Wentz

[LoOnAtIk 75]

8 hours ago, jrokh said:

Multiple serious injuries and a horrific O-Line might have something to do with it...

So it’s the yips?

[LoOnAtIk 75]

3 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Maybe.  Hurts is definitely more mobile, so he may be able to create more with his legs, and that's fine... but it may disguise the fact that the problems still exist.  People will see more fantasy points and just assume Hurts is better.  Hurts also has something else going in his favor... "newness".  There's no film on him yet.  He may be able to come out and excite because no one completely knows how to stop him.  It's not like we're in week 5 and there'll be a lot to go on.  There's only 4 games left and some of the teams just may not have enough to go on and it's also possible that Pederson and Co may run all kinds of different plays to keep defenses guessing.

That's all well and good in the short term, but it will eventually catch up with them.  Maybe even as soon as January.  The salary cap is going down next year and if the Eagles just cut Wentz (which I don't really see happening), that's another $59M added to their cap.  That's a $70M hit to their 2021 roster that they weren't expecting last summer when they gave Wentz that extension.

Here’s the built-in excuse already for Hurts, success. As if Wentz isn’t mobile whatsoever. He’s a hell of a lot faster than Brady or Rivers still. Is Hurts more mobile than Wentz? Absolutely. But that doesn’t excuse all of the bad decisions he’s been making up to this point. The O-line is bad but curiously Wentz is still holding onto the ball longer than any other QB. 
 

You can’t hold the ball for 8+ seconds consistently and get sacked, then to blame the OL and receivers. He needs to get rid of the ball and he simply isn’t. When he does get rid of the ball, it’s often the wrong decision. Film doesn’t lie Tbay. He’s been doing it all season long. Not just a couple games here or there. I’m talking about every single game this season you’ll find him holding onto the ball way too long.

 

His mechanics are totally flawed. Look how wide he stands in the pocket and look how big the wind up is when he throws. It’s almost a Leftwich-Bortles like wind up which takes forever to release.

 

His mobility used to always be a plus, idk way he can’t simply scramble out of the pocket the same way Hurts was doing on Sunday.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

15 hours ago, polecatt said:

Hurts is more mobile but he's not as good a passer so it's a trade off.

Maybe the teams rallies around him and they play better but I don't see it making a big difference. Philly is done. I think it's okay if they play Hurts and see what they have. Wentz is their guy for the time being though. His contract makes it nearly impossible for them to get rid of him. That's okay, because I ultimately think he's the better QB. If they can ever get things fixed, the OL, the RBs and WRs, then he's not going to be an issue. As long as the rest of the team is a mess, he'll struggle like 90% of QBs.

The race for the NFC East is between the Giants and the Football Team.

Agreed.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

13 hours ago, LoOnAtIk said:

You’re cherry picking stats. He only started 6 games and got hurt in one of them. Why would you only single out 4 of the 6 games? His performances is NFC championship and SB were both arguably better than any game Wentz had all season if you wanna pick and choose stats to fit your narrative.

 

FWIW, Nate Sudfeld replaced Foles in that game and went 19 for 23 passing. Nate. Sudfeld. 

Cherry picking?  No, you said, just a few posts ago, and I quoted it... "Also the fact that Foles came in and didn’t miss a beat is truly telling."  Me giving you Foles' numbers when he came isn't cherry picking, it's providing actual data to the time frame YOU called out.  Those were his first four games.  Meaning, once Foles got in, things weren't running just as smoothly as with Wentz, hence, proving you wrong.  Now, if you'd like to move the goal posts back a bit, that's fine.  Foles did play great in the NFC Championship game and the Super Bowl.  Props to him.  But let's not pretend it was expected.  Let's also not pretend that he picked up where he left off in 2018.  He got benched after the first 2 games because he stunk.  The only reason he got back in, was because the team rushed Wentz back (because Foles stunk), and got him hurt again.

So wait, are you telling me that against a mediocre team, a teams 3rd QB that had no game film for the opponent to review, came in and played well?  SHOCKING!!!!  Oh, are we also forgetting that that great performance by Sudfeld yielded a total of ZERO points?

