The Myth of Systemic Police Racism

[Alias Detective 1,179]

14 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

 

I commented on this issue in another thread. I don't know that we have a systemic issue with race and police enforcement. I do think that we may have an issue with having a bunch of shitty police officers due to watering down requirements and expectations (along with police unions who defend bad officers).

Pat, look at what you typed.  The racial warriors disagree 100%.  Otherwise, they wouldn’t be burning their cities down.  This is why many are so pissed at the left supporting this claim that factually is not true.

[Utilit99 4,099]

8 minutes ago, The Observer said:

Meanwhile, the only responses we've gotten from our president is to tell governors they need to be tough and this is a street war and they need to dominate. And to tear gas peaceful protesters for a photo op.  It is chillingly obvious that this country has no leader right now. He is leading 35% of us.

I know you have a one track mind, and are not able to comprehend an article that doesn't show pictures, but this thread is about the dumb ass people who think there is a problem with police targeting black people. 

You obviously have no thoughts on that and don't know how to read an article and comment on it with intelligence. 

So start an "I hate Trump thread and be done with it."

[The Observer 641]

19 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

 

I commented on this issue in another thread. The OP is a little off on her stats, but I don't know that we have a systemic issue with race and police enforcement. I do think that we may have an issue with having a bunch of shitty police officers due to watering down requirements and expectations (along with police unions who defend bad officers).

This is really the perfect storm. Racial tension that has spread throughout the country and exposed just how horrible our police force is. Takes longer to get a degree to be a bartender than to be a police officer. And now we're seeing a bunch of ill-tempered. over matched, under trained asswholes escalating instead of calming situations.  

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

4 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

Pat, look at what you typed.  The racial warriors disagree 100%.  Otherwise, they wouldn’t be burning their cities down.  This is why many are so pissed at the left supporting this claim that factually is not true.

I don't support the BLM movement completely and I don't support the anti-BLM folks completely. 

I don't think that there are as many of the "racial warriors" as you do. I also don't think that there is "no" problem with race in this country. I know that people just love to have things being clear-cut, black-and-white. It is either this or that. Things are far more complicated than that, you can actually have people who think that:

- there are racial problems in the US. Have had them from Day 1 and, while there have been improvements, we don't treat people equally.

- the police have a problem with bad apples that they just aren't addressing

- the solution is not just a matter of getting rid of the police or reparations, or anything else that is quick-fix

[Alias Detective 1,179]

Just now, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

I don't support the BLM movement completely and I don't support the anti-BLM folks completely. 

I don't think that there are as many of the "racial warriors" as you do. I also don't think that there is "no" problem with race in this country. I know that people just love to have things being clear-cut, black-and-white. It is either this or that. Things are far more complicated than that, you can actually have people who think that:

- there are racial problems in the US. Have had them from Day 1 and, while there have been improvements, we don't treat people equally.

- the police have a problem with bad apples that they just aren't addressing

- the solution is not just a matter of getting rid of the police or reparations, or anything else that is quick-fix

Do you think looting and burning down cities is helping the cause?  

[Utilit99 4,099]

6 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

 

- the police have a problem with bad apples that they just aren't addressing

 

What is the problem? Post facts about how  the cops are racist and what they are doing wrong and then a follow up argument about it. 

 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

3 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

Do you think looting and burning down cities is helping the cause?  

Absolutely not. It is done. Peaceful protests are good. Looting and rioting is not. I also don't think that the police should be breaking up peaceful protests like they did for Trump's photo op.

[Alias Detective 1,179]

2 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

Absolutely not. It is done. Peaceful protests are good. Looting and rioting is not. I also don't think that the police should be breaking up peaceful protests like they did for Trump's photo op.

Well, a peaceful protest can continue when the protesters, who were asked and warned to move, actually move.  If those peaceful protestors do not listen to police expect a show of force.  Really simple to me.

