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t.j

Trade Carr or Trade Mariota?

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Pretend you have full control over Raiders personnel decisions. (And you want them to do well!)

You can either:
Trade Derek Carr for a 2nd round pick

(He's 29.8 years old, costs $22.125M against the cap next year, is under contract through 2022, would be a $2.5M dead cap hit to get rid of)

or

Trade Marcus Mariota for a 5th round pick

(He's 27.3 years old, costs $10.625M against the cap next year, is under contract through 2021, no dead cap hit to get rid of)

Which do you do?

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Mariota and continue the suck with derek carr :headbanger:

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If someone was willing to give me a 5th round pick for Mariota, I'd do it four or five times.

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I would move the Raiders back to Oakland 

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better start with firing Chucky :lol:

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You can build with Carr... if someone will give you a 5th for Mariota, take it and laugh your azz all the way to the draft podium.  They guy you get with that pick will be better and cheaper than Mariota.

No one will take the $10M cap hit for Mariota, so the likelihood is that Mariota will be a UFA come March 17th.

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2 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

You can build with Carr... if someone will give you a 5th for Mariota, take it and laugh your azz all the way to the draft podium.  They guy you get with that pick will be better and cheaper than Mariota.

No one will take the $10M cap hit for Mariota, so the likelihood is that Mariota will be a UFA come March 17th.

Agreed. Then use your first for a QB. Carr's backup, and future replacement.

 

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And then hope you made the right pick.

 

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17 minutes ago, Kopy said:

Agreed. Then use your first for a QB. Carr's backup, and future replacement.

 

If the plan is to draft a QB in round 1 (a risky plan picking as late as #17), then why choose the more expensive/insecure Carr to be the bridge QB?

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4 minutes ago, t.j said:

If the plan is to draft a QB in round 1 (a risky plan picking as late as #17), then why choose the more expensive/insecure Carr to be the bridge QB?

I didn't say it was a good plan

:P

H3ll, I don't even know why Gruden got 10 years and a truck full of cash in the first place? :dunno:

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26 minutes ago, Kopy said:

H3ll, I don't even know why Gruden got 10 years and a truck full of cash in the first place? :dunno:

Desperation/infatuation on the owner's part.

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13 hours ago, AxeElf said:

If someone was willing to give me a 5th round pick for Mariota, I'd do it four or five times.

3 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

You can build with Carr... if someone will give you a 5th for Mariota, take it and laugh your azz all the way to the draft podium.  They guy you get with that pick will be better and cheaper than Mariota.

No one will take the $10M cap hit for Mariota, so the likelihood is that Mariota will be a UFA come March 17th.

A 5th probably is more than Mariota's actual current market trade value, I suspect you guys are right about that.

Me, I would trade Carr for a 2nd in a heartbeat. I don't think you can build with Carr, unless what you're trying to build is a mediocre team with a chance to make the playoffs as the ceiling. Twice they have put a great offensive supporting cast around him and it's gotten the Raiders nothing more than a roughly 7th-best offense in the league (2016, when they were 7th in scoring and 6th in rushing). They've invested heavily in putting an offense around him to the detriment of the defense, but he can't get the most out of it. He's a loser. All the great QBs in this league have special traits, he has none. If the Raiders keep him for another 7 years it's going to be like the Chargers' last 7 years with Rivers. I'd rather try a high-risk/high-reward prove-it year with Mariota than finish the season with roughly 0 net points every year for the forseeable future with Carr.

12 hours ago, cmh6476 said:

better start with firing Chucky :lol:

Gruden's personnel decisions are a separate, major problem. The point of this exercise was to hypothetically take an important personnel decision out of his hands. But in reality, it's moot, they won't compete for a title regardless of what they do at QB, because every player they draft in the 1st round is a bad choice, and many of his decisions on vets are disasters as well.

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If you can’t build with Carr , why would another team give you a second round pick for him? 

 

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10 minutes ago, weepaws said:

If you can’t build with Carr , why would another team give you a second round pick for him? 

People seem to be split roughly 50/50 as to whether you can build with Carr. Personally I'm on the can't side. The Raiders unfortunately most likely believe that they can. I suspect that a team would be willing to offer a 2nd, but I don't think they would trade him for less than a mid-1st.

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I don’t think either Carr or Mariota is going to take the Raiders anywhere.  

I don’t see any team giving up a second round pick for Carr.  

 

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9 minutes ago, weepaws said:

I don’t think either Carr or Mariota is going to take the Raiders anywhere.  

I don’t see any team giving up a second round pick for Carr.  

 

According to PFF (scroll to the bottom), Carr's trade value is a 1st, 3rd, and future 2nd.

