Leonard Fournette vs the World

[nobody 2,037]

Leonard Fournette and his ability to play runningback in the NFL is very controversial.

Is he better than Ronald Jones?

Should we have ever thought Fournette was a good runningback?

If someone drafted Ronald Jones this year should they be worried?

Will he ever overtake Ronald Jones as the lead back in Tampa Bay?

These questions and more need to be adjudicated and answered.  And I for one intend to get to the bottom of it right here.

 

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Fournette > Jones

[jrokh 568]

As far as this forearm is concerned it is @Axe Elf vs the world, and I own Ronald Jones...

[AxeElf 787]

41 minutes ago, jrokh said:

As far as this forearm is concerned it is @Axe Elf vs the world...

Isn't it always?

That's what sets Axe Elf apart in the end.

[Ray_T 589]

first he has to overcome his first angry ex.   That would be Jaxonville.  then we can worry about his second angry ex.

[nobody 2,037]

On pure talent, Fournette is better than RoJo, but as a professional football player, he might not have the mental makeup.  Bad news for RoJo owners is that guys that are talented but undisciplined will get their shìt together for a few months once they feel like they're being disrespected or if they feel like people aren't giving them enough credit.  That'll probably be what happens his first year here.  He'll be motivated to perform.  Then go back to halfassing it next year.  Rojo is a mediocre back.

[AxeElf 787]

1 minute ago, nobody said:

Rojo is a mediocre back.

I think everyone agrees on that.

[nobody 2,037]

One positive for Ronald Jones owners are coaches are too stubborn to make a change unless someone gets injured.

[Ray_T 589]

27 minutes ago, nobody said:

On pure talent, Fournette is better than RoJo, but as a professional football player, he might not have the mental makeup.  Bad news for RoJo owners is that guys that are talented but undisciplined will get their shìt together for a few months once they feel like they're being disrespected or if they feel like people aren't giving them enough credit.  That'll probably be what happens his first year here.  He'll be motivated to perform.  Then go back to halfassing it next year.  Rojo is a mediocre back.

I agree. he is mediocre. 

but, Mediocre players can do well if the team around them plays well.   So far, this has not happened.

I did think he would do better than hes done so far.

Granted, Brady and Co are in and learning a new offense.  no training camp to get synced up.   I figured they might start slow.

problem with RoJo is that if the coach feels a change is warranted, he has someone in the wings who can take his job.   He needs to get on the same page as Brady quickly if he wants a reasonable hope of remaining the starter.  

[jrokh 568]

2 hours ago, AxeElf said:

Isn't it always?

That's what sets Axe Elf apart in the end.

You are misrepresenting being different with being wrong. In this case the forearm is Columbus and  you are everyone else who believed the world was flat...

[jrbdmb 28]

Is Fournette the guy? I’m not sure yet. But I am sure that RoJo is not the guy. Barring injury I don’t see how RoJo can be in lineups except in the deepest of leagues.

[skinsrule05 30]

2 hours ago, jrbdmb said:

Is Fournette the guy? I’m not sure yet. But I am sure that RoJo is not the guy. Barring injury I don’t see how RoJo can be in lineups except in the deepest of leagues.

It doesn’t seem like fournette is the guy. 

[AxeElf 787]

Jones 13 carries for 53 yards (4.1 ypc) and 2 catches for 20 yards; 9.3 fantasy points.

Fournette 7 carries for 15 yards (2.1 ypc) and 2 catches for 7 yards; 4.2 fantasy points.

I guess Arians was right about his own team after all; imagine that.

[AxeElf 787]

3 hours ago, jrokh said:

You are misrepresenting being different with being wrong. In this case the forearm is Columbus and  you are everyone else who believed the world was flat...

In this case Columbus sailed off the edge of the world.

When Axe Elf is different, Axe Elf is right.

[jrokh 568]

Just now, AxeElf said:

In this case everyone else sailed off the edge of the world.

When Axe Elf is different, Axe Elf is right.

Ronald Jones didn’t do a whole lot.  Fournette’s still has more fantasy points in the last 2 games. How did Ronald Jones and Jeff Driskell work out for you this week?