[Utilit99 4,099]

4 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

Well, a peaceful protest can continue when the protesters, who were asked and warned to move, actually move.  If those peaceful protestors do not listen to police expect a show of force.  Really simple to me.

Yep. And after all the violence that has been going on, I would expect the police to take that type of stance. It's what my taxes go towards. I don't want cops standing down to anyone in a time like this. 

When times get better pretty soon, then that's a different story.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

20 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

Well, a peaceful protest can continue when the protesters, who were asked and warned to move, actually move.  If those peaceful protestors do not listen to police expect a show of force.  Really simple to me.

If the police have peaceful protestors move just because they want them moved (i.e. before curfew, no events, etc.), then there will be problems. We have this thing called the First Amendment and there was a reason that is was put first in the Bill of Rights.

[Alias Detective 1,179]

Just now, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

If the police have peaceful protestors move just because they want them moved (i.e. before curfew, no events, etc.), then there will be problems. We have this thing called the First Amendment and there was a reason that is was put first in the Bill of Rights.

Do police have a first amendment right while on the job?  I don’t know just curious.

[Alias Detective 1,179]

Also, if a person can make an arbitrary curfew can the same person change the arbitrary curfew?  Let that soak in your Mellon a bit.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Just now, Alias Detective said:

Do police have a first amendment right while on the job?  I don’t know just curious.

I doubt they get fired for swearing at someone, but my guess is that their department/force tells them to take a day off if they want to protest. In uniform, they are supposed to be professionals.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

1 minute ago, Alias Detective said:

Also, if a person can make an arbitrary curfew can the same person change the arbitrary curfew?  Let that soak in your Mellon a bit.

"A person" being a duly elected governor or mayor?

[Alias Detective 1,179]

1 minute ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

"A person" being a duly elected governor or mayor?

Duly elected commander of chief maybe?  Or is he not high enough on the totem pole?

[Utilit99 4,099]

9 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

If the police have peaceful protestors move just because they want them moved (i.e. before curfew, no events, etc.), then there will be problems. We have this thing called the First Amendment and there was a reason that is was put first in the Bill of Rights.

I don't know why you keep treating this whole situation like it's someone protesting fishing for tuna.

It's a bigger issue and needs a bigger amount of control. 

Again back to the article. There is no systemic police racism in this country. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,583]

9 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

If the police have peaceful protestors move just because they want them moved (i.e. before curfew, no events, etc.), then there will be problems. We have this thing called the First Amendment and there was a reason that is was put first in the Bill of Rights.

You have a right to protest but the police also have a right to ask you to leave and use force if you fail to comply. 

[Utilit99 4,099]

Just now, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

You have a right to protest but the police also have a right to ask you to leave and use force if you fail to comply. 

I can't see why people don't see the difference between some dumb protest and what the violent shlt that is going on in this country right now. It's mind boggling. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

1 hour ago, The Observer said:

Meanwhile, the only responses we've gotten from our president is to tell governors they need to be tough and this is a street war and they need to dominate. And to tear gas peaceful protesters for a photo op.  It is chillingly obvious that this country has no leader right now. He is leading 35% of us.

No matter what Trump would say, because your side is full of garbage human beings, his message would be twisted around.  There is a 0% chance that the Democrats would ever support Trump on anything.  They're too afraid of him.

I don't know, a delegator telling people to do their jobs, does seem like the right message.  I guess you like it when people tell you what to do so that you don't have to take on your own responsibilities.  WAIT!!!  That's right.  You're a Democrat!  Duh, what was I thinking?    Here, I thought you would want EVERYONE to do their jobs.  No, you want everyone else to do your job for you.  Sorry, my bad.

[Fireballer 2,381]

Are any arguments being made in this thread based on stats?

[Utilit99 4,099]

5 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Are any arguments being made in this thread based on stats?

I don't think I heard one. And that was the point of the post. I'm not sure why people don't want to have a chat about if police truly have a racist agenda or not? Isn't that the main subject of all these "protests"? 

