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The Real timschochet

DeSantis’ Florida continues to persecute academic freedom

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10 hours ago, Strike said:

As usual, I'm sure you haven't actually researched this issue Tim.  You're just following your marching orders.  If you want to, there's a link to a summary of the content of this course here:

https://www.theflstandard.com/exclusive-rejected-african-american-studies-course-in-florida-features-crt-intersectionality-and-queer-theory/

It's a vague bunch of crap that no student should be learning.  I'm fine with it being blocked.   The people in charge of educating our children are doing them a huge disservice.  It saddens me.

Reading an insane far right website isn’t “research.” 

DeSantis is doing this to appeal to the racist Trump voters ahead of his 2024 campaign.  Based on the positive reception here, it seems to be working.

Nice how he nuked a course that teaches extensively about MLK Jr… just a day or two after saying how great MLK Jr. was. Why doesn’t he want kids to learn about him then?

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8 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yeah so what? Strike made the same point. It’s a lot of drivel. They don’t mean it. They’re not offering any kind of feedback. 
 

The subject matter is African-American history. The specifics, most of them, should be left to the instructor of the course. And THAT is what Florida objects to. They want to dictate everything, which is why I correctly called it Stalinist and an affront to academic freedom. 
 

But I also believe that  even if the College Board had provided extremely specific course guidelines, Florida would still ban this course. Because it’s the subject matter that bothers them. 

Glad you acknowledge that you are discussing your beliefs and not facts.

5 minutes ago, Strike said:

This is incorrect.  Even the course summary doesn't describe it as a history course.  It describes it as inter-disciplinary.  It is not simply a history course.   And then you question why I don't believe you understand the topics being discussed.  🤣

 

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

This is an irrelevant distinction. Hopefully all history courses would be described this way. 

The person developing the study doesn't think it is irrelevant.  Which you would know if you read your own link:

Quote

Hill, who was a co-chair on the committee that helped develop the course, said they spent a decade creating the framework and ensuring the historical accuracy of the material, but she noted that it's also not a history course. It's a multidisciplinary study of the African American diaspora that includes literature, the arts, science, politics and geography.

 

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1 minute ago, dogcows said:

Reading an insane far right website isn’t “research.” 

DeSantis is doing this to appeal to the racist Trump voters ahead of his 2024 campaign.  Based on the positive reception here, it seems to be working.

Nice how he nuked a course that teaches extensively about MLK Jr… just a day or two after saying how great MLK Jr. was. Why doesn’t he want kids to learn about him then?

This is like when Leftists bury a provision to not club baby seals into an otherwise pork-filled bill, then when conservatives vote No, they say that conservatives want to club baby seals.  :thumbsup: 

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6 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Reading an insane far right website isn’t “research.” 

DeSantis is doing this to appeal to the racist Trump voters ahead of his 2024 campaign.  Based on the positive reception here, it seems to be working.

Nice how he nuked a course that teaches extensively about MLK Jr… just a day or two after saying how great MLK Jr. was. Why doesn’t he want kids to learn about him then?

Also, typical leftist to label anything right of Bernie Sanders as "far right."

They have a specific analysis of the curriculum:

Quote

CRITICAL RACE THEORY

Section 4 of the syllabus introduces the topic “Postracial Racism and Colorblindness” and features texts from Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, who employs Critical Race Theory in his writings.

Eduardo Bonilla-Silva’s book Racism without Racists describes how “Whites talk, think, and account for the existence of racial inequality and makes clear that color-blind racism is as insidious now as ever.” The book’s second chapter, entitled “What is Systemic Racism? Coming to Terms with How Racism Shapes ‘All’ Whites (and Non-Whites)” explains how “all members of society participate in structural racism,” according to an online summary.

Section 4 also includes “Black Queer Studies.” A description states: “This topic explores the concept of queer color critique, grounded in Black feminism and intersectionality, as a Black studies lens that shifts sexuality studies towards racial analysis.”

Do you refute this, or just labeling the source out of laziness?

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35 minutes ago, Fnord said:

Meh. Trump was thoroughly vetted and exposed and those of us that don't consider right wing media to be the gospel realized what a freak he was, and never thought America was dumb enough to elect him. Joke's on us. Also, Biden's escapades with keeping top secret documents is all over the so-called leftist media, and overall he's not being defended for doing it. This never fails to amaze me, that people think we hated Trump because he is a Republican who made "mean tweets." We hate him because he's repugnant, vile, stupid, self serving, and a threat to the American way of life. I could go on.

Correct.  The vetting of Trump is an example of how to do it....  the vetting of Biden is an example of how NOT to do it. 

