Bobby Abreu Should be in the Hall of Fame. Change my Mind

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

Curt Schilling has the highest WAR of anyone not in the HOF.  79.5

[josh wiley 22]

Always reminded me of Roberto alomar

[TBayXXXVII 1,912]

Abreu was an "above average" hitter and a "substantially below average" fielder.  At best, as a player overall, he was "average".  Average players do not belong in the Hall of Fame,

[Gepetto 825]

Jimmy Rollins I agree should be in the HOF.  HOF is a joke.  I know who the greatest players are already without the HOF.

[Gepetto 825]

Albert Belle and Juan Gonzalez were better than Abreu.

[TimHauck 1,480]

17 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Abreu was an "above average" hitter and a "substantially below average" fielder.  At best, as a player overall, he was "average".  Average players do not belong in the Hall of Fame,

He was not substantially below average.  He was average.  He had a good arm and didn’t commit many errors.  He just didn’t dive or run into walls, which enabled him to play in 150+ games for 13 straight seasons.

Many Phillies fans liked to compare his defensive effort to Aaron Rowand, who famously broke his face running into the wall.   Except he only played 150+ games three times in his career.

 

Here’s an interesting HOF case comparison:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sunday-notes-did-bobby-abreu-have-a-better-mlb-career-than-ichiro-suzuki/

[BufordT