Or is it, everyone simply realizes the truth that cops are not the bad guys and the left is pushing a false narrative to destroy the country?

[Masshole 642]

Another solid article debunking the "white cops want to kill the black man" narrative.   The author is, I believe, AA and is a 3rd term member (each term is 6 yrs) of US commision on civil rights:

The indefensible killing — captured on video — of George Floyd, following closely after the release of video showing the killing of Ahmaud Arbery, triggered the riots, looting, and conflagrations that have engulfed scores of cities across the country. As horrific as these killings were, it’s questionable whether, in isolation, they would’ve prompted riots on the scale and in the numbers that have occurred in the last week. Demonstrations, sure. On a visceral level, the videos almost compel them. But nationwide riots would be unlikely.

Rather, the riots are a result of the narrative that the Floyd and Arbery killings are but the latest of increasing examples of innocent blacks being disproportionately shot by white cops and targeted by racist white civilians. The narrative is played hourly on cable news shows. It’s embellished by major newspapers across the country. Cynical and opportunistic politicians advance it every election cycle. Hollywood perpetuates the narrative in television and theaters. It’s a mantra of high-school teachers and college professors, regardless of academic discipline. Major corporations apologize for their nebulous complicity. The narrative is a staple of diversity and inclusion offices. It’s ubiquitous on social media.

The narrative has been repeated so frequently, so universally, that it’s an unassailable given, a fact not to be challenged. Indeed, it’s an article of faith which, if questioned, exposes the heretic to rage, venom, and ostracization. Some fear losing their jobs. Best therefore, not to even consider questioning the narrative.

The narrative is false. In fact, it’s not just false, it’s upside down. And it’s been false for quite some time. There are racist cops in a nation of 330 million. But 2020 America isn’t 1965 Selma.

In short, the data make clear that blacks are, indeed, overrepresented among victims of police shootings, but underrepresented relative to black overrepresentation in crime, particularly violent crime.

Some media recently ran the story that blacks are twice as likely as whites to be shot by cops. On its face, that’s true. But the statement doesn’t consider the comparable encounters with police, especially in high-risk situations, that are likely to prompt exchanges of gunfire or other forms of violence. Consider the following, from the 2018 National Crime Victimization Survey, Census data, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, and other sources: (For extended discussion, see my dissenting statement to the 2018 U.S. Commission on Civil Rights Report: Police Use of Force: Examination of Modern Police Practices, p. 197. Unless otherwise noted, most of the data is from 2018.)

• In 2016, 466 whites were killed by police; 233 blacks were killed by police.
• Whites are 76.5 percent of the U.S. population (including Hispanics); blacks are 13.4 percent of the U.S. population.
• Whites commit 59 percent of violent crimes (defined as murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, aggravated assault); blacks commit 37.5 percent of violent crimes.
• One out of 8,511 blacks is arrested for murder; one in 58,582 whites is arrested for murder.
• Blacks are approximately 6.8 times more likely than whites to be arrested for murder.
• One out of 2,800,438 blacks is arrested for killing a cop; one of 7,674,278 whites is arrested for killing a cop.
• Blacks are 2.74 times more likely than whites to be arrested for killing a cop.
• In 2016, 66 cops were killed in the line of duty; 32 whites and 15 blacks were identified as the killers.
• More than twice as many blacks (533) murdered whites in 2016 than whites (243) murdered blacks.
• Black males are 6 percent of the U.S. population. Black males are responsible for 42 percent of cop killings in the last decade.
• In 2015, a cop was 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male was likely to be killed by a cop.
• In 2016, 222 black males were killed by police. 16 were unarmed. 445 white males were killed by police. 20 were unarmed.