[TheUsualSuspect 207]

8 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

Jones 13 carries for 53 yards (4.1 ypc) and 2 catches for 20 yards; 9.3 fantasy points.

Fournette 7 carries for 15 yards (2.1 ypc) and 2 catches for 7 yards; 4.2 fantasy points.

I guess Arians was right about his own team after all; imagine that.

Yeah I knew this was coming...

It’s not like this ridiculous sample size proves anything. 

Arians doesn’t know who his guy is, and we know how Fournette does...

he eventually breaks the big one. Jones, cannot do that, but neither can Fournette with so few volume.

Oh, let’s also not ignore that Fournette has been on this team for only three weeks.

He.. Will.. Be.. the man.

Side Note: When did “Rojo” become a thing? I no likey

[AxeElf 787]

11 minutes ago, jrokh said:

Ronald Jones didn’t do a whole lot.  Fournette’s still has more fantasy points in the last 2 games. How did Ronald Jones and Jeff Driskell work out for you this week?

No one is arguing that Ronald Jones is an elite RB.  He's what Axe Elf said he was, a low-end PPR RB2.

The only matter in contention is whether Fournette is Jones' backup or Jones is Fournette's backup, and thus far, Fournette is Jones' backup--again, as Axe Elf said.

Ronald Jones ended up being my best RB option in my 20 team league, starting him over Jordan Howard and Raheem Mostert.  Likewise, Jeff Driskel ended up being my highest-scoring QB, so again, Axe Elf makes the optimal lineup choices.  Thanks for axing.

[jrokh 568]

1 minute ago, AxeElf said:

No one is arguing that Ronald Jones is an elite RB.  He's what Axe Elf said he was, a low-end PPR RB2.

The only matter in contention is whether Fournette is Jones' backup or Jones is Fournette's backup, and thus far, Fournette is Jones' backup--again, as Axe Elf said.

Ronald Jones ended up being my best RB option in my 20 team league, starting him over Jordan Howard and Raheem Mostert.  Likewise, Jeff Driskel ended up being my highest-scoring QB, so again, Axe Elf makes the optimal lineup choices.  Thanks for axing.

So you lost is what you axually mean...

[AxeElf 787]

Just now, jrokh said:

So you lost is what you axually mean...

The opposite of that, axually, but no one needs reading comprehension these days anyway.

[TheUsualSuspect 207]

5 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

Ronald Jones ended up being my best RB option in my 20 team league, starting him over Jordan Howard and Raheem Mostert.  Likewise, Jeff Driskel ended up being my highest-scoring QB, so again, Axe Elf makes the optimal lineup choices.  Thanks for axing.

Playing Jones over Mostert in Week 3, really does solidify your legacy.

edit: and if you backtrack and say Week 2, that doesn’t work either 

[unclemercy 51]

if im invested in this backfield (i am on both sides) im not concerned with who the starter is. im concerned with who gets more points. am betting fournette will. am also betting its not going to ever get very easy to start either one.

[AxeElf 787]

17 hours ago, TheUsualSuspect said:

Playing Jones over Mostert in Week 3, really does solidify your legacy.

edit: and if you backtrack and say Week 2, that doesn’t work either 

Why would I say Week 2?  We were talking about Week 3.  I played Jones WITH Mostert in Week 2.

I appreesh the respect, but Axe Elf has many much more breathtaking accomplishments than starting an active RB over an inactive one.

[TBayXXXVII 2,114]

LOL, it's like people look at a box score and make a decision without knowing how the information is generated.  Watch the games people.  Fournette is clearly NOT a better RB.  It's as obvious as night and day.  The biggest problem this team has is the offensive line's lack of ability to run block.  Fournette has 123 yards on 24 carries... 71 of them came on 2 carries.  He's averaging 2.4 yards per carry outside of those 2 runs.  To note, the ONLY reason he got that volume was because Arians benched Jones when Brady made a bad handoff.  Jones' 2 longest carries are 21 and 14 yards.. 35 total.  Take those 2 away and he 107 carries on 37 rushes... 2.9 ypc.  The problem is the OLine.  Both RB's are fairly equal.  For now, Jones is your best bet because he's going to be the volume leader.  Once this offense starts clicking, I believe the blocking will get better.  When that happens, Jones will be the guy.  If you keep waiting for it to be Fournette, you're going to be waiting for a very long time.

