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OrangeSoda

Who’s wowing at your teams camp.

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Denver fan here- No big surprises, but if there is one it’s that Saubert has been getting all the looks at TE. Not Albert O or rookie Dulich? 

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The NE DEF.  Because - ya know, the Pats have no Offensive Coordinator.  😅

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Isaih Pacheco

 

 

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Skyy Moore someone to watch as well

 

 

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Wandale Robinson has been turning heads at Giants camp.

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1 hour ago, cmh6476 said:

Skyy Moore someone to watch as well

 

 

I hope the DBs learn to cover better than they covered Skyy on that pass...  There's nobody within ten yards of him.

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2 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

I hope the DBs learn to cover better than they covered Skyy on that pass...  There's nobody within ten yards of him.

he is that fast.

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Amon-Ra is absolutely killing it.  He stands heads and shoulders above all offensive weapons in camp.  Nobody can cover him or tackle him and he catches everything.  The way he ended the season was no fluke and in fact he has even elevated his skills.  He will be easily a 100-catch, 1200 yard guy despite there being additional options.  

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1 hour ago, jonmx said:

Amon-Ra is absolutely killing it.  He stands heads and shoulders above all offensive weapons in camp.  Nobody can cover him or tackle him and he catches everything.  The way he ended the season was no fluke and in fact he has even elevated his skills.  He will be easily a 100-catch, 1200 yard guy despite there being additional options.  

I've really never seen anything like it.

A rookie WR becomes the WR5 in fantasy over the second half of his rookie season, remains with the same team, remains with the same QB, the team adds other weapons to take the heat off of him--and the next season he's a sixth round pick.

It's almost like everyone is just sour-grapes shunning him because they weren't on board with Axe Elf's endorsement of St. Brown last year, and don't want to admit they were wrong.

He's currently one of the best values in the draft.

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58 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

I've really never seen anything like it.

A rookie WR becomes the WR5 in fantasy over the second half of his rookie season, remains with the same team, remains with the same QB, the team adds other weapons to take the heat off of him--and the next season he's a sixth round pick.

It's almost like everyone is just sour-grapes shunning him because they weren't on board with Axe Elf's endorsement of St. Brown last year, and don't want to admit they were wrong.

He's currently one of the best values in the draft.

I will let Mathew Berry from his '100 facts' column make the counterargument:

"

73. Last year, 66% of Amon-Ra St. Brown's total fantasy points came in Weeks 13-18.

74. Last year, T.J. Hockenson missed Weeks 14-18.

75. Last year, D'Andre Swift missed Weeks 13-16.

76. Last year, in Weeks 13-18, Amon-Ra St. Brown had a 33.5% team target share, more than Cooper Kupp last year.

77. Prior to Hockenson's injury, St. Brown's target share was 21%.

78. This year, T.J. Hockenson and D'Andre Swift are healthy and the Lions added D.J. Chark and rookie Jameson Williams to the team."

Now that being said, St. Brown as a 6th round pick sounds good to me in any type of 12 team ppr league. The delusional Lions' fan you responded to claimed:

2 hours ago, jonmx said:

He will be easily a 100-catch, 1200 yard guy despite there being additional options.  

There were only five receivers who achieved that last year (plus Mark Andrews). I would easily win a lot of money if I could bet that under for Mr. St. Brown...

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50 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

I've really never seen anything like it.

A rookie WR becomes the WR5 in fantasy over the second half of his rookie season, remains with the same team, remains with the same QB, the team adds other weapons to take the heat off of him--and the next season he's a sixth round pick.

It's almost like everyone is just sour-grapes shunning him because they weren't on board with Axe Elf's endorsement of St. Brown last year, and don't want to admit they were wrong.

He's currently one of the best values in the draft.

The last six weeks he was putting up 8-90-1 consistently on 11 targets a game.  Kupp-like numbers in both efficiency and production.  

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I’m not buying that he will duplicate those numbers this season, to many other variables.  I think 6th rounds looks right for the St Brown. 

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2 minutes ago, jrokh said:

I will let Mathew Berry from his '100 facts' column make the counterargument:

"

73. Last year, 66% of Amon-Ra St. Brown's total fantasy points came in Weeks 13-18.

74. Last year, T.J. Hockenson missed Weeks 14-18.

75. Last year, D'Andre Swift missed Weeks 13-16.

76. Last year, in Weeks 13-18, Amon-Ra St. Brown had a 33.5% team target share, more than Cooper Kupp last year.

77. Prior to Hockenson's injury, St. Brown's target share was 21%.

78. This year, T.J. Hockenson and D'Andre Swift are healthy and the Lions added D.J. Chark and rookie Jameson Williams to the team."