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

14 hours ago, LoOnAtIk said:

Here’s the built-in excuse already for Hurts, success. As if Wentz isn’t mobile whatsoever. He’s a hell of a lot faster than Brady or Rivers still. Is Hurts more mobile than Wentz? Absolutely. But that doesn’t excuse all of the bad decisions he’s been making up to this point. The O-line is bad but curiously Wentz is still holding onto the ball longer than any other QB. 
 

You can’t hold the ball for 8+ seconds consistently and get sacked, then to blame the OL and receivers. He needs to get rid of the ball and he simply isn’t. When he does get rid of the ball, it’s often the wrong decision. Film doesn’t lie Tbay. He’s been doing it all season long. Not just a couple games here or there. I’m talking about every single game this season you’ll find him holding onto the ball way too long.

 

His mechanics are totally flawed. Look how wide he stands in the pocket and look how big the wind up is when he throws. It’s almost a Leftwich-Bortles like wind up which takes forever to release.

 

His mobility used to always be a plus, idk way he can’t simply scramble out of the pocket the same way Hurts was doing on Sunday.

"Is Hurts more mobile than Wentz? Absolutely."  - That's what I mean by my statement.  So I see we agree.

 

I don't think Hurts will have success.  As I stated, I think his fantasy numbers will be higher and it will deceive people's impression of him.  As an example, I think he's going to pull the ball down and run a lot more.  Does that mean he's actually making good decisions?  No, it doesn't.  He very well may have guys open, but he didn't see them.  You'd probably see a 5 yard scramble as a good thing... even though he had a guy wide open for 15 yards.  The thing is, you'll be looking at a box score and not the game, so you won't see that the player was wide open.

 

I'll be curious to see your excuses after Sunday when Hurts gets sacked a half dozen times on Sunday.  Will that be him making bad decisions?  Or will it be the bad OLine, the WR's not getting open... or running the right routes?

 

So you're telling me that he all of a sudden developed bad mechanics?  These JUST HAPPENED?  Are you telling me that all season long this coaching staff didn't notice this and couldn't help him?  Or, are you going to make the excuse that they tried, but Wentz didn't listen?

 

I don't know if Hurts will be a good QB or not.  What I do know, is that what ever he is, his best chance of success will be when Pederson is not his HC.  Same for Wentz.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

4 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Cherry picking?  No, you said, just a few posts ago, and I quoted it... "Also the fact that Foles came in and didn’t miss a beat is truly telling."  Me giving you Foles' numbers when he came isn't cherry picking, it's providing actual data to the time frame YOU called out.  Those were his first four games.  Meaning, once Foles got in, things weren't running just as smoothly as with Wentz, hence, proving you wrong.  Now, if you'd like to move the goal posts back a bit, that's fine.  Foles did play great in the NFC Championship game and the Super Bowl.  Props to him.  But let's not pretend it was expected.  Let's also not pretend that he picked up where he left off in 2018.  He got benched after the first 2 games because he stunk.  The only reason he got back in, was because the team rushed Wentz back (because Foles stunk), and got him hurt again.

If Foles only played in 6 games why did you only single out 4 games and say I’m moving the goal posts? Hypocritical much? Tbay we can do this all day. What if I only took his final 2 starts of that season and extrapolated them over 13 games? His numbers would destroy Wentz’s but why would I do that? Because I’m not stupid.

 

You're just in such a rush to argue with everyone that you mince my words and interpret them how you feel. “Didn’t miss a beat” doesn’t have to mean he played exactly as well as Wentz every single game, every single play FFS. Bigger picture, he played well enough to win and he won a damn SB.
 

The regression shown by both QBs is remarkable. That’s the only point I’m trying to make. 
 

Cry because I compared Foles to Wentz, boo hoo. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

1 minute ago, LoOnAtIk said:

If Foles only played in 6 games why did you only single out 4 games and say I’m moving the goal posts? Hypocritical much? Tbay we can do this all day. What if I only took his final 2 starts of that season and extrapolated them over 13 games? His numbers would destroy Wentz’s but why would I do that? Because I’m not stupid.

 

You're just in such a rush to argue with everyone that you mince my words and interpret them how you feel. “Didn’t miss a beat” doesn’t have to mean he played exactly as well as Wentz every single game, every single play FFS. Bigger picture, he played well enough to win and he won a damn SB.
 

The regression shown by both QBs is remarkable. That’s the only point I’m trying to make. 
 