[weepaws 2,457]

Disagree, Fournette is a volume rb, he’s the better Rbs  

i like that fact , that people remove big plays to justify their own opinions, big playes happen, are and should be counted has points in ff, you don’t remove those big playes for your leagues do you?  

Silly people   

Fournette is the better back, and he’s still ahead in ff of R Jones , opps I forgot to minus Fournette big playes   

 

Thanks. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,114]

Just now, weepaws said:

Disagree, Fournette is a volume rb, he’s the better rb.  

Their stats prove that.  

Thanks. 

This isn't Jacksonville.  His numbers in Tampa prove the opposite you think it does.

[weepaws 2,457]

1 minute ago, TBayXXXVII said:

This isn't Jacksonville.  His numbers in Tampa prove the opposite you think it does.

How many games has he played with the Bucs, and how many had R Jones. 

Best thing that happen for Jones , was preseason games were canceled.  

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,114]

Just now, weepaws said:

How many games has he played with the Bucs, and how many had R Jones. 

Best thing that happen for Jones , was preseason games were canceled.  

 

3 and 35. In their 3 common games, Jones has played better.

[weepaws 2,457]

1 minute ago, TBayXXXVII said:

3 and 35. In their 3 common games, Jones has played better.

Ff points show different, would you like for me to post them? 

[jrokh 568]

17 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

3 and 35. In their 3 common games, Jones has played better.

I literally can't give Jones away in my league, no one wants him... 

[tanatastic 2,061]

Coaches gameplan differently, ride hot hands and do multiple things in these non defined backfields that make no sense to us FF players but work for their plan that week (they hope). You guys will always just be tossing poop against the wall and patting yourselves on the back when your turd sticks that week in this offense.

[TBayXXXVII 2,114]

1 hour ago, weepaws said:

Ff points show different, would you like for me to post them? 

 

43 minutes ago, jrokh said:

I literally can't give Jones away in my league, no one wants him... 

... and do you think Bruce Arians cares about fantasy football when making his decisions on who gets the ball?

[jrokh 568]

24 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

... and do you think Bruce Arians cares about fantasy football when making his decisions on who gets the ball?

I would hope not, but this is a fantasy football site. We are debating the fantasy value of two running backs. In my league, one guy carries greater value. I'm guessing that my league is representative of the large majority of all fantasy leagues. I would love it if RJ turns out to be the better play , since I own him. But if one looks at it objectively, the answer is obvious...

[AxeElf 787]

4 minutes ago, jrokh said:

I would hope not, but this is a fantasy football site. We are debating the fantasy value of two running backs. In my league, one guy carries greater value. I'm guessing that my league is representative of the large majority of all fantasy leagues.

This is where we need to keep it in perspective.  Yes, we are here to share "inside information" that gives us an edge in our respective leagues.  But let's not get brainwashed by that same information.

It's one thing to recognize that right now, LEONARD FORKING FOURNETTE!!! probably does carry greater value to the other, more naive, members of your league.  If you can recognize that by some of the posts that you read here and take advantage of it by leveraging your Fournette into a player that holds some actual fantasy value, like Robby Anderson or something, then great--glad to have helped.

But if you're one of those who has conflated the legacy of Fournette with actual fantasy value in 2020, then I think this site is failing you.

So yes, use Fournette's currently inflated value to your advantage--but do it quickly before you're left holding a 4th-round paperweight--and whatever you do, don't put on the ring!

[jrokh 568]

3 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

This is where we need to keep it in perspective.  Yes, we are here to share "inside information" that gives us an edge in our respective leagues.  But let's not get brainwashed by that same information.

It's one thing to recognize that right now, LEONARD FORKING FOURNETTE!!! probably does carry greater value to the other, more naive, members of your league.  If you can recognize that by some of the posts that you read here and take advantage of it by leveraging your Fournette into a player that holds some actual fantasy value, like Robby Anderson or something, then great--glad to have helped.

But if you're one of those who has conflated the legacy of Fournette with actual fantasy value in 2020, then I think this site is failing you.

