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The Real timschochet

DeSantis’ Florida continues to persecute academic freedom

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17 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Sure. If you’re a Communist. Americans are usually not though. 

CRT was created by 70s Marxists.

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40 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/19/politics/ron-desantis-ap-african-american-studies/index.html
 

The DeSantis administration has taken a decidedly Stalinist approach to education: we will teach what we want you to learn, all else is verboten! 

It's much better than the liberals teaching CRT and starting the transitioning of people's 10 year old kids in private to becoming another sex like the liberals are doing now.

Good for the DeSantis administration. Finally someone with some balls to stand up against the raging authoritarian liberal Nazis in this country. :thumbsup:

DeSantis 2024!! :overhead:

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As usual, I'm sure you haven't actually researched this issue Tim.  You're just following your marching orders.  If you want to, there's a link to a summary of the content of this course here:

https://www.theflstandard.com/exclusive-rejected-african-american-studies-course-in-florida-features-crt-intersectionality-and-queer-theory/

It's a vague bunch of crap that no student should be learning.  I'm fine with it being blocked.   The people in charge of educating our children are doing them a huge disservice.  It saddens me.

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47 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

If it’s accurate what does it matter? And anyhow there’s no CRT in this course. 

History is often viewed through a prism and the best prism is one that unites us as a people and builds respect and love for the country.

Florida is making it clear that it does not want a Marxist, anti-American, white-guilting framework for viewing history. There are plenty of ugly bits in history and these toxic issues, most frequently around race, have to be brought up regardless. The situation can be handled delicately or accusatory or in a variety of other manners. History done wrong tear apart the fabric of society. There is a reason George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Theodore Roosevelt statues are getting removed/replaced. We can see the roots of it in corporate left wing media you see it when CNN called Mt. Rushmore a" monument to two slave owners on land wrestled away from native Americans."

They have allies in far left academia promoting the same garbage and that is rife in the various low-end "studies" majors that cropped up under the social studies umbrella in the 70s. I've no doubt that when Florida took a look at what was in this African American AP course, they said "no thank you" for a reason. Chances are a very valid one.

Edit: Strike's post directly above this one is gold on going into detail on exactly why it was removed.

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9 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

History is often viewed through a prism and the best prism is one that unites us as a people and builds respect and love for the country.

Florida is making it clear that it does not want a Marxist, anti-American, white-guilting framework for viewing history. There are plenty of ugly bits in history and these toxic issues, most frequently around race, have to be brought up regardless. The situation can be handled delicately or accusatory or in a variety of other manners. History done wrong tear apart the fabric of society. There is a reason George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Theodore Roosevelt statues are getting removed/replaced. We can see the roots of it in corporate left wing media you see it when CNN called Mt. Rushmore a" monument to two slave owners on land wrestled away from native Americans."

They have allies in far left academia promoting the same garbage and that is rife in the various low-end "studies" majors that cropped up under the social studies umbrella in the 70s. I've no doubt that when Florida took a look at what was in this African American AP course, they said "no thank you" for a reason. Chances are a very valid one.

Edit: Strike's post directly above this one is gold on going into detail on exactly why it was removed.

No The best prism is accuracy and truth. We will be united by the ideals that appeal to us all. You can’t force unity. That’s why I compared this to Stalinism. It’s an accurate comparison. The Soviet Union tried to eliminate truths that they found unpleasant. That’s what Florida is now trying to do. 

In the end, these sort of restrictions well come to be seen as backwards as the Tennessee school district that tried to ban the teaching of evolution 100 years ago. They won’t stand. 

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4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

No The best prism is accuracy and truth. We will be united by the ideals that appeal to us all. You can’t force unity. That’s why I compared this to Stalinism. It’s an accurate comparison. The Soviet Union tried to eliminate truths that they found unpleasant. That’s what Florida is now trying to do. 

In the end, these sort of restrictions well come to be seen as backwards as the Tennessee school district that tried to ban the teaching of evolution 100 years ago. They won’t stand. 