Now that being said, St. Brown as a 6th round pick sounds good to me in any type of 12 team ppr league. The delusional Lions' fan you responded to claimed:

There were only five receivers who achieved that last year (plus Mark Andrews). I would easily win a lot of money if I could bet that under for Mr. St. Brown...

Absolutely the majority of his production came the last six weeks.  And if you projected his numbers based on that he would be 136-1,500-13 for the season.   He was a rookie and the Lions had just fired their offensive coordinator.   Josh Reynolds played and was targeted a lot during that stretch and Hockinson did play a game and Swift played a couple as well.    Jamo and Chark are deep threats and not high volume target guys. 

The biggest factors in Amon-Ra success was:

1.  Getting rid of Anthony Lynn's horrendous offense.

2.  Amon-Ra developing.

3.  Goff trusting Amon-Ra.

None of that has changed.  Amon-Ra is only getting better.  Amon-Ra targets will go down slightly, instead of 11-12 targets and 8-9 receptions, it will be 9-10 targets with 7-8 receptions.  

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Scoreboard.

"He's special, man. He really is. He he's on a mission right now," offensive coordinator Ben Johnson told reporters on Friday. "We talked in the spring a little bit about each coach giving each player areas of improvement. He is taking those to heart. And you can really see that translate on the field right now. 

"I talked to him middle of the summer during our off time, just seeing how he's doing. He's like, 'Coach, I'm telling you right now -- this run after catch, I'm all over it. I'm all over it.' And I think you see that every single day on the field."

At training camp, his route running has been staggering in it's preciseness and his ability to get open and separate from defenders has drastically improved. 

"Ball gets in his hands and he is consciously thinking to knife up the field and get what I can -- break tackles along the way," Johnson explained. "The aggression that he had, he has that controlled aggression, which for a receiver is rare. It shows up in the run game, it shows up in his route-running, his breaks, and it carries over for the rest of the group."

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33 minutes ago, jonmx said:

Absolutely the majority of his production came the last six weeks.  And if you projected his numbers based on that he would be 136-1,500-13 for the season.   He was a rookie and the Lions had just fired their offensive coordinator.   Josh Reynolds played and was targeted a lot during that stretch and Hockinson did play a game and Swift played a couple as well.    Jamo and Chark are deep threats and not high volume target guys. 

The biggest factors in Amon-Ra success was:

1.  Getting rid of Anthony Lynn's horrendous offense.

2.  Amon-Ra developing.

3.  Goff trusting Amon-Ra.

None of that has changed.  Amon-Ra is only getting better.  Amon-Ra targets will go down slightly, instead of 11-12 targets and 8-9 receptions, it will be 9-10 targets with 7-8 receptions.  

You ignored all the major reasons. Swift and the Hoch weren’t playing. Now if you are saying they will both be hurt again, then Fine. Is that what you are saying? I’ll take the under for the easily hitting 1200 yards AND 100 receptions predictions…

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34 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

Scoreboard.

 

 

Wow an OC gushed about one of his players in training camp. That never happens🙄

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I wouldn’t  classify Reynolds as a high target player.  

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1 hour ago, jrokh said:

Wow an OC gushed about one of his players in training camp. That never happens🙄

It's preseason hype, but all we have is preseason hype--and this is a thread about preseason hype--"wowing in camp."

It's better than the preseason hype about, say, Baker Mayfield.

And, of course, it is in agreement with Axe Elf, which is the single largest indicator of its validity.

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8 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

It's preseason hype, but all we have is preseason hype.

It's better than the preseason hype about, say, Baker Mayfield.

And, of course, it is in agreement with Axe Elf, which is the single largest indicator of its validity.

Just more bull in the sht.   

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1 hour ago, jrokh said:

You ignored all the major reasons. Swift and the Hoch weren’t playing. Now if you are saying they will both be hurt again, then Fine. Is that what you are saying? I’ll take the under for the easily hitting 1200 yards AND 100 receptions predictions…

I have not ignore all the major reasons. I see Amon-Ra as still the number 1 target.  Swift and Hock playing won't hurt that much.  In fact it will make the offense much more prolific so even with a smaller share of the total offense, Amon-Ra's numbers will still be big.  I see the analysis above as too shallow and the writer had no clue of what went on in Detroit last season.  