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44 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

According to PFF (scroll to the bottom), Carr's trade value is a 1st, 3rd, and future 2nd.

I think that’s great, I’m not giving up that for him, since where pretending to play control of a nfl team. 

But if I’m the Raiders , I would trade for that value   

 

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7 minutes ago, weepaws said:

I think that’s great, I’m not giving up that for him, since where pretending to play control of a nfl team. 

I would. I think he's a QB you can build around and win with.  If I can't get that in the draft, I'd gladly pay that for a guy I don't have to wait for.  This is a move that would have to be done with a team who has a tight window.  I think PFF nailed it with the Colts.  Their time to win is between now and 2022.  Carr is a great option.

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Carr would make the Colts better for sure. I don't think there are many teams in the league you can say that about. Among them, the Colts are probably the only one who is a contender.

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1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I would. I think he's a QB you can build around and win with.  If I can't get that in the draft, I'd gladly pay that for a guy I don't have to wait for.  This is a move that would have to be done with a team who has a tight window.  I think PFF nailed it with the Colts.  Their time to win is between now and 2022.  Carr is a great option.

Ok. I agree that you think that. 

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If I was picking a new team for Carr, That team would be the Panthers.  

 

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I would trade Mariota for a 5th.

Carr is a starting level QB in the NFL. He's not elite or anything but he is somebody who you can build around. He can win you games.

He comes a little cheaper than a lot of starting QBs, so they need to put that extra money to good use.

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I think Mariota would be a better fit for the Colts.  

But if I’m the Colts , I would go after Wentz , he’s the Qb for that colts team. 

 

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5 minutes ago, polecatt said:

I would trade Mariota for a 5th.

Carr is a starting level QB in the NFL. He's not elite or anything but he is somebody who you can build around. He can win you games.

He comes a little cheaper than a lot of starting QBs, so they need to put that extra money to good use.

So Carr is getting ready to be your starting Qb for the eighth season, you keeping him then? 

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9 minutes ago, weepaws said:

So Carr is getting ready to be your starting Qb for the eighth season, you keeping him then? 

Yeah, I would.

I would look a bit for a replacement perhaps, if something good falls into your lap, take it

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54 minutes ago, polecatt said:

Yeah, I would.

I would look a bit for a replacement perhaps, if something good falls into your lap, take it

Mmm I’m not so sure I would, I want to win, and not so sure if I can do that with Carr. 

He’s been , mmm a nice Qb, but I would want more, give me a first round pick for him? 

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1 hour ago, weepaws said:

Mmm I’m not so sure I would, I want to win, and not so sure if I can do that with Carr. 

He’s been , mmm a nice Qb, but I would want more, give me a first round pick for him? 

🤣

First round pick? No.

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23 minutes ago, polecatt said:

🤣

First round pick? No.

What! Come on now, he’s a starting Qb that you can build around, I heard someone say that you know. M

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14 minutes ago, weepaws said:

What! Come on now, he’s a starting Qb that you can build around, I heard someone say that you know. M

So is the QB I can draft in the first round, and he's a good bit younger with more potential, 😆

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9 minutes ago, polecatt said:

So is the QB I can draft in the first round, and he's a good bit younger with more potential, 😆

But unproven, you know what your getting with Carr. He’s been in the nfl for eight years. And yourself said you can build a team around him. 

Cant say that about a Qb just coming out of college. 

We think with the Raiders Carr is worthy of your teams first round pick, now my people will be in contact with your people. 

Lets work out this deal, what do you say?  

Ill be back later, we’re packing, moving the team back to Oakland. 

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I am betting that chucky would trade carr in a heartbeat. He brought IN Marriotta while he was stuck with Carr. 

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2 minutes ago, kilroy69 said:

I am betting that chucky would trade carr in a heartbeat. He brought IN Marriotta while he was stuck with Carr. 

As long as he waits one more year, I'm ok with that.  I'll be happy to take Carr in Tampa after Brady leaves.

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2 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

As long as he waits one more year, I'm ok with that.  I'll be happy to take Carr in Tampa after Brady leaves.

Carr is not good. He does not challenge downfield and if you can't at least attempt the deep shot to take the top off the defense they are just going to sit on the short routes and collapse the defense. Its like infielders shading in for a terrible hitter in baseball. 

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Just now, kilroy69 said:

Carr is not good. He does not challenge downfield and if you can't at least take the deep shot to take the top off the defense they are just going to sit on the short routes and collapse the defense. Its like infielders shading in for a terrible hitter in baseball. 

That's a Carr issue, not a WR issue?