Florida is teaching accuracy and truth, whereas Stalinism is what these academic lightweight avowed communist CRT advocates are peddling.

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2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

No The best prism is accuracy and truth. We will be united by the ideals that appeal to us all. You can’t force unity. That’s why I compared this to Stalinism. It’s an accurate comparison. The Soviet Union tried to eliminate truths that they found unpleasant. That’s what Florida is now trying to do. 

In the end, these sort of restrictions well come to be seen as backwards as the Tennessee school district that tried to ban the teaching of evolution 100 years ago. They won’t stand. 

Is what they propose to teach accurate?

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40 minutes ago, Strike said:

As usual, I'm sure you haven't actually researched this issue Tim.  You're just following your marching orders.  If you want to, there's a link to a summary of the content of this course here:

https://www.theflstandard.com/exclusive-rejected-african-american-studies-course-in-florida-features-crt-intersectionality-and-queer-theory/

It's a vague bunch of crap that no student should be learning.  I'm fine with it being blocked.   The people in charge of educating our children are doing them a huge disservice.  It saddens me.

CRT is an accurate accounting of history. The ONLY reason I would oppose teaching it in primary or high school is that it focuses too much attention on aspects of black history to the detriment of other topics just as vital. However in an AP dedicated to the subject of African-American history, such a restriction does not even apply. 
 

Keep in mind that this course is a voluntary one designed for honor students. To ban the subject matter based on the fear that it will be too critical of American history is outrageous. 

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2 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Florida is teaching accuracy and truth, whereas Stalinism is what these academic lightweight avowed communist CRT advocates are peddling.

No. You don’t teach accuracy and truth when you attempt to cover up what actually happened (and is in some ways still happening.) 

Racism was not an issue that we solved by freeing the slaves and the Civil Rights movement. Racism is an integral part of the history of this country, woven into our foundation and it continues today. That’s the part that the current Florida government doesn’t want to acknowledge. 

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4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

CRT is an accurate accounting of history. The ONLY reason I would oppose teaching it in primary or high school is that it focuses too much attention on aspects of black history to the detriment of other topics just as vital. However in an AP dedicated to the subject of African-American history, such a restriction does not even apply. 
 

Keep in mind that this course is a voluntary one designed for honor students. To ban the subject matter based on the fear that it will be too critical of American history is outrageous. 

This is one of the big problems I had with you at FBG, and why in most cases I will only engage with you briefly on topics.  You have a habit of forming a perception of what is going on and basing your opinion on that.  Nothing you have written above has been said by Desantis AFAIK.  He didn't mention CRT in his letter to the college board.  Nor did he say the curriculum is too critical of American history.  And again, I'm 100% positive that, even after I gave you a link, you didn't even bother to go read the summary of topics of the course.  You simply read a headline somewhere, became bothered by it, and decided to start a thread based upon an inaccurate understanding of the topic. 

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3 minutes ago, Strike said:

This is one of the big problems I had with you at FBG, and why in most cases I will only engage with you briefly on topics.  You have a habit of forming a perception of what is going on and basing your opinion on that.  Nothing you have written above has been said by Desantis AFAIK.  He didn't mention CRT in his letter to the college board.  Nor did he say the curriculum is too critical of American history.  And again, I'm 100% positive that, even after I gave you a link, you didn't even bother to go read the summary of topics of the course.  You simply read a headline somewhere, became bothered by it, and decided to start a thread based upon an inaccurate understanding of the topic. 

I’ve read 3 articles on this and the link you provided. I’m quite confident that my criticism of the decision to ban this course is on point. Based on your comments, my understanding of the topic is far more accurate than yours. 

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5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I’ve read 3 articles on this and the link you provided. I’m quite confident that my criticism of the decision to ban this course is on point. Based on your comments, my understanding of the topic is far more accurate than yours. 

Not likely.  Show some proof of your assertions.  I've shown proof they don't exist.  Your turn. 