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I don’t see him the St Brown producing the same numbers as last season.  To many variables. 

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2 hours ago, jonmx said:

I have not ignore all the major reasons. I see Amon-Ra as still the number 1 target.  Swift and Hock playing won't hurt that much.  In fact it will make the offense much more prolific so even with a smaller share of the total offense, Amon-Ra's numbers will still be big.  I see the analysis above as too shallow and the writer had no clue of what went on in Detroit last season.  

So, the combined 13 targets Swift and the Hoch averaged last year won't affect St. Brown? Not to mention the addition of the guy in your own words is like Tyreek Hill only faster. Let me guess Goff is going to throw for 6000 yards. Stay away from that Michigan water bruh. Probably want to lay off the ayahuasca as well...

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50 minutes ago, jrokh said:

So, the combined 13 targets Swift and the Hoch averaged last year won't affect St. Brown?

Were no other RBs or TEs targeted during their absence?

St. Brown's targets averaged 5.2 per game before December (when Swift and Hock went down).  He averaged 11.2 targets per game thereafter (including the final two games in which Swift returned and St. Brown still had 11 and 10 targets, respectively).

Let's say he earned enough respect/favor/whatever to split the difference, and average 8.2 targets per game in 2022.

In those late-season games, St. Brown was scoring an average of 2.045 fantasy points per target, so he should score about 302 fantasy points in PPR leagues.

That would have been good for WR6 last year, just ahead of Tyreek Hill.

If he only manages to hang onto 7.2 targets per game in 2022, he'd score about 265 fantasy points, which would have been WR9 last season.

He's a steal in the 6th.

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6 hours ago, jrokh said:

73. Last year, 66% of Amon-Ra St. Brown's total fantasy points came in Weeks 13-18.

74. Last year, T.J. Hockenson missed Weeks 14-18.

75. Last year, D'Andre Swift missed Weeks 13-16.

76. Last year, in Weeks 13-18, Amon-Ra St. Brown had a 33.5% team target share, more than Cooper Kupp last year.

77. Prior to Hockenson's injury, St. Brown's target share was 21%.

78. This year, T.J. Hockenson and D'Andre Swift are healthy and the Lions added D.J. Chark and rookie Jameson Williams to the team."

all valid points.

with Hock and Swift out he was (at the time) considered to be the best of a bad lot.

a relative unknown who may or may not have been the #3 option when they throw the ball.  He got fed an awful lot of balls out of necessity.  not because he had won the job or anything of the like.  It is nice he performed, but the sample size was small and teams likely didnt gameplan for him actually having any form of skill.

That said he did perform and he deserves more targets than what he was getting prior to this period.  but has he performed enough to displace either of the options that were ahead of him pre injury?   unknown.

with the addition of Chark and Williams, thats more mouths to feed too.

so the target split will be different.  what we dont know is who fits where in the pecking order.  I wouldnt discount Chark.  he has actually had a 1000 yard season in his short career.  he has performed reasonably well while heathy .......his biggest problem has been actually staying healthy.

I'm not worried too much about Williams cutting into anyones production.  hes a rookie coming off of ACL surgery.  hes more a threat for next year than he is for this year.

I predict a solid year, and this kid deserves to be rostered.  I'm not sure about paying the price of his ADP.   as mentioned before.... too many unknowns here.   he might be good but for the risks vs the price you pay  I'd rather pay the price to get Chark.  he has in my opinion almost equal upside if he stays healthy and he can be had far later in the draft.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

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45 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

He's a steal in the 6th.

I already agreed with you on that point. I’m not arguing that at all. I am pushing back against the delusional homer who said he will easily clear 100 receptions AND 1200 yards. Do try and keep up these explanations are tiresome…

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44 minutes ago, jrokh said:

I already agreed with you on that point. I’m not arguing that at all. I am pushing back against the delusional homer who said he will easily clear 100 receptions AND 1200 yards. Do try and keep up these explanations are tiresome…

I think it's just your penchant for hyperbole that begs for rebuttal.

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43 minutes ago, jrokh said:

I already agreed with you on that point. I’m not arguing that at all. I am pushing back against the delusional homer who said he will easily clear 100 receptions AND 1200 yards. Do try and keep up these explanations are tiresome…

 

Even if Amon-Ra's targets decreased by 25% from those last 6 games, he still would still project out to catch 100 balls.  