Trump delivered fantastic results, we would all be in a much better place if he had been re-elected. 

I concur with your assessment of Trump. But I know something that many people do not. Having served this nation in time of war, I have been around leadership. Some good and some bad. There were plenty of great leaders who were repugnant, vile and stupid.....but good focking leaders, who kept us alive. I understand pointedly what matters for a leader. Trump has the right leadership pieces, despite being a punk azz, Biden is the worst kind of leader, despite his ability to lie and convince people he is some "good guy, which he clearly is not. 

Unfortunately, we do not always gravitate to the best leader, because we allow unimportant factors to influence us. 

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34 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I don't know about that.  Republican's trash Hitler 2.0 out there in California a lot.

Republicans will always be trashing Democrats, and Democrats will always be trashing Republicans.  This is not the gauge.  They are all liars, and they lie about each other.

MEDIA on the other hand is supposed to question these liars relentlessly.....and THAT is where we are being failed. 

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Just now, RLLD said:

Republicans will always be trashing Democrats, and Democrats will always be trashing Republicans.  This is not the gauge.  They are all liars, and they lie about each other.

MEDIA on the other hand is supposed to question these liars relentlessly.....and THAT is where we are being failed. 

I gotchya.

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42 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Also, typical leftist to label anything right of Bernie Sanders as "far right."

They have a specific analysis of the curriculum:

Do you refute this, or just labeling the source out of laziness?

The author they cite wrote about CRT. Stephen King wrote about a killer clown. Not all of his books are about killer clowns. You do see that distinction, right? I see nothing in the article that states CRT is taught in the class.

Also, queer black people exist. What is wrong with learning about them?

This is an optional class. The name of it obviously tells what it’s about. The syllabus can be viewed before signing up for the class. Nobody is being forced to take this. So what’s the problem exactly?

DeSantis wrote a letter. In that letter, he refused to give any specific reason why the course is banned. What is in there that breaks the law? He doesn’t say. Gee, I wonder why?

It’s an appeal to the racists to let them know he has their backs, and he should vote for them in 2024.

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10 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

CRT is an accurate accounting of history. The ONLY reason I would oppose teaching it in primary or high school is that it focuses too much attention on aspects of black history to the detriment of other topics just as vital. However in an AP dedicated to the subject of African-American history, such a restriction does not even apply. 
 

Keep in mind that this course is a voluntary one designed for honor students. To ban the subject matter based on the fear that it will be too critical of American history is outrageous. 

CRT says the country was built on the backs of slaves, that is blatantly false

CRT says the only solution to past injustice is future injustice

CRT says black people cant be racist

 

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10 minutes ago, dogcows said:

The author they cite wrote about CRT. Stephen King wrote about a killer clown. Not all of his books are about killer clowns. You do see that distinction, right? I see nothing in the article that states CRT is taught in the class.

Also, queer black people exist. What is wrong with learning about them?

This is an optional class. The name of it obviously tells what it’s about. The syllabus can be viewed before signing up for the class. Nobody is being forced to take this. So what’s the problem exactly?

DeSantis wrote a letter. In that letter, he refused to give any specific reason why the course is banned. What is in there that breaks the law? He doesn’t say. Gee, I wonder why?

It’s an appeal to the racists to let them know he has their backs, and he should vote for them in 2024.

AP classes are for classes that are actually useful, there isnt an AP PE class, photography, art, shop, etc

why do you need to learn about queer black people, what does that have to do with education?

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3 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

AP classes are for classes that are actually useful, there isnt an AP PE class, photography, art, shop, etc

why do you need to learn about queer black people, what does that have to do with education?

You realize AP stands for Advanced Placement, right? These are courses that prepare one for college, and can allow one to skip a class. Whether you like it or not, some people major in history. You can even major in African American History. Shouldn’t kids choosing that major have the opportunity to take an AP course to save some money on tuition?

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2 minutes ago, dogcows said:

You realize AP stands for Advanced Placement, right? These are courses that prepare one for college, and can allow one to skip a class. Whether you like it or not, some people major in history. You can even major in African American History. Shouldn’t kids choosing that major have the opportunity to take an AP course to save some money on tuition?

yes, and they are for advanced education classes, it has nothing to do with saving money on tuition, its to challenge smarter kids to advance faster

the article in question talks about this being a trial and the cirriculum not having value, and they are willing to re-examine in the future

and yes I got 5/4 on 4 AP classes way back when

 

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10 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

CRT is an accurate accounting of history. The ONLY reason I would oppose teaching it in primary or high school is that it focuses too much attention on aspects of black history to the detriment of other topics just as vital. However in an AP dedicated to the subject of African-American history, such a restriction does not even apply. 
 

