No.....it's not a widespread problem 🙄

[Hardcore troubadour 12,633]

3 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Why would someone have a "protect our neighborhood schools" protest?

He’s talking about parents speaking at school board meetings. You know, those horrible involved parents that pay for it all. 

[TimHauck 1,799]

10 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

He’s talking about parents speaking at school board meetings. You know, those horrible involved parents that pay for it all. 

There it is.  I knew someone would admit it.

[TimHauck 1,799]

18 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Why would someone have a "protect our neighborhood schools" protest?

Because rich people don’t want poor people to attend their neighborhood schools

[Fireballer 2,381]

19 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Because rich people don’t want poor people to attend their neighborhood schools

 Really?   Based solely on income?

[TimHauck 1,799]

11 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

 Really?   Based solely on income?

And there's another to admit it.

[Fireballer 2,381]

31 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

And there's another to admit it.

I don't think you're normally this off kilter, so I just want to confirm where you're headed with this.  You said rich people don't want poor people coming to their schools.  Then I asked if income was the sole factor of whether or not rich people would want others coming to their school. Then, without answering the question, you accused me of admitting something I guess.  Correct?  

[Voltaire 4,558]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

Because rich people don’t want poor people to attend their neighborhood schools

I've shown you this link before. Digging it up again this time, I found a previous State of the Union speech with the same talking points.

We've been over this a half dozen times in three different threads in the last two weeks and you refuse to address the point or comment on the link. Rather than admit that you are wrong.  you run like a coward each time, don't focking acknowledge you've been proven wrong and then go on to regurgitate the same bullsh*t each time in a different thread.

You take the upscale Democrat position for upscale Democrat reasons (meaning that you don't want poor kids in your school). Republicans consistently want all children to have the ability to attend healthy schools of their choice. Republicans are the party of equal opportunity, not handouts not affirmative action. They address the issue at it's root ,which is allowing poor parents to opt out of failing schools and find better schools of their choice.

Instead of being a chickensh*t and running away again, why don't you comment on what President Trump says for once.

[Voltaire 4,558]

33 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

I don't think you're normally this off kilter, so I just want to confirm where you're headed with this.  You said rich people don't want poor people coming to their schools.  Then I asked if income was the sole factor of whether or not rich people would want others coming to their school. Then, without answering the question, you accused me of admitting something I guess.  Correct?  

He's a Robin DiAngelo racist and thinks the rest of us are. 

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

On 6/14/2022 at 9:01 AM, TimHauck said:

As I alluded to in the other thread, if school choice allows more poor kids to attend rich schools, I have a sneaky suspicion that will make the right more upset than ~0.01% of teachers talking about being gay or trans.

School choice will just lead to places trying to create super schools and test scores won't improve because the poor kids will still end up grouped together in the same schools and the wealthier kids will still end up together. Plus there will be issues when transportation and busing issues become logistical nightmares. 

I worked for a cyber charter school for 3 years. There was definitely far more indoctrination going on there as our CEO would regularly pass down lessons and pedagogy ideas that were religiously based and our curriculum and instruction director often held sessions on how to include more religious viewpoints and discussions in our lessons. So you could still teach stuff like Great Gatsby but you definitely need to talk about how sinful it was that Daisy was cheating on Tom with Gatsby. Furthermore, most charter schools are run by right wing businesspeople. It is just a way to funnel money to cronies. 

Additionally- the state I live in is trying to vote through school choice and voucher programs but they want to put the money on debit cards that families get and parents can spend it on whatever they want without even providing receipts or evidence it went to what it was supposed to. So your tax dollars could give a few thousand dollars to a family that they then splurge on a vacation or something. I'm all for reforming aspects of public education but school vouchers are not a panacea. 

[Utilit99 4,099]

1 hour ago, Sean Mooney said:

School choice will just lead to places trying to create super schools and test scores won't improve because the poor kids will still end up grouped together in the same schools and the wealthier kids will still end up together. Plus there will be issues when transportation and busing issues become logistical nightmares. 