What you fail to understand is the reason why Anthony Lynn was demoted/fired after 10 games last season was because his offensive scheme revolved around dumping the ball to the TE and RBs.  

Once Ben Johnson started drawing up the offense, the WR became a larger part of the offense.  Ben Johnson just spent 5 minutes of his press conference today gushing all over how Amon-Ra performed last year and how hard he worked on the off-season.  Amon-Ra will not be getting 12 targets a game, but I fully expect about 9 targets.  

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47 minutes ago, jonmx said:

What you fail to understand is the reason why Anthony Lynn was demoted/fired after 10 games last season was because his offensive scheme revolved around dumping the ball to the TE and RBs.  

going into the start of the season the team was starting WR nobody had heard of.

you cant blame the guy for that.    it looked like the TE and RB were the best pass catchers on the roster.   To me, that was not the coaches fault, that was the fault of the GM.

what amazes me is that Goff was able to do what he did considering how little talent he had  to work with for much of the year.   he also established a connection with someone (Amon Ra) who nobody was really expecting anything from and helped develop him into a player.   This is the sort of thing you expect from Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady.  Not second or third tier QB's.   This makes me feel that Goff is better than advertised.

Granted the play calling wasnt all that great either but the GM truly needed to take more responsibility than he did on this.

This year I think there is a lot better pro ready talent than there was this time last year, so I do think Detroit is pointing in the right direction.   What I dont know is how quickly they will turn it around.   if the Defense still isnt getting it done, an improved offense wont help the bottom line all that much.

Either way, given the number of potential targets, its not as easy as assuming Amon Ra St Brown is gonna light it up.   He might.   but teams will also be gameplanning for him too, so he may not have it nearly as easy as he did when he burst on the scene late last year.

lots of times a player comes on the scene lights it up for 4 or 5 games, then defenses start to gameplan for the guy and the stats drop back down somewhat.  we never got to see that part to determine if this part of the pattern holds or not.  I suspect hes most likely a true #2 WR for this season but he also still has some unrealized upside so he could be a #1. I'm just not betting on that yet.

but I will be watching the Detroit offense with some interest this year.  I do think they will surprise a few people.

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2 hours ago, Ray_T said:

going into the start of the season the team was starting WR nobody had heard of.

you cant blame the guy for that.    it looked like the TE and RB were the best pass catchers on the roster.   To me, that was not the coaches fault, that was the fault of the GM.

what amazes me is that Goff was able to do what he did considering how little talent he had  to work with for much of the year.   he also established a connection with someone (Amon Ra) who nobody was really expecting anything from and helped develop him into a player.   This is the sort of thing you expect from Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady.  Not second or third tier QB's.   This makes me feel that Goff is better than advertised.

Granted the play calling wasnt all that great either but the GM truly needed to take more responsibility than he did on this.

This year I think there is a lot better pro ready talent than there was this time last year, so I do think Detroit is pointing in the right direction.   What I dont know is how quickly they will turn it around.   if the Defense still isnt getting it done, an improved offense wont help the bottom line all that much.

Either way, given the number of potential targets, its not as easy as assuming Amon Ra St Brown is gonna light it up.   He might.   but teams will also be gameplanning for him too, so he may not have it nearly as easy as he did when he burst on the scene late last year.

lots of times a player comes on the scene lights it up for 4 or 5 games, then defenses start to gameplan for the guy and the stats drop back down somewhat.  we never got to see that part to determine if this part of the pattern holds or not.  I suspect hes most likely a true #2 WR for this season but he also still has some unrealized upside so he could be a #1. I'm just not betting on that yet.

but I will be watching the Detroit offense with some interest this year.  I do think they will surprise a few people.

I agree with the start of the season the Lions WR core was the absolute worst.  But the problem with accrediting Goff with Amon-Ra's development and performance is Amon-Ra had Stat lines of 8-90-1 and 9-111-1 with Tim f-ing Boyle throwing the ball.  Amon-Ra is a special WR.  

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1 hour ago, jonmx said:

I agree with the start of the season the Lions WR core was the absolute worst.  But the problem with accrediting Goff with Amon-Ra's development and performance is Amon-Ra had Stat lines of 8-90-1 and 9-111-1 with Tim f-ing Boyle throwing the ball.  Amon-Ra is a special WR.  

Question for you, it’s not a judgement, I’m just wondering, half ppr 12 teams , what round would you draft the St Brown.  