Cry because I compared Foles to Wentz, boo hoo. 

I don't rush to argue with people... I simply point out when you are wrong.  In this case, you were wrong.  There's nothing to argue about.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

4 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

"Is Hurts more mobile than Wentz? Absolutely."  - That's what I mean by my statement.  So I see we agree.

 

I don't think Hurts will have success.  As I stated, I think his fantasy numbers will be higher and it will deceive people's impression of him.  As an example, I think he's going to pull the ball down and run a lot more.  Does that mean he's actually making good decisions?  No, it doesn't.  He very well may have guys open, but he didn't see them.  You'd probably see a 5 yard scramble as a good thing... even though he had a guy wide open for 15 yards.  The thing is, you'll be looking at a box score and not the game, so you won't see that the player was wide open.

Wentz has been missing these open guys, as well as not scrambling all season so where is his criticism?

 

And the excuse is simple TBay he’s a rookie making his 1st start. Wentz cannot use that excuse.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

I don't rush to argue with people... I simply point out when you are wrong.  In this case, you were wrong.  There's nothing to argue about.

Where was I wrong? You picked 4 out of his 6 games to fit your narrative as I said earlier which makes no sense. Again why does “Didn’t miss a beat” have to be interpreted in your brain as “EXACTLY THE SAME”?

[lod001 1,237]

Horrific line and Pederson is garbage. He's single handedly destroyed Wentz. Frank Reich made him, this terdlet has destroyed him.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

1 hour ago, lod001 said:

Horrific line and Pederson is garbage. He's single handedly destroyed Wentz. Frank Reich made him, this terdlet has destroyed him.

Yup the O-line is so bad but Miles Sanders averaging 5.3 ypc and Boston Scott averaging 4.8 ypc. 
 

Is anyone actually watching?

 

Wentz holds the ball literally longer than any other QB. Thats the reason he’s being sacked so much, and then dummies on here immediately scapegoating the offensive line. 
 

Take Burrow for instance. If people watched burrow, you can easily see his issues were the offensive line, and yet he was still putting up decent numbers. Bengals line has to be the worst in the NFL, much worse than Philadelphia. 

[weepaws 2,460]

Healthy play makers would help. 

He wouldn’t need to hold unto the ball so long if he had healthy talent to throw to.  

And there are times when an oline isn’t equally as good at pass protection as they are at run blocking.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

21 hours ago, LoOnAtIk said:

Where was I wrong? You picked 4 out of his 6 games to fit your narrative as I said earlier which makes no sense. Again why does “Didn’t miss a beat” have to be interpreted in your brain as “EXACTLY THE SAME”?

Define for me, "didn't miss a beat".  Oh, and I didn't just arbitrarily pick out 4 games... I took his first 4.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

16 hours ago, LoOnAtIk said:

Yup the O-line is so bad but Miles Sanders averaging 5.3 ypc and Boston Scott averaging 4.8 ypc. 
 

Is anyone actually watching?

 

Wentz holds the ball literally longer than any other QB. Thats the reason he’s being sacked so much, and then dummies on here immediately scapegoating the offensive line. 
 

Take Burrow for instance. If people watched burrow, you can easily see his issues were the offensive line, and yet he was still putting up decent numbers. Bengals line has to be the worst in the NFL, much worse than Philadelphia. 

You're watching the games?  If so, are you not actually looking at those games?  I mean, when I watch them, I see 6 and 7 in the box quite often.  Looks to me that teams aren't really trying to stop the run because of 2 things... 1) Pederson doesn't run the ball enough (the Eagles are 28th in the NFL in rush attempts per game), and 2) The WR's can't get open.  Teams rush 6/7 because that's all they need to get pressure and leave 4 and 5 to cover the WR's because they don't need to dedicate more to stopping them.  They don't get separation.

Miles Sanders has only faced 8-in the box (5th column from the right), only 4% of his rushes, which is 2nd fewest in the NFL.  For comparison, Mike Davis saw 8 in 30% of his rushes.

 

Bengals are way worse?  Are they?  According to this, the Bengals are 32nd and the Eagles are 28th.  I don't know how good this is, but this site has the Eagles OLine 30th in pass blocking and the Bengals 29th.  Other sites have rankings behind a paywall, so if someone has something different, I'd be interested in seeing it.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Define for me, "didn't miss a beat".  Oh, and I didn't just arbitrarily pick out 4 games... I took his first 4.