Sucks to be the poor kids. Maybe the parents should not have had kids while they were.....wait for it.....POOR. 

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

2 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

School choice will just lead to places trying to create super schools and test scores won't improve because the poor kids will still end up grouped together in the same schools and the wealthier kids will still end up together. Plus there will be issues when transportation and busing issues become logistical nightmares. 

I worked for a cyber charter school for 3 years. There was definitely far more indoctrination going on there as our CEO would regularly pass down lessons and pedagogy ideas that were religiously based and our curriculum and instruction director often held sessions on how to include more religious viewpoints and discussions in our lessons. So you could still teach stuff like Great Gatsby but you definitely need to talk about how sinful it was that Daisy was cheating on Tom with Gatsby. Furthermore, most charter schools are run by right wing businesspeople. It is just a way to funnel money to cronies. 

Additionally- the state I live in is trying to vote through school choice and voucher programs but they want to put the money on debit cards that families get and parents can spend it on whatever they want without even providing receipts or evidence it went to what it was supposed to. So your tax dollars could give a few thousand dollars to a family that they then splurge on a vacation or something. I'm all for reforming aspects of public education but school vouchers are not a panacea. 

So you're saying schools run by liberals doing liberal things is fine, but schools run by conservatives doing conservative things isn't?  I always thought I heard liberals complain that if people didn't like the way schools were run, to open their own school?  Now they're doing it... and this is a problem?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,633]

2 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

School choice will just lead to places trying to create super schools and test scores won't improve because the poor kids will still end up grouped together in the same schools and the wealthier kids will still end up together. Plus there will be issues when transportation and busing issues become logistical nightmares. 

I worked for a cyber charter school for 3 years. There was definitely far more indoctrination going on there as our CEO would regularly pass down lessons and pedagogy ideas that were religiously based and our curriculum and instruction director often held sessions on how to include more religious viewpoints and discussions in our lessons. So you could still teach stuff like Great Gatsby but you definitely need to talk about how sinful it was that Daisy was cheating on Tom with Gatsby. Furthermore, most charter schools are run by right wing businesspeople. It is just a way to funnel money to cronies. 

Additionally- the state I live in is trying to vote through school choice and voucher programs but they want to put the money on debit cards that families get and parents can spend it on whatever they want without even providing receipts or evidence it went to what it was supposed to. So your tax dollars could give a few thousand dollars to a family that they then splurge on a vacation or something. I'm all for reforming aspects of public education but school vouchers are not a panacea. 

Did the parents that elected to send their kids to that school know it was religious? Or did they just go rogue? 

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

35 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

So you're saying schools run by liberals doing liberal things is fine, but schools run by conservatives doing conservative things isn't?  I always thought I heard liberals complain that if people didn't like the way schools were run, to open their own school?  Now they're doing it... and this is a problem?

Schools run as a business to make money foremost are bad. If indoctrination is happening it should be dealt with- regardless of what side does it. I'm telling you the only place I saw it up front and widespread was at the cyber school I worked at which was politically conservative.

And you are seemingly saying- I don't care how my tax money is spent as long as it is on right leaning school curriculum

[Hardcore troubadour 12,633]

1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Did the parents that elected to send their kids to that school know it was religious? Or did they just go rogue? 

Well? We’re waiting, Sean 

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Well? We’re waiting, Sean 

I would say maybe 20% of the parents knew the score.

 

And either way- it was full of indoctrination- you're okay with that too I suppose?

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

4 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

I would say maybe 20% of the parents knew the score.

 

And either way- it was full of indoctrination- you're okay with that too I suppose?

Well? We're waiting, HT?

[Cdub100 3,380]

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/06/michigan-attorney-general-calls-drag-queen-every-school-says-make-everything-better/

[Hardcore troubadour 12,633]

5 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

I would say maybe 20% of the parents knew the score.

 

And either way- it was full of indoctrination- you're okay with that too I suppose?