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24 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

No. You don’t teach accuracy and truth when you attempt to cover up what actually happened (and is in some ways still happening.) 

Racism was not an issue that we solved by freeing the slaves and the Civil Rights movement. Racism is an integral part of the history of this country, woven into our foundation and it continues today. That’s the part that the current Florida government doesn’t want to acknowledge. 

I like you Tim and I appreciate your posting here. I do consider your take misguided and mistaken especially on this issue and this post is pretty much exhibit A of what CRT does to people and why Florida got it right because you ar so wrong.

The country is ever correcting it's flaws and errors and the vast majority of problems in regards to race were resolved in two barches: the 1860s, then again in the 1960s. I'm 51 and my entire lifetime, like those of most Americans alive in 2023, has been entirely post-Jim Crow. We've not only removed every singe legal barrier to black success, in fact we've reversed a great many of them for my entire lifetime. CRT abandons colorblindness in favor or race consciousness and actual racism. To their great detriment, the left followed their radical fringe into abandoning the moral high ground.  CRT shames gullible rich white liberals while simultaneously eliciting resentments and a feeling of hopelessness in black people. It divides rather than unites. It's based on Marxism and lies.

When you look at historical figures based on morality (or what passes for that) in 2023, you're going to find a lot of flaws but it's been an ongoing attempt to self correct and get things right and the structure set up can fix itself although the flaws are evident.

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

No The best prism is accuracy and truth. We will be united by the ideals that appeal to us all. You can’t force unity. That’s why I compared this to Stalinism. It’s an accurate comparison. The Soviet Union tried to eliminate truths that they found unpleasant. That’s what Florida is now trying to do. 

In the end, these sort of restrictions well come to be seen as backwards as the Tennessee school district that tried to ban the teaching of evolution 100 years ago. They won’t stand. 

Then you obviously don't want the liberals teaching history. Good for you. You are coming along.  :thumbsup:

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20 minutes ago, Strike said:

Not likely.  Show some proof of your assertions.  I've shown proof they don't exist.  Your turn. 

My assertions were proven in the first link I offered. You haven’t provided anything that refutes it. 

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19 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

I like you Tim and I appreciate your posting here. I do consider your take misguided and mistaken especially on this issue and this post is pretty much exhibit A of what CRT does to people and why Florida got it right because you ar so wrong.

The country is ever correcting it's flaws and errors and the vast majority of problems in regards to race were resolved in two barches: the 1860s, then again in the 1960s. I'm 51 and my entire lifetime, like those of most Americans alive in 2023, has been entirely post-Jim Crow. We've not only removed every singe legal barrier to black success, in fact we've reversed a great many of them for my entire lifetime. CRT abandons colorblindness in favor or race consciousness and actual racism. To their great detriment, the left followed their radical fringe into abandoning the moral high ground.  CRT shames gullible rich white liberals while simultaneously eliciting resentments and a feeling of hopelessness in black people. It divides rather than unites. It's based on Marxism and lies.

When you look at historical figures based on morality (or what passes for that) in 2023, you're going to find a lot of flaws but it's been an ongoing attempt to self correct and get things right and the structure set up can fix itself although the flaws are evident.

 

 

 

I actually think your point of view is valid. I even agree with some of your points though not all. I think you get caught up in presuming that African-American history, either taught with or without CRT, is going to be wholly negative. That’s simply not the case. The fight against racism is as big a part of our history as the racism itself. 

But even if all of your concerns were valid, and this course represented a purely leftist form of indoctrination, I would still be opposed to banning it. Why? Because African-American history should be taught. And because we’re talking about honor students who voluntarily are choosing to learn about it. If they learn something radical they’re smart enough to challenge it later. That’s what academic freedom is supposed to be about. The banning of this class, like the banning of books, is far more problematic than the content of the class. 

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22 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

My assertions were proven in the first link I offered. You haven’t provided anything that refutes it. 