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4 hours ago, weepaws said:

Question for you, it’s not a judgement, I’m just wondering, half ppr 12 teams , what round would you draft the St Brown.  

He should be a late 3rd round value.  But given his adp in the mid-6th round, I would target him in the 5th as a steal. 

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Like what I'm hearing about Packers WRRomeo Doubs. He's getting reps.especially with Watson u available. Don't think he'd.have too much trouble jumping past Sammy Watkins but Cobb is a Rodgers favorite. He'll be hard pressed to earn a starting job in TC but if he produces.when he gets opportunities his playing time will increase. Not looking at him.in redrafts but certainly a player I'd like to add to my roster in dynasty leagues.

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4 hours ago, jonmx said:

He should be a late 3rd round value

 

10 hours ago, jonmx said:

Amon-Ra is a special WR.  

 

On 8/5/2022 at 11:23 AM, jonmx said:

He will be easily a 100-catch, 1200 yard guy despite there being additional options.

So then why would you value a 'special WR' who will easily reach 100 receptions AND 1200 yards as late 3rd round? Are you referencing Non-PPR leagues only? For example, in my 12-team half ppr league in 2021 the 5 wr who finished with the easily obtainable 100 rec+1.200 yards (Kupp, Adams, Jefferson, Tyreek, and Diggs) all finished as top 7 receivers. Only Deebo and Jamarr Chase finished in the top 7 without hitting those numbers. Of the 5 who hit those numbers only Cooper Kupp wasn't a 1st or 2nd round valuation. So again, why are you valuing a 'special' WR who will easily clear 100 receptions and 1200 yards as late 3rd round? I guess you don't even believe your own BS...

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17 hours ago, weepaws said:

Question for you, it’s not a judgement, I’m just wondering, half ppr 12 teams , what round would you draft the St Brown.  

 

13 hours ago, jonmx said:

He should be a late 3rd round value.  But given his adp in the mid-6th round, I would target him in the 5th as a steal. 

Thanks for the reply, I’m not sure I can agree, I think a third round pick is just to high, I think his current sixth round is perfect , a steal for me would be like a 7-8th round pick.  I do appreciate the chat.  

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8 hours ago, jrokh said:

 

 

So then why would you value a 'special WR' who will easily reach 100 receptions AND 1200 yards as late 3rd round? Are you referencing Non-PPR leagues only? For example, in my 12-team half ppr league in 2021 the 5 wr who finished with the easily obtainable 100 rec+1.200 yards (Kupp, Adams, Jefferson, Tyreek, and Diggs) all finished as top 7 receivers. Only Deebo and Jamarr Chase finished in the top 7 without hitting those numbers. Of the 5 who hit those numbers only Cooper Kupp wasn't a 1st or 2nd round valuation. So again, why are you valuing a 'special' WR who will easily clear 100 receptions and 1200 yards as late 3rd round? I guess you don't even believe your own BS...

Because his upside is limited.  He is more of an Edelman type with high number receptions, limited yards and limited TDs.  He is not going to get 1,400 yards and 14 TDs.  Eventhough he has a good chance to put up top 10 fantasy numbers, nobody is going to value him that high.

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3 minutes ago, jonmx said:

Because his upside is limited.  He is more of an Edelman type with high number receptions, limited yards and limited TDs.  He is not going to get 1,400 yards and 14 TDs.  Eventhough he has a good chance to put up top 10 fantasy numbers, nobody is going to value him that high.

Including you apparently. So much for ‘special’, or easily clearing 1200 yards and 100 receptions. Are all Lions fans this delusional or are you just SPECIAL…

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This week for the first time. Lock and Smith split the first team reps 50/50. Then at Saturday's scrimmage, Lock had a much better outing than Smith.

I'd assume it's gonna stay 50/50 for a bit. And Smith will start the first preseason game. But depending how they perform in that game. Seattle could start leaning towards someone after that.

Smith has been with the team for 3 year's, and has 1 year already in Waldrens system. But Lock is showing he's at least studying the playbook.

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I'm pretty sure Lock will win the starting job.   I have always thought that the starting competitions are often a sham.   the coach knows who they want to win the competition.    and oftentimes the decision is made before the camp battle begins.

That said, if Lock cant win the job he doesnt deserve it.   Geno isnt that good.

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Says a lot about the lack of ability from Lock, that he hasn’t won the job from G Smith who’s not a starting Qb.  It’s going to be a long season for the Hawks.  

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