If it’s a charter school it’s your duty to know as a parent. One of the best things about sending my kids to private school is I now have the power of being a consumer. If I don’t like what’s happening I can pull them. So can any parent that sent their kids to that school. That’s the beauty of it. And if the parents don’t know that’s on them. So as long as the agenda isn’t hidden I have no problem with it. Leave if you don’t like it. 

[Voltaire 4,558]

7 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

So you're saying schools run by liberals doing liberal things is fine, but schools run by conservatives doing conservative things isn't?  I always thought I heard liberals complain that if people didn't like the way schools were run, to open their own school?  Now they're doing it... and this is a problem?

No that's tech company. Liberals oppose anyone opening their own schools.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

15 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

Schools run as a business to make money foremost are bad. If indoctrination is happening it should be dealt with- regardless of what side does it. I'm telling you the only place I saw it up front and widespread was at the cyber school I worked at which was politically conservative.

And you are seemingly saying- I don't care how my tax money is spent as long as it is on right leaning school curriculum

"Schools run as a business to make money foremost are bad."  Does this include colleges and universities?

"If indoctrination is happening it should be dealt with- regardless of what side does it."  --  Agreed

"I'm telling you the only place I saw it up front and widespread was at the cyber school I worked at which was politically conservative."  So when people tell you that they see the same thing in regards to public schools being politically liberal... they're all lying, but you're not, is that right?

"And you are seemingly saying- I don't care how my tax money is spent as long as it is on right leaning school curriculum".  No, I agree with your second point.  I'm just pointing out that we see the liberal ideology in public schools.  When conservatives point that out, there's a lot of national liberal response saying that if we don't like it, to start our own school.  When it happens, those people shouldn't complain.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

9 hours ago, Voltaire said:

Liberals oppose anyone opening their own schools.

Of course they do... it's because their message is being taught in the current ones.

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

1 minute ago, TBayXXXVII said:

"Schools run as a business to make money foremost are bad."  Does this include colleges and universities?

"If indoctrination is happening it should be dealt with- regardless of what side does it."  --  Agreed

"I'm telling you the only place I saw it up front and widespread was at the cyber school I worked at which was politically conservative."  So when people tell you that they see the same thing in regards to public schools being politically liberal... they're all lying, but you're not, is that right?

"And you are seemingly saying- I don't care how my tax money is spent as long as it is on right leaning school curriculum".  No, I agree with your second point.  I'm just pointing out that we see the liberal ideology in public schools.  When conservatives point that out, there's a lot of national liberal response saying that if we don't like it, to start our own school.  When it happens, those people shouldn't complain.

Colleges and universities are slightly different in that people pay their own money (theoretically) to go there. Now "for-profit" colleges and universities- shut that stuff down.

All I'm saying on the third point is this- I've worked in public schools for 11 years now. All of them public schools. 3 of those years were at a cyber charter school, 6 years in a more traditional public school setting. The only place I was ever explicitly instructed on, or strongly hinted at, what I should be teaching was in the cyber charter school which was extremely conservative. Obviously that is anecdotal and you can take it or leave it as such.

I'm just saying what some see as "indoctrination" is schools trying to present both sides. Some teachers are not good at that (or outright don't do it) and they should be addressed. But they are the exceptions in schools and not the rule. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

2 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

Colleges and universities are slightly different in that people pay their own money (theoretically) to go there. Now "for-profit" colleges and universities- shut that stuff down.

All I'm saying on the third point is this- I've worked in public schools for 11 years now. All of them public schools. 3 of those years were at a cyber charter school, 6 years in a more traditional public school setting. The only place I was ever explicitly instructed on, or strongly hinted at, what I should be teaching was in the cyber charter school which was extremely conservative. Obviously that is anecdotal and you can take it or leave it as such.

I'm just saying what some see as "indoctrination" is schools trying to present both sides. Some teachers are not good at that (or outright don't do it) and they should be addressed. But they are the exceptions in schools and not the rule. 

Agreed.  I guess we just disagree on how much of it we are seeing.