Your link does not support your assertions.  If so I'm sure you'll be glad to quote the specific parts of your link that do.  This is what I mean when I say your perceptions get in the way of actually understanding the issue.

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29 minutes ago, Strike said:

Your link does not support your assertions.  If so I'm sure you'll be glad to quote the specific parts of your link that do.  This is what I mean when I say your perceptions get in the way of actually understanding the issue.

Putting aside the issue in question, I gotta say that you have to be the most pompous poster I have ever encountered. Everytime you disagree with me you accuse me of not understanding the issue. As usual I understand it far better than you do. Your posts are a joke. You haven’t provided any good reason to ban this course; neither has DeSantis for that matter. Stop with the constant challenges and offer some real arguments. For once. 

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5 hours ago, Strike said:

Your link does not support your assertions.  If so I'm sure you'll be glad to quote the specific parts of your link that do.  This is what I mean when I say your perceptions get in the way of actually understanding the issue.

Why even bother with this dipsh!t when he starts all of his arguments with false premises?  The 1619 Project is false history. It is leftist agitprop and has been scorned by actual historians. 

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5 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Putting aside the issue in question, I gotta say that you have to be the most pompous poster I have ever encountered. Everytime you disagree with me you accuse me of not understanding the issue. As usual I understand it far better than you do. Your posts are a joke. You haven’t provided any good reason to ban this course; neither has DeSantis for that matter. Stop with the constant challenges and offer some real arguments. For once. 

Cry harder 

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8 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

 

The DeSantis administration has taken a decidedly Stalinist approach to education: we will teach what we want you to learn, all else is verboten! 

Thank God 

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Much of the issue revolves around the false premise of CRT, which itself is an offshoot of Critical Theory from the Frankfort School in Germany from the early 1900's. and this offshoot inherited the main problem of that cult....it fails to provide rational standards by which it can justify its assertions.

To his credit Desantis is protecting our children and community from some really dark stuff being introduced into the educational system, which has been on a steady and measurable decline for a few decades.

Kudo's to him for standing up to the nonsense and false preaching of leftist zealots. 

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5 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Putting aside the issue in question, I gotta say that you have to be the most pompous poster I have ever encountered. Everytime you disagree with me you accuse me of not understanding the issue. As usual I understand it far better than you do. Your posts are a joke. You haven’t provided any good reason to ban this course; neither has DeSantis for that matter. Stop with the constant challenges and offer some real arguments. For once. 

Did you read the entire 82 page document?  If not, I wouldn’t comment any further.  If you read it and you continue with your current stance, then you’re advocating for queer theory masquerading AA studies to be taught.  
 

Lots of the stuff in there seems perfectly applicable to an AA studies curriculum, but some of it is absolute horse shat, hence the disapproval from FL.  

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I haven't read the article. Anyone who brings something like this up, but also doesn't acknowledge the brain washing curriculum in public schools teaching kids to become priceless painting ruining, asphalt hand gluing poosays who can't cope with real life, obviously has a one sided agenda who is also incapable of observing anything objectively. That person is the type of person who would agree to shut off all fossil fuels immediately, and then start crying because society fell apart.

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Amazing how easy it is to know how every single liberal operates. It's almost like there is a programmable manual that gets updated every day or so

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7 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Amazing how easy it is to know how every single liberal operates. It's almost like there is a programmable manual that gets updated every day or so

It’s a cult

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6 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Putting aside the issue in question, I gotta say that you have to be the most pompous poster I have ever encountered. Everytime you disagree with me you accuse me of not understanding the issue. As usual I understand it far better than you do. Your posts are a joke. You haven’t provided any good reason to ban this course; neither has DeSantis for that matter. Stop with the constant challenges and offer some real arguments. For once. 