Out of 6. For no reason other than to argue.

Bengals line was ranked 32nd out of 32nd because they cannot be ranked any lower. Just because eagles are 4 spots up the ranking does not indicate how bad the bengals have been. 
 

Since you want to go down the path then, why are Burrows numbers better than Wentz. Let’s say for your sake the line play is similar.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2020/12/carson-wentz-philadelphia-eagles-struggles-2017-mvp-season-analysis/amp

 

Heres an interesting article that points to some statistical outliers from Wentz 2017 season.

[lod001 1,237]

54 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

You're watching the games?  If so, are you not actually looking at those games?  I mean, when I watch them, I see 6 and 7 in the box quite often.  Looks to me that teams aren't really trying to stop the run because of 2 things... 1) Pederson doesn't run the ball enough (the Eagles are 28th in the NFL in rush attempts per game), and 2) The WR's can't get open.  Teams rush 6/7 because that's all they need to get pressure and leave 4 and 5 to cover the WR's because they don't need to dedicate more to stopping them.  They don't get separation.

Miles Sanders has only faced 8-in the box (5th column from the right), only 4% of his rushes, which is 2nd fewest in the NFL.  For comparison, Mike Davis saw 8 in 30% of his rushes.

 

Bengals are way worse?  Are they?  According to this, the Bengals are 32nd and the Eagles are 28th.  I don't know how good this is, but this site has the Eagles OLine 30th in pass blocking and the Bengals 29th.  Other sites have rankings behind a paywall, so if someone has something different, I'd be interested in seeing it.

He doesn't know jack sh1t.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

38 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

Out of 6. For no reason other than to argue.

Bengals line was ranked 32nd out of 32nd because they cannot be ranked any lower. Just because eagles are 4 spots up the ranking does not indicate how bad the bengals have been. 
 

Since you want to go down the path then, why are Burrows numbers better than Wentz. Let’s say for your sake the line play is similar.

Oh, I get it.  You want to take his 2 best games (his last 2), to cover up the fact that in his first 4, he played below average.  I get it.

 

Well, as the link showed, the Eagles pass blocking line was ranked 30th, the Bengals 29th.  So, part of that 32nd line ranking was more to do with their inability to run block than pass block.

 

Why are Burrows numbers better?  For 1, they're running the ball more often, about 5 times per game more.   Another reason is that he has a true WR1 who can / and does, get open... in Tyler Boyd as well as a solid #2 WR in Tee Higgins (Wentz is playing with 3's, 4's and 5's).  Coaching would be another.  It's clear that Pederson is a bad OC.  He's better as a delegator with quality assistants.  Zac Taylor worked under Joe Philbin who was a great OC and Brian Callahan worked under some really good OC's and HC's like McDaniels, Kubiak, Gruden, Fox, and Caldwell.  It's evident that these two learned a lot more than Pederson.

Kinda odd ain't it?  Pederson left KC after the 2015 season.  Their offense ranked 21st, 25th, and 27th from 2013-2015 while he was the OC... and since 2016, they ranked 20th, 5th, 1st, 6th (respectively), and now 1st.  They got better when he left.  Oh, and it's not "all Mahomes" either.  That 20th (better than the 3 prior years), and 5th was with Alex Smith.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

50 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2020/12/carson-wentz-philadelphia-eagles-struggles-2017-mvp-season-analysis/amp

 

Heres an interesting article that points to some statistical outliers from Wentz 2017 season.

LOL, the article is full of "well, if you take away all of the things that Wentz did well...".   GTFOH with that piece of crap.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

51 minutes ago, lod001 said:

He doesn't know jack sh1t.

Certainly shaping up that way.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

29 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Oh, I get it.  You want to take his 2 best games (his last 2), to cover up the fact that in his first 4, he played below average.  I get it.

No you don’t get it. I never singled out any of his games from that season. You’re the one that is singling out games in your ever growing mission to prove me wrong.

 

All i said is Foles came in and didn’t miss a beat. He played well enough to win a SB. That can’t be disputed unless you’re Tbay. 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

31 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Certainly shaping up that way.

