should be penalized if they fail, which would mostly result in a field goal by the other team. A failed onside kick would give the ball to the other team the ball at about the 45 yard line. So that’s about a difference of 20 yards. But a 4th and 15 has a better chance of success than an onside kick.

 

NFL teams attempted fourth-and-15 (or more) plays 25 times in 2019, converting 6 of 25 attempts (24 percent). The onside kick conversion rate has dropped in recent years, going from 21 percent in 2017 to under 10 percent over the past two years.

ok so currently a failed onside gives the opponent the ball on the 45 yard line.

should we not set this up so the situation is  roughly the same?

4th and 15 from the 40 yard line.   with a first down getting you in the opponents zone and a failure putting the opponent just outside of FG range.

seems reasonable to me.

Just sayin.....

[JustinCharge 2,397]

I would expect teams to run hook and ladder plays to try to get the 15 yards.  I mean there's not much downside to it. 

I would also expect some teams to deploy their punter on the play, allowing them to do a "Quick kick" if they don't like what the defenses are doing.  Other teams might have their QB practice a Quick kick and you'd see QBs punting themselves on the play.  And the threat of a Quick kick will force defenses to put someone deep to field it, making it harder to defend an actual scrimmage play to convert for a 1st down.  Of course that means most teams will go shotgun to make it look like a Quick kick might be coming.   All of this could then bleed over into regular games, and 4th and long plays throughout the game might always have a punter out there or QBs punting.

Also, why call it 4th down?  There weren't 3 downs prior.  Its more like an untimed down (altho the clock will run I assume), or a "try for possession" or "conversion try".  However, I think the difference is that a "try" can be run back by the defense for 2 points, while a "scrimmage play" can be run back by the defense for a touchdown.  So maybe the best term is "scrimmage play" because the defense can score a TD off it.

But just calling it 4th down seems sloppy.  Its not 4th down. 

[Ray_T 587]

On 1/29/2020 at 5:23 AM, riversco said:

I would expect teams to run hook and ladder plays to try to get the 15 yards.  I mean there's not much downside to it. 

I would also expect some teams to deploy their punter on the play, allowing them to do a "Quick kick" if they don't like what the defenses are doing.  Other teams might have their QB practice a Quick kick and you'd see QBs punting themselves on the play.  And the threat of a Quick kick will force defenses to put someone deep to field it, making it harder to defend an actual scrimmage play to convert for a 1st down.  Of course that means most teams will go shotgun to make it look like a Quick kick might be coming.   All of this could then bleed over into regular games, and 4th and long plays throughout the game might always have a punter out there or QBs punting.

Also, why call it 4th down?  There weren't 3 downs prior.  Its more like an untimed down (altho the clock will run I assume), or a "try for possession" or "conversion try".  However, I think the difference is that a "try" can be run back by the defense for 2 points, while a "scrimmage play" can be run back by the defense for a touchdown.  So maybe the best term is "scrimmage play" because the defense can score a TD off it.

But just calling it 4th down seems sloppy.  Its not 4th down. 

I dont think it matters what they call it.   

Perhaps marketing will come up with a name for the play that will appeal to the people.

What matters is that they get the ball and have one play to get 15 yards.  I think its a reasonable alternative

[posty 2,296]

On 1/29/2020 at 7:23 AM, riversco said:

Also, why call it 4th down?  There weren't 3 downs prior.  Its more like an untimed down (altho the clock will run I assume), or a "try for possession" or "conversion try".  However, I think the difference is that a "try" can be run back by the defense for 2 points, while a "scrimmage play" can be run back by the defense for a touchdown.  So maybe the best term is "scrimmage play" because the defense can score a TD off it.

But just calling it 4th down seems sloppy.  Its not 4th down. 

Because if they don't call it that, casual fans will wonder why if they didn't pick up the fifteen yards on the play, why they didn't get more chances...

The NFL goes with a majority of viewers being idiots...

[Ray_T 587]

12 hours ago, posty said:

Because if they don't call it that, casual fans will wonder why if they didn't pick up the fifteen yards on the play, why they didn't get more chances...

The NFL goes with a majority of viewers being idiots...

probably a fair comment. (sad to say)