I've seen a lot of deep balls this year from Carr.  This article from October, shows that in the first half dozen weeks, he was really good at throwing the deep ball.  Based on the roster, I'm thinking it's more of a WR issue.  It's clear that Carr got better when Gruden got there.  Since 2018, the best WR the Raiders had was a washed up Jordy Nelson.  Yes, he had Amari Cooper before that, but Cooper is a possession WR, he's not a downfield guy.  His ypr with Carr is better than it is with Prescott.

But, when it comes to throwing down field, who has Carr been throwing too?  No one that I see that was any good.  The article I linked seemed to suggest that having Ruggs was a big plus.  Even Agholor was putting up solid numbers and he can't catch.  If the Raiders don't want him, he's more than welcome to come to Tampa with Evans, Godwin, and Johnson.

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Carr has been overly conservative and inaccurate on deep throws dating back to college. Cooper is a deep threat/separation specialist, he is not a possession or contested catch guy. That was why Crabtree was crucial when he was there. Crabtree's catch rate went way down in Oakland because Carr threw to him if he was his first read even if he wasn't open so often.

Carr finally opened up the deep ball in week 3 this year (note: again this is year SEVEN of his NFL career) when Tyrann Mathieu literally told everyone that the Chiefs cheat up on the short stuff every time they play the Raiders and that's why the Raiders could never score 20 points at Arrowhead. Despite Mathieu's comments the Chiefs still ran the same defense and the Raiders planned for it and got a bunch of wide open deep balls in third and short, stuff like that. In 2019 it was true that the Raiders didn't have the receivers to challenge deep but when Cooper was here he was criminally underused downfield. Waller still does not get used downfield nearly enough either. Since the first KC game Carr's game has been a bit more balanced because Agholor had been killing secondaries, but he still has to have his receivers college open AND have a clean pocket to try a deep shot. And when he does he almost never has pinpoint accuracy, resulting in a lot of throws that should be TDs but are instead broke up or no YAC. Overall he is still way too much of a get-it-out-quick one-read QB who won't step into throws under pressure, doesn't have basic ball carrying skills when he runs, and lacks other skills like touch passes and good play fakes.

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Neither of these guys are Mahomes, or Rodgers, or Brady or Manning.  That's what you need to compete year in and year out.  I think we're trying to find who the young guys in the league are that fit that mold, out of guys like Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Lawrence etc will also fit that mold.  I'm glad we got our guy in KC, and hopefully the Raiders will keep trodding along with these guys with limited ceilings.

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39 minutes ago, cmh6476 said:

Neither of these guys are Mahomes, or Rodgers, or Brady or Manning.  That's what you need to compete year in and year out.  I think we're trying to find who the young guys in the league are that fit that mold, out of guys like Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Lawrence etc will also fit that mold.  I'm glad we got our guy in KC, and hopefully the Raiders will keep trodding along with these guys with limited ceilings.

You only need guys like that if you plan on paying your QB excessively.  If you have a solid QB that can utilize his weapons, appropriately, then you don't need a star.  The key is to not overpay them.  Flacco, and to a lesser extent, Eli, were capable of that.  Where the Ravens and Giants went wrong is, paying them like they were Mahomes, Rodgers, Brady, or Peyton.  When you overpay "solid" QB's, you're doing it at the detriment of the roster.  The reallocation has to come from somewhere.  It'll usually come at the cost of a more important player (or two), at other key positions.  That's why Baltimore was mediocre to below average after paying Flacco top QB money.

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1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

You only need guys like that if you plan on paying your QB excessively.  If you have a solid QB that can utilize his weapons, appropriately, then you don't need a star.  The key is to not overpay them.  Flacco, and to a lesser extent, Eli, were capable of that.  Where the Ravens and Giants went wrong is, paying them like they were Mahomes, Rodgers, Brady, or Peyton.  When you overpay "solid" QB's, you're doing it at the detriment of the roster.  The reallocation has to come from somewhere.  It'll usually come at the cost of a more important player (or two), at other key positions.  That's why Baltimore was mediocre to below average after paying Flacco top QB money.

You need that QB AND superstars at skill positions and on defense.  It's not an or proposition, but an an proposition.

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35 minutes ago, cmh6476 said:

You need that QB AND superstars at skill positions and on defense.  It's not an or proposition, but an an proposition.

"That" QB?  What "That" QB did the Ravens have in 1999?  Or, in 2011?  How about Tampa in 2002?  The Giants in 2006 or 2010?  The Eagles in 2016?  You don't "That" QB AND... you need a great defense and a solid QB that you don't pay, like he's "That" QB.

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3 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

"That" QB?  What "That" QB did the Ravens have in 1999?  Or, in 2011?  How about Tampa in 2002?  The Giants in 2006 or 2010?  The Eagles in 2016?  You don't "That" QB AND... you need a great defense and a solid QB that you don't pay, like he's "That" QB.

to get there year in and year out you do

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