You’re in such a rush to butt heads and defend your take but you literally are missing the point I’ve been trying to make. 
Foles and Wentz have regressed massively since 2017. They both played well in 2017 and they’re both god awful now. 
 

The article that you probably didn’t read, shows his abnormal success on 3rd downs and red zone that season. Success on 3rd down keeps drives alive, regardless of how bad the play on 1st and 2nd down were. And success in red zone inflates TD numbers. It’s a pretty simple correlation.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

9 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

You’re in such a rush to butt heads and defend your take but you literally are missing the point I’ve been trying to make. 
Foles and Wentz have regressed massively since 2017. They both played well in 2017 and they’re both god awful now. 
 

The article that you probably didn’t read, shows his abnormal success on 3rd downs and red zone that season. Success on 3rd down keeps drives alive, regardless of how bad the play on 1st and 2nd down were. And success in red zone inflates TD numbers. It’s a pretty simple correlation.

Foles never regressed because he had nothing to regress from.  He was mediocre under Chip Kelly, mediocre under Doug Pederson, and mediocre now.  Did he have some good games here and there?  Certainly.  He's a legitimately capable NFL backup and can definitely have big games here and there.  He's not Blaine Gabbert or a garbage backup like that, but he's definitely an NFL QB.  But, let's not make him out to be someone who "regressed".  He is who he is.

Wentz hasn't really regressed until this year.  His 2018 season, in short form, was pretty much just as good as 2017.  C'mon, the defense ranked 4th in 2017 and 23rd in 2018... no kidding the team struggled.  Did the offense too?  Sure, but that's part in parcel because Foles played about 1/3 of the season.  As for Wentz, his comp% was higher as was y/a, and passer rating.  All that coming back too early from an injury and getting hurt again and playing a handful of games that he shouldn't even have been playing in.

Last year his supporting cast was below average, yet, he still completed about 64% of his passes and almost had a 4:1 TD to Int ratio.  Obviously his y/a went down... because all of his WR's were in and out of the lineup.

If you're going to talk about true regression, this year is the year.  I think it's firmly because of bad coaching.  If it's Wentz's fault, it's probably because he doesn't have confidence in his team or his coaches, to which, I don't blame him.  Simply, Wentz isn't the problem, he's a result of the problem.  The problem is the coaching and general management.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

32 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

No you don’t get it. I never singled out any of his games from that season. You’re the one that is singling out games in your ever growing mission to prove me wrong.

 

All i said is Foles came in and didn’t miss a beat. He played well enough to win a SB. That can’t be disputed unless you’re Tbay. 

No, I do get it.  You don't know what you're talking about, so you make up crap arguments.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

13 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

 

 

12 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

 

So, I went back and looked over my posts and I didn't see anything that said Wentz was perfect and never made any mistakes.  Not sure what these two tweets prove.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

2 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

 

So, I went back and looked over my posts and I didn't see anything that said Wentz was perfect and never made any mistakes.  Not sure what these two tweets prove.

You’re so dense, these links weren’t even directed at you I just added them to the thread.

 

Protection is excellent on both plays. WR creates separation on both plays. 
 

Please get your head out of your arse. 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

 

[jrokh 569]

Could the Wentz Philly experience be over?

 

 

 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

Jalen Hurts > Carson Wentz

 

 

And I don’t even think Hurts played very well as a passer. His accuracy is still suspect. He reminds me of a young Cam Newton, a tad bit smaller frame.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Wentz retires with a ring. 

[weepaws 2,460]

Great ff game  

 

[LoOnAtIk 75]

I read somewhere that the Colts would be a great landing spot for Wentz this offseason. Doesn’t make sense to me. If the colts are good why would they want to be bad?

[weepaws 2,460]

Quote

 

A reunion with F Reich. 

In 2017 when Reich was his  OC coach, Wentz had his best season.  

I think it could be a good move.  

[Phil Simms 11 127]

Survived the season with Ryan and Cousins, going to look at Hurts. Stafford seems to have injury concerns or he would be in consideration

Staff - Ten/TB

Cousins - Chi/NO

Bridge - GB/Was

Hurts - Ari/Dal

Ryan - TB/KC

Tua - NE/LV

Jones/Mayfield/Dalton/Lock/Brees