Contrary to the tweets and posts of some celebrities, blacks aren’t being “hunted” by whites. As Heather Mac Donald notes:

Between 2012 and 2015, blacks committed 85.5 percent of all black-white interracial violent victimizations (excluding interracial homicide, which is also disproportionately black-on-white). That works out to 540,360 felonious assaults on whites. Whites committed 14.4 percent of all interracial violent victimizations, or 91,470 felonious assaults on blacks.

The false narrative has devastating consequences to society. Death, destruction, and division are but a few. The aftermath to the false Michael Brown narrative is just one example. The devastation in Baltimore is another.

Riots are inevitable the next time a black person dies in police custody. People will be killed, property and livelihoods will be destroyed. The false narrative ensures that.

 

 

[HTH 67]

1 hour ago, Masshole said:

Another solid article debunking the "white cops want to kill the black man" narrative.   The author is, I believe, AA and is a 3rd term member (each term is 6 yrs) of US commision on civil rights:

The indefensible killing — captured on video — of George Floyd, following closely after the release of video showing the killing of Ahmaud Arbery, triggered the riots, looting, and conflagrations that have engulfed scores of cities across the country. As horrific as these killings were, it’s questionable whether, in isolation, they would’ve prompted riots on the scale and in the numbers that have occurred in the last week. Demonstrations, sure. On a visceral level, the videos almost compel them. But nationwide riots would be unlikely.

Rather, the riots are a result of the narrative that the Floyd and Arbery killings are but the latest of increasing examples of innocent blacks being disproportionately shot by white cops and targeted by racist white civilians. The narrative is played hourly on cable news shows. It’s embellished by major newspapers across the country. Cynical and opportunistic politicians advance it every election cycle. Hollywood perpetuates the narrative in television and theaters. It’s a mantra of high-school teachers and college professors, regardless of academic discipline. Major corporations apologize for their nebulous complicity. The narrative is a staple of diversity and inclusion offices. It’s ubiquitous on social media.

The narrative has been repeated so frequently, so universally, that it’s an unassailable given, a fact not to be challenged. Indeed, it’s an article of faith which, if questioned, exposes the heretic to rage, venom, and ostracization. Some fear losing their jobs. Best therefore, not to even consider questioning the narrative.

The narrative is false. In fact, it’s not just false, it’s upside down. And it’s been false for quite some time. There are racist cops in a nation of 330 million. But 2020 America isn’t 1965 Selma.

In short, the data make clear that blacks are, indeed, overrepresented among victims of police shootings, but underrepresented relative to black overrepresentation in crime, particularly violent crime.

Some media recently ran the story that blacks are twice as likely as whites to be shot by cops. On its face, that’s true. But the statement doesn’t consider the comparable encounters with police, especially in high-risk situations, that are likely to prompt exchanges of gunfire or other forms of violence. Consider the following, from the 2018 National Crime Victimization Survey, Census data, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, and other sources: (For extended discussion, see my dissenting statement to the 2018 U.S. Commission on Civil Rights Report: Police Use of Force: Examination of Modern Police Practices, p. 197. Unless otherwise noted, most of the data is from 2018.)

• In 2016, 466 whites were killed by police; 233 blacks were killed by police.
• Whites are 76.5 percent of the U.S. population (including Hispanics); blacks are 13.4 percent of the U.S. population.
• Whites commit 59 percent of violent crimes (defined as murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, aggravated assault); blacks commit 37.5 percent of violent crimes.
• One out of 8,511 blacks is arrested for murder; one in 58,582 whites is arrested for murder.
• Blacks are approximately 6.8 times more likely than whites to be arrested for murder.
• One out of 2,800,438 blacks is arrested for killing a cop; one of 7,674,278 whites is arrested for killing a cop.
• Blacks are 2.74 times more likely than whites to be arrested for killing a cop.
• In 2016, 66 cops were killed in the line of duty; 32 whites and 15 blacks were identified as the killers.
• More than twice as many blacks (533) murdered whites in 2016 than whites (243) murdered blacks.
• Black males are 6 percent of the U.S. population. Black males are responsible for 42 percent of cop killings in the last decade.
• In 2015, a cop was 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male was likely to be killed by a cop.
• In 2016, 222 black males were killed by police. 16 were unarmed. 445 white males were killed by police. 20 were unarmed.