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

9 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

If it’s a charter school it’s your duty to know as a parent. One of the best things about sending my kids to private school is I now have the power of being a consumer. If I don’t like what’s happening I can pull them. So can any parent that sent their kids to that school. That’s the beauty of it. And if the parents don’t know that’s on them. So as long as the agenda isn’t hidden I have no problem with it. Leave if you don’t like it. 

Private schools and charter schools are not the same thing necessarily.

9 hours ago, Voltaire said:

No that's tech company. Liberals oppose anyone opening their own schools.

If people want to open a school- open a school. But make sure it is accountable and well run and for the students. Let me tell you about the cyber school I worked for. It was a public cyber charter school which means any student was able to go there. The school got money by the students they were able to get to come there. So if a student would normally go to Public School A and they spend 14,000 per student on education but then that student decides to go to Charter School A- that 14,000 comes into PSA and then is given to CSA in order to account for that student (give or take- there are some minor alterations in numbers across the board). If that student is special education it is 14,000 plus more money on top of it. So what happens is a lot of charter schools try to take on special education students because it means more money. That also means their test scores are lower so they become a Title 1 school which means they get more money from the government that has to be spent specifically on programs to theoretically improve their test scores.

So what happens to all that money? Well for the charter school I worked for there was a lot of money spent on marketing, and recruitment (for the three years I worked there they were a fireworks and community sponsor for a local minor league baseball team). They would send teachers across the state to do Keystone testing renting cars, hotel rooms for a week, and providing meals and stipends. It was a business that happened to be a school and it was super super wasteful moneywise. Did it serve some kids well? Of course it did because that's what schools do always. But it was making a lot of local conservative businesspeople a lot of money. The CEO was a theology Doctorate major pulling in 190,000K a year and had an administrative assistant making 95,000K a year. 

[Voltaire 4,558]

36 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

Private schools and charter schools are not the same thing necessarily.

If people want to open a school- open a school. But make sure it is accountable and well run and for the students. Let me tell you about the cyber school I worked for. It was a public cyber charter school which means any student was able to go there. The school got money by the students they were able to get to come there. So if a student would normally go to Public School A and they spend 14,000 per student on education but then that student decides to go to Charter School A- that 14,000 comes into PSA and then is given to CSA in order to account for that student (give or take- there are some minor alterations in numbers across the board). If that student is special education it is 14,000 plus more money on top of it. So what happens is a lot of charter schools try to take on special education students because it means more money. That also means their test scores are lower so they become a Title 1 school which means they get more money from the government that has to be spent specifically on programs to theoretically improve their test scores.

So what happens to all that money? Well for the charter school I worked for there was a lot of money spent on marketing, and recruitment (for the three years I worked there they were a fireworks and community sponsor for a local minor league baseball team). They would send teachers across the state to do Keystone testing renting cars, hotel rooms for a week, and providing meals and stipends. It was a business that happened to be a school and it was super super wasteful moneywise. Did it serve some kids well? Of course it did because that's what schools do always. But it was making a lot of local conservative businesspeople a lot of money. The CEO was a theology Doctorate major pulling in 190,000K a year and had an administrative assistant making 95,000K a year. 

An online school has lower overhead expenses but it looks like this one is making the same money as a brick and mortar school as it is also a public charter school. I imagine that making the same tuition but having far less overhead allows for some of the largesse you mention.

I'm mostly familiar I suppose. As you know, I live outside the country. My son goes to an online school based out of Kansas City. It's private rather than a public charter school, but I'm sure there are similarities. This school also has some sort of agreement with various public schools throughout the country as well, in all fifty states. My son has a 70% scholarship  which makes it affordable. I'm generally happy with it, the other option would be Chinese local schools where my daughters thrive but that ate him up when he attended. There's a awful lot of grade inflation at his online school but he's learning and I'm generally happy with it. 

I'd had no idea until these last couple of posts that you had experience in online teaching.

 

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

9 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Agreed.  I guess we just disagree on how much of it we are seeing.

Hey at least we are finding some common ground in spaces. I can go with that. 

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

1 hour ago, Voltaire said:

An online school has lower overhead expenses but it looks like this one is making the same money as a brick and mortar school as it is also a public charter school. I imagine that making the same tuition but having far less overhead allows for some of the largesse you mention.