Keep in mind that this course is a voluntary one designed for honor students. To ban the subject matter based on the fear that it will be too critical of American history is outrageous. 

This is where the outrage machine loses me a bit as well.   AP classes are elective classes designed for college prep.   

I am more on board with them if this was a general history class for Middle Schools or something that everyone was meant to take.   The reaction never seems to be focused on the elective part, it's right to we don't agree with what is being taught, so therefore it must be stopped or removed.  How about your kid just doesn't take the damn course?   The EXACT sentiment that all the righties in here are complaining about the lefties having.  

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1 minute ago, BuckSwope said:

This is where the outrage machine loses me a bit as well.   AP classes are elective classes designed for college prep.   

I am more on board with them if this was a general history class for Middle Schools or something that everyone was meant to take.   The reaction never seems to be focused on the elective part, it's right to we don't agree with what is being taught, so therefore it must be stopped or removed.  How about your kid just doesn't take the damn course?   The EXACT sentiment that all the righties in here are complaining about the lefties having.  

a class has to have value to exist, the article even says it has no clear cirriculum

 

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5 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

a class has to have value to exist, the article even says it has no clear cirriculum

 

On the flip side, if it has no clear curriculum how do we know what's in it to be upset or not upset about?  

 

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What’s the end result of all this? The truth? Ok. America is horribly racist and always has been. Noted. Now what? Shall we apologize? I’m not. I had nothing to do with it. 

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You learn basic math. That leads to algebra, trig, etc. maybe we get some great engineers out of the deal, and a smarter populace.  So now we learn how horrible America is. What’s next? Burn the pace down? 

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14 minutes ago, dogcows said:

You realize AP stands for Advanced Placement, right? These are courses that prepare one for college, and can allow one to skip a class. Whether you like it or not, some people major in history. You can even major in African American History. Shouldn’t kids choosing that major have the opportunity to take an AP course to save some money on tuition?

Who funds this?

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4 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

On the flip side, if it has no clear curriculum how do we know what's in it to be upset or not upset about?  

 

thats why its not allows, they said present a clear curriculum and we will look at it

 

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12 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

a class has to have value to exist, the article even says it has no clear cirriculum

 

So Ron DeSantis is the sole arbiter of whether a class has value?

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31 minutes ago, dogcows said:

The author they cite wrote about CRT. Stephen King wrote about a killer clown. Not all of his books are about killer clowns. You do see that distinction, right? I see nothing in the article that states CRT is taught in the class.

Also, queer black people exist. What is wrong with learning about them?

This is an optional class. The name of it obviously tells what it’s about. The syllabus can be viewed before signing up for the class. Nobody is being forced to take this. So what’s the problem exactly?

DeSantis wrote a letter. In that letter, he refused to give any specific reason why the course is banned. What is in there that breaks the law? He doesn’t say. Gee, I wonder why?

It’s an appeal to the racists to let them know he has their backs, and he should vote for them in 2024.

That's a shiotty analogy.  If the topic was the application of clowns in fiction, it would be reasonable to expect King to write about killer clowns and It.  It is reasonable to expect the author to incorporate his work from his book on this very topic into his curriculum.  HTH

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2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Who funds this?

You move the goalposts so much that Brett Maher might even be able to kick an extra point on accident.

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2 minutes ago, dogcows said:

You move the goalposts so much that Brett Maher might even be able to kick an extra point on accident.

You introduced the concept of saving money, which triggered the question in my mind.  

I mean, you already think that a guy who made his mark writing about CRT isn't going to discuss CRT in this class, so I'm not sure where else to go here.  :dunno: 

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6 minutes ago, dogcows said:

So Ron DeSantis is the sole arbiter of whether a class has value?

no, you think he sits around and is like nope, he has a team, he ultimately is in charge of the public school system

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47 minutes ago, dogcows said:

The author they cite wrote about CRT. Stephen King wrote about a killer clown. Not all of his books are about killer clowns. You do see that distinction, right? I see nothing in the article that states CRT is taught in the class.

Also, queer black people exist. What is wrong with learning about them?

This is an optional class. The name of it obviously tells what it’s about. The syllabus can be viewed before signing up for the class. Nobody is being forced to take this. So what’s the problem exactly?

DeSantis wrote a letter. In that letter, he refused to give any specific reason why the course is banned. What is in there that breaks the law? He doesn’t say. Gee, I wonder why?

It’s an appeal to the racists to let them know he has their backs, and he should vote for them in 2024.