Contrary to the tweets and posts of some celebrities, blacks aren’t being “hunted” by whites. As Heather Mac Donald notes:

Between 2012 and 2015, blacks committed 85.5 percent of all black-white interracial violent victimizations (excluding interracial homicide, which is also disproportionately black-on-white). That works out to 540,360 felonious assaults on whites. Whites committed 14.4 percent of all interracial violent victimizations, or 91,470 felonious assaults on blacks.

The false narrative has devastating consequences to society. Death, destruction, and division are but a few. The aftermath to the false Michael Brown narrative is just one example. The devastation in Baltimore is another.

Riots are inevitable the next time a black person dies in police custody. People will be killed, property and livelihoods will be destroyed. The false narrative ensures that.

 

 

Thanks for posting!  Shocking statistics! Not something you'd ever see in the MSM!

[jerryskids 5,204]

18 hours ago, The Observer said:

I'd be willing to guess that the ratio between good protesters and bad protesters is pretty damn close to the ratio between good cops and bad cops.

You'd be wrong of course.  Just search "CVS looting" on Youtube, take your pick of videos to watch. 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

3 hours ago, HTH said:

Thanks for posting!  Shocking statistics! Not something you'd ever see in the MSM!

How do you know? He did not provide a source, so we don't know where the numbers come from. What if it came from the MSM, like some hack WSJ opinion piece?

[Fireballer 2,381]

Im not a fan of all Shapiro stances, but today he hit the nail on the head about wokeness and the false narrative of police racism. "Vuaguery is the enemy of unity".  The left intends to keep their stance so vague that they have license to infinitly move the goal posts. 

https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zb3VuZGNsb3VkLmNvbS91c2Vycy9zb3VuZGNsb3VkOnVzZXJzOjE3NDc3MDM3NC9zb3VuZHMucnNz&episode=MjQ4NzAzN2EtYTc0OC0xMWVhLWFjMGMtMGYxODYxMmQ1ZGEw

[Masshole 642]

18 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

How do you know? He did not provide a source, so we don't know where the numbers come from. What if it came from the MSM, like some hack WSJ opinion piece?

Here you go:

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/flames-from-false-narratives/

And you must have missed that the author noted just before he gave all of that data that it is  "from the 2018 National Crime Victimization Survey, Census data, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, and other sources"

 

 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

31 minutes ago, Masshole said:

Here you go:

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/flames-from-false-narratives/

And you must have missed that the author noted just before he gave all of that data that it is  "from the 2018 National Crime Victimization Survey, Census data, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, and other sources"

 

 

Actually, my point was that it was in the MSM just like the OP (which was from the WSJ). There is also a false narrative that the MSM (whatever the fock that is now) doesn't report certain things.

[Utilit99 4,099]

17 hours ago, Masshole said:

 

The false narrative has devastating consequences to society.

 

Yes it does.

[Brad GLuckman 518]

In an effort to show both sides of this, im looking for some data that points to systemic police racism. This place can be a bit of an echo chamber on some of these issues. The main point of the article below seemed to be that the data on this topic is unreliable. They point to the fact that police self-report non-fatal use of force incidents so there is likely a gap in the data. As this is not the case with fatal shootings, I would say it is fair to say that data is more reliable. ABC also offers this paragraph below. This paragraph omits some of the details present in the OP and I would assume that it was intentional in order to mislead the reader. 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/latest-research-tells-us-racial-bias-policing/story?id=70994421

Quote

In March, Dr. Matthew Miller, a veteran gun violence researcher and professor of health sciences and epidemiology at Northeastern University, co-authored a study on civilians who were shot and killed by police officers between 2014 and 2015.