So yes, use Fournette's currently inflated value to your advantage--but do it quickly before you're left holding a 4th-round paperweight--and whatever you do, don't put on the ring!

I own Jones, not fournette, but I'd switch the 2 in a heartbeat if any of my league mates were as delusional as you clearly are...

[AxeElf 787]

3 minutes ago, jrokh said:

I own Jones, not fournette, but I'd switch the 2 in a heartbeat if any of my league mates were as delusional as you clearly are...

Well, thank you for identifying yourself as a member of the control group, for later reference.

[weepaws 2,457]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

 

... and do you think Bruce Arians cares about fantasy football when making his decisions on who gets the ball?

I do, that’s what this site is all about.  

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,114]

On 9/28/2020 at 9:00 PM, weepaws said:

I do, that’s what this site is all about.  

 

Arians doesn't care at all about fantasy football.  Believe me, I get that this site is about fantasy football... I argued that point last year in the thread about Godwin and Winston, but in both (all), cases, it comes down to how the NFL team uses them... not how we want them to be used.

 

Last year, the arguments were that Winston stinks (he did), and that Tampa had a lot of weapons (they did), so downgrade Evans and Godwin.  The thing was, real NFL doesn't work that way.  Tampa was still going to throw the ball 600 times.  Winston was not going to get benched.  Arians doesn't maximize his TE's.  Winston's deep ball accuracy sucked.  All of those components lead to Winston finishing as a top 3 QB, and both Evans and Godwin were top 3 WRs when they got hurt.

 

It's the same here.  YOU may think that Fournette is a better RB.  Well, he's not.  You may think that Jones is a bad RB.  He's not.  You may think that Arians is going to make Fournette the lead guy.  He won't.  Barring injuries and mental lapses (fumbles, missed blocking assignments, or bad penalties), Jones will get twice as many opportunities than Fournette.  Like I said above.  You can pretend that Fournette's "ability" will command more opportunities, but the facts are, "ball in hand", Jones and Fournette are pretty similar and both are running behind a very bad run blocking offensive line.  Jones is clearly a better pass catcher than he has been in the past, so Fournette no longer has a sizeable advantage in this category.

 

After 3 weeks, nothing has changed.  Jones will get the bulk of work, especially on 1st and 2nd downs.  He's shown to be extremely effective on short yardage plays.  On 3rd/4th and short, he has 5 rushes and 5 first downs.  Inside the 10, he has 5 attempts with 1 TD and 2 first downs.  On 1st and 10 (or less), he's averaging 4.2 yards per attempt (22).  He's averaging 3.3 ypa (8), on 2nd down and 4.4 on 3rd down.

Fournette isn't really doing any better... actually, a bit worse.  On 1st down, Fournette is averaging 4.5 ypa on 1st down.  Yeah, that's better than 4.2, but here's the thing... 45 of his 66 yards came on 1 play.  In the other 13 rush attempts, he has 21 yards.  His 2nd down's are better, 29 yards on 7 carries.  He has 1 rush attempt on 3rd down... 2 yards.

 

Yes, Fournette had good numbers in Jacksonville... where they were more dedicated to the run and had a better run blocking line.  But he isn't in Jacksonville anymore... he's in Tampa where it's the exact opposite.  This is an offense that's more dedicated to the pass and a poorer run blocking line.

[jrokh 568]

13 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

You may think that Jones is a bad RB.  He's not. 

Jones is averaging 3.8 yards a carry this season, which is worse than his career average of 3.9 yards a carry. Those are bad numbers, he is bad. If your argument is Fournette is also bad, then fine, whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that RJ is ungood...

[TBayXXXVII 2,114]

6 minutes ago, jrokh said:

Jones is averaging 3.8 yards a carry this season, which is worse than his career average of 3.9 yards a carry. Those are bad numbers, he is bad. If your argument is Fournette is also bad, then fine, whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that RJ is ungood...

Believe what you want.

[jrokh 568]

2 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Believe what you want.

I believe 3.8 yards a carry stinks. He is currently tied for 36th out of 46 qualified RB's. A 3 game sample size skews the ypc, but when combined with his career average, the picture is clear...  I find it hard to believe that one could think otherwise, but here we are...