I'm mostly familiar I suppose. As you know, I live outside the country. My son goes to an online school based out of Kansas City. It's private rather than a public charter school, but I'm sure there are similarities. This school also has some sort of agreement with various public schools throughout the country as well, in all fifty states. My son has a 70% scholarship  which makes it affordable. I'm generally happy with it, the other option would be Chinese local schools where my daughters thrive but that ate him up when he attended. There's a awful lot of grade inflation at his online school but he's learning and I'm generally happy with it. 

I'd had no idea until these last couple of posts that you had experience in online teaching.

 

Exactly. And as I said- it leads to wasteful spending. Because a "brick and mortar" school has more overhead factoring in the building, electricity, HVAC, daily operations, and all that. The charter school in my example is getting the same amount of money as the brick and mortar despite their cost to "educate" a student being considerably lower overall. And anytime a bill comes up that wants to look at how funds are allocated it is all "No way man. We are on the up and up." It was incredibly wasteful. 

The grade inflation is a real thing too. Lots of charter schools need to have higher graduation rates and whatnot to justify their existence. So they rubber stamp diplomas. 

[Baker Boy 1,485]

18 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

Schools run as a business to make money foremost are bad. If indoctrination is happening it should be dealt with- regardless of what side does it. I'm telling you the only place I saw it up front and widespread was at the cyber school I worked at which was politically conservative.

And you are seemingly saying- I don't care how my tax money is spent as long as it is on right leaning school curriculum

Schools run by unions are bad. Are you saying our colleges are bad?

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

1 minute ago, Baker Boy said:

Schools run by unions are bad. Are you saying our colleges are bad?

Just because teachers have a union does not mean the schools are run by unions. They have input but there is far more that goes into it. 

[Baker Boy 1,485]

3 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

Just because teachers have a union does not mean the schools are run by unions. They have input but there is far more that goes into it. 

Unions are for the teachers and not the kids. It was very obvious over the last 2 years.

Don’t be afraid to see what you see.

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

1 minute ago, Baker Boy said:

Unions are for the teachers and not the kids. It was very obvious over the last 2 years.

Don’t be afraid to see what you see.

How did you see that?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,633]

37 minutes ago, Baker Boy said:

Unions are for the teachers and not the kids. It was very obvious over the last 2 years.

Don’t be afraid to see what you see.

Everything goes there way. 

[Sean Mooney 1,184]

37 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Everything goes there way. 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[nobody 2,037]

Have to give the lefties the win here.  Instead of addressing a teacher covertly having preschoolers wear what she feels is gay pride paraphernalia, the lefties successfully steered it to a discussion on school choice.  Master class in deflection in this thread.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

19 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

Schools run as a business to make money foremost are bad. If indoctrination is happening it should be dealt with- regardless of what side does it.

Harvard, Yale, basically the entire college system is a great example of all of this.

[TimHauck 1,799]

On 6/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, Fireballer said:

I don't think you're normally this off kilter, so I just want to confirm where you're headed with this.  You said rich people don't want poor people coming to their schools.  Then I asked if income was the sole factor of whether or not rich people would want others coming to their school. Then, without answering the question, you accused me of admitting something I guess.  Correct?  

I didn't say income was the sole factor.  I said it's poor people that they don't want in their schools.  I'm not a mind reader, I don't know all the reasons why rich people don't want poor people in their schools.  It may be partly due to race, as poor people do tend to skew towards minority groups.  Your question "solely because of race?" sounded rhetorical, as if you weren't denying that rich people don't want poor kids in their public schools, but were implying it's not because they're poor.

 

 

On 6/15/2022 at 12:51 PM, Voltaire said:

I've shown you this link before. Digging it up again this time, I found a previous State of the Union speech with the same talking points.

We've been over this a half dozen times in three different threads in the last two weeks and you refuse to address the point or comment on the link. Rather than admit that you are wrong.  you run like a coward each time, don't focking acknowledge you've been proven wrong and then go on to regurgitate the same bullsh*t each time in a different thread.