Agree with almost all of this 100%. But not with your last paragraph. 

Most of those who approve of what DeSantis is doing here are not racist. They simply like that he is willing to fight back against what they (wrongfully, IMO) perceive as a dangerous leftist presentation of history and culture. For example, read what RaidersHatersRevenge wrote about CRT in response to my post. His information is incorrect, but it’s not racist. 
 

Calling these folks racist is lazy and unfair. And it makes things easier for the true racists that are out there. 

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If it’s all about truth and accuracy let’s have at it. All the way.  Let’s start with human sacrifice and slavery in the Americas prior to 1492. 

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I wonder if we should be having advanced grade school and high school classes that focus on the American Indians and what they used to do to the warriors and the women of their tribal nomadic enemies that were also here in the Americas.

We wouldn't want to ban teaching that information to our kids.

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2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

While it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the folks who made this determination were homophobic as well as fearful of criticism of white people, I doubt that was their main consideration. 

Wild speculation to support your assertion?  Yep, it checks out.  

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Indians scalping their enemies long before the white man showed up. CRT cover that, seeing as it’s about the truth and all? 

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15 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Most of those who approve of what DeSantis is doing here are not racist. They simply like that he is willing to fight back against what they (wrongfully, IMO) perceive as a dangerous leftist presentation of history and culture. For example, read what RaidersHatersRevenge wrote about CRT in response to my post. His information is incorrect, but it’s not racist. 
 

Calling these folks racist is lazy and unfair. And it makes things easier for the true racists that are out there. 

I do not believe all his supporters are racist. But there are many racist voters who will be energized by stuff like this. He doesn’t need these kind of stunts to get the non-racist supporters on board. They already support him for other reasons. 

I should have made that distinction, and I didn’t... my bad.

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Is fun to watch the liberals throw around the 'Racist' for the last 15 years like they even know what it means.

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36 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

no, you think he sits around and is like nope, he has a team, he ultimately is in charge of the public school system

Who is in the team? What are their criteria? That should be public knowledge, right? And yet the letter gives no reasons. Which just further confirms that this is all about his “anti-WOKE” agenda, and not about education or saving money or anything else. He’s angling for the Presidency, and he thinks stunts like this and sending migrants from Texas to Martha’s Vineyard will get him there.

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1 hour ago, RLLD said:

Correct.  The vetting of Trump is an example of how to do it....  the vetting of Biden is an example of how NOT to do it. 

Trump delivered fantastic results, we would all be in a much better place if he had been re-elected. 

I concur with your assessment of Trump. But I know something that many people do not. Having served this nation in time of war, I have been around leadership. Some good and some bad. There were plenty of great leaders who were repugnant, vile and stupid.....but good focking leaders, who kept us alive. I understand pointedly what matters for a leader. Trump has the right leadership pieces, despite being a punk azz, Biden is the worst kind of leader, despite his ability to lie and convince people he is some "good guy, which he clearly is not. 

Unfortunately, we do not always gravitate to the best leader, because we allow unimportant factors to influence us. 

Good post, thanks. Of course I disagree vehemently that Trump was/is a good leader. He takes zero responsibility and readily blames everyone else for his own shortcomings and poor decisions, cannot be relied on in a crisis (Covid), and is selfish, mercurial and petty. All horrible leadership characteristics. And while being an a$$hole might still play in the military, where the rules are much different and lives and national security are on the line, it just doesn't work anywhere else.  Not anymore. Act like Trump in any other walk of life and you'll be a complete pariah professionally and socially. Deservedly so. 

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When the Russians raped Berlin, there were thousands of abortions  performed. This was possible because the Nazis were so good at abortion. 

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1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

When the Russians raped Berlin, there were thousands of abortions  performed. This was possible because the Nazis were so good at abortion. 

WTF???

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Just now, The Real timschochet said:

WTF???

Somebody fix the bot, it’s broken. 🤣

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35 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Somebody fix the bot, it’s broken. 🤣

How does one fix your liberal stupidity? That bot in you is hard wired and there are no reprogramming options available. TDS is not a curable virus.

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15 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Somebody fix the bot, it’s broken. 🤣

You’re the one that was making parallels to the Nazis about sterilization. I’m Just doing  the same with abortion.  

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The OP just wanted to flex his nazi side by using the word Verboten in a sentence.  Ahh lefty...when u gonna learn.

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29 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

You’re the one that was making parallels to the Nazis about sterilization. I’m Just doing  the same with abortion.  

Bot doesn’t know which thread it’s in. Maybe we need to reboot it?

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