Roughly 1,000 people are shot to death by police officers every year, and after analyzing those deaths, Miller and his co-authors found that black Americans were twice as likely to be shot and killed by police officers, compared with their representation in the population.

Previous research, including the Washington Post's fatal force project, which had logged deadly police shootings since 2015, has come to similar conclusions about police officers disproportionately killing black Americans.

In the new study, black Americans were three times more likely to be shot and killed by police officers during interactions where the victim appeared to pose little or no threat to officers, the researchers found.

I found similar articles from politifact and an oft cited washington post study that seem to use two main statistics to support the argument of systemic police racism.

1. Blacks are 13% of the population

2. 25% of police shootings victims are black

Viewing these two datapoints in a vacuum, it would seem that there is a problem with systemic police racism. Adding in some additional context, as provided by the OP, I would say its just not there. This is just from a quick search and I plan to try to read up a bit more on the data but I dont really see it right now. In an effort to be fully informed I invite someone to please provide some strong data that supports the argument that police are inherently racist. 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/05/larry-elder/larry-elder-mislabels-statistics-fatal-shootings-p/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,583]

 

3) blacks commit 52% of the violent crime  that is your answer. They are involved in more opportunity to be involved with police it has nothing to do with skin color

[tanatastic 2,061]

I love that bogus notion that white police are “hunting” black men just for the color of their skin. It’s so laughable and ridiculous it makes me vomit. “Arbery was chased down and shot like a dog.” Nope he attacked armed men who were trying to detain him and got killed in self defense. “Breonna Taylor was hunted IN HER SLEEP !” Nope, cops busted in her house and her boyfriend opened fire on them and she got killed in the crossfire. Bogus break in maybe but fact remains, it wasn’t a “hunt”.  Want to bet a million bucks she wasn’t asleep when she got shot? 

[Utilit99 4,099]

18 hours ago, Brad GLuckman said:

In an effort to show both sides of this, im looking for some data that points to systemic police racism. This place can be a bit of an echo chamber on some of these issues. The main point of the article below seemed to be that the data on this topic is unreliable. They point to the fact that police self-report non-fatal use of force incidents so there is likely a gap in the data. As this is not the case with fatal shootings, I would say it is fair to say that data is more reliable. ABC also offers this paragraph below. This paragraph omits some of the details present in the OP and I would assume that it was intentional in order to mislead the reader. 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/latest-research-tells-us-racial-bias-policing/story?id=70994421

I found similar articles from politifact and an oft cited washington post study that seem to use two main statistics to support the argument of systemic police racism.

1. Blacks are 13% of the population

2. 25% of police shootings victims are black

Viewing these two datapoints in a vacuum, it would seem that there is a problem with systemic police racism. Adding in some additional context, as provided by the OP, I would say its just not there. This is just from a quick search and I plan to try to read up a bit more on the data but I dont really see it right now. In an effort to be fully informed I invite someone to please provide some strong data that supports the argument that police are inherently racist. 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/05/larry-elder/larry-elder-mislabels-statistics-fatal-shootings-p/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

There isn't any. The left tries to prove systemic police racism by creating violence and hoping they catch a cop who is defending their city from criminals in an act that they don't like. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,583]

On 6/4/2020 at 2:29 PM, Utilit99 said:

It's a very exposing article. I wonder if all these "protesters" were to be forced to read this if they would just deny it with nothing to back it up or if they would actually pause and think about it. Newbie is kind of giving us a glimpse at the answer to that though. Unfortunately it's the former. 

What is wrong with liberals? It truly must be a mental disorder, just like the book title says: Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder

I'm going to have to read that some day.

they do deny it nonstop

 

[Brad GLuckman 518]

5 hours ago, Utilit99 said:

There isn't any. The left tries to prove systemic police racism by creating violence and hoping they catch a cop who is defending their city from criminals in an act that they don't like. 

Racism in the criminal justice system is there, but police shootings are not the best suppporting evidence of it.