You take the upscale Democrat position for upscale Democrat reasons (meaning that you don't want poor kids in your school). Republicans consistently want all children to have the ability to attend healthy schools of their choice. Republicans are the party of equal opportunity, not handouts not affirmative action. They address the issue at it's root ,which is allowing poor parents to opt out of failing schools and find better schools of their choice.

Instead of being a chickensh*t and running away again, why don't you comment on what President Trump says for once.

I said it was awesome that you didn't mind if poor kids went to rich schools.   It's also awesome that Trump does (I did vote for him after all).   But I don't think that's how the majority of people in the suburbs feel.  And even in these examples, they're talking about a few kids (and it's not even clear where these kids are going, most of what I've seen in support of school choice is to expand options for charter, private and religious schools, while my comment was more regarding traditional public schools).  When it becomes larger numbers is when I'm sure you will see pushback.  But, it's possible that never happens even if more school choice programs are added, as even if transportation and such was provided, unfortunately many poor parents probably won't put in the effort to try to get their kids into better schools.  

 

 

23 hours ago, Utilit99 said:

Sucks to be the poor kids. Maybe the parents should not have had kids while they were.....wait for it.....POOR. 

 

LOL, so you want to take it out on the kids who didn't choose to be born into poor families?  Almost seems like you're admitting to the existence of privilege here.

[Utilit99 4,099]

6 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

 

LOL, so you want to take it out on the kids who didn't choose to be born into poor families?  Almost seems like you're admitting to the existence of privilege here.

I don't get it. Around the corner from where I live people have $2-3 million homes. I can't afford that. I'm not running around screaming "PRIVILEGE". 

I had brothers who went to crappy public schools. They all succeeded.

Take care of business at home and usually life turns out fine.

[Reality 2,710]

Shonuff is back.

[Fireballer 2,381]

34 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I didn't say income was the sole factor.  I said it's poor people that they don't want in their schools.  I'm not a mind reader, I don't know all the reasons why rich people don't want poor people in their schools.  It may be partly due to race, as poor people do tend to skew towards minority groups.  Your question "solely because of race?" sounded rhetorical, as if you weren't denying that rich people don't want poor kids in their public schools, but were implying it's not because they're poor.

 

Having insufficient income is literally the definition of poor. But now your adding in other demographics. 

And I asked you "based solely on income?", and you misread it as " based solely on race?".  Maybe your subconscious is surfacing and that's the real issue and not some  bogeymen on a message board.

 

[Cdub100 3,380]

41 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I didn't say income was the sole factor.  I said it's poor people that they don't want in their schools.  I'm not a mind reader, I don't know all the reasons why rich people don't want poor people in their schools.  It may be partly due to race, as poor people do tend to skew towards minority groups.  Your question "solely because of race?" sounded rhetorical, as if you weren't denying that rich people don't want poor kids in their public schools, but were implying it's not because they're poor.

 

 

I said it was awesome that you didn't mind if poor kids went to rich schools.   It's also awesome that Trump does (I did vote for him after all).   But I don't think that's how the majority of people in the suburbs feel.  And even in these examples, they're talking about a few kids (and it's not even clear where these kids are going, most of what I've seen in support of school choice is to expand options for charter, private and religious schools, while my comment was more regarding traditional public schools).  When it becomes larger numbers is when I'm sure you will see pushback.  But, it's possible that never happens even if more school choice programs are added, as even if transportation and such was provided, unfortunately many poor parents probably won't put in the effort to try to get their kids into better schools.  

 

 

LOL, so you want to take it out on the kids who didn't choose to be born into poor families?  Almost seems like you're admitting to the existence of privilege here.

I don't want poor people at my kids school because in general poor people are dumb. They make dumb kids and cause more trouble than they are worth. They think if they send their kid to a "good" school their kid will do well. In most cases, they won't and just bring down the other kids. 

I am firmly against school of choice and other than paying for private/church school I don't know why Republicans are for it.