Tim, it's simple.  You made assertions.  Specifically, that this had something to do with CRT or being too critical of American history.  Neither of those premises exist in the letter Desantis' administration sent to the college board.  I've asked you to support the existence of those premises.  The article you linked, which you say supports them, does not.  Is it too much to ask you to post quotes from the article you say supports your premises, if just so we are discussing the same issues/objections?  I don't think that's unreasonable, or "pompous", at all.  But I will always challenge your bullsh*t so get used to it or GTFO. I'd rather the latter but will continue with the former.

It's funny.  Libs are always suggesting parents should defer to the government to decide on what to teach their kids.  Apparently that only applies when the government wants to teach the curriculum you approve of. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Strike said:

It's funny.  Libs are always suggesting parents should defer to the government to decide on what to teach their kids.  Apparently that only applies when the government wants to teach the curriculum you approve of. 

 

This is a problem. The only contributions government adds to any situation is to lower the quality, elongate the time to secure the outcome, and make it more expensive.

We MUST stop thinking of government as a solution to anything.....ever.....

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Just now, RLLD said:

This is a problem. The only contributions government adds to any situation is to lower the quality, elongate the time to secure the outcome, and make it more expensive.

We MUST stop thinking of government as a solution to anything.....ever.....

Right, but that's what we're always being told.  If a parent shows up at a school board meeting to complain they're told to STFU and just take the education and/or policies we enact.  We're the "professionals."  That's what people like Tim espouse all day, every day.  But when the government enacts a policy or education standard he doesn't like, they're being "Staliinist." 

I don't really get why Tim gives a fock what Desantis does.  Tim lives in CA, his kids go to school in CA, and he'd never vote for Desantis anyways.  This literally has nothing to do with Tim's life. 

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8 minutes ago, Strike said:

I don't really get why Tim gives a fock what Desantis does.  Tim lives in CA, his kids go to school in CA, and he'd never vote for Desantis anyways.  This literally has nothing to do with Tim's life. 

DeSantis is the presumptive Republican nominee for president in '24. I think it's valid to explore his behavior as the chief executive of Florida when he may be the next POTUS.

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8 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

 

In the end, these sort of restrictions well come to be seen as backwards as the Tennessee school district that tried to ban the teaching of evolution 100 years ago. They won’t stand. 

And this climate change hysteria will be viewed in the same way we now view the Salem witch trials.

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41 minutes ago, Strike said:

Tim, it's simple.  You made assertions.  Specifically, that this had something to do with CRT or being too critical of American history.  Neither of those premises exist in the letter Desantis' administration sent to the college board.  I've asked you to support the existence of those premises.  The article you linked, which you say supports them, does not.  Is it too much to ask you to post quotes from the article you say supports your premises, if just so we are discussing the same issues/objections?  I don't think that's unreasonable, or "pompous", at all.  But I will always challenge your bullsh*t so get used to it or GTFO. I'd rather the latter but will continue with the former.

It's funny.  Libs are always suggesting parents should defer to the government to decide on what to teach their kids.  Apparently that only applies when the government wants to teach the curriculum you approve of. 

 

1. I didn’t bring up CRT. Voltaire did, along with a few other posters. I was responding to him. 
2. The assertion that this ban is because it’s too critical of American history (and of white Americans in particular) is a logical assumption. Of course they’re never going to say that, but the actual reasons they offer for the ban are nonsensical. 
 

I’m not at all surprised that you don’t read what I write. 

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Definitely should not have gone into the desantis thread. 

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28 minutes ago, Fnord said:

DeSantis is the presumptive Republican nominee for president in '24. I think it's valid to explore his behavior as the chief executive of Florida when he may be the next POTUS.

That’s not why. If you could guarantee me that DeSantis will be the President next time around I will take that, gladly. I don’t like DeSantis’ politics, at all, but I think he is competent. Sadly he is not the ACTUAL presumptive Republican nominee, and the guy who is lacks competence. So between the two give me Ron. 
 

I’ve been very clear in my motive for bringing this issue up: I think it’s appalling that the state of Florida, which is part of my country, is banning African-American studies as an AP course. There’s nothing ulterior going on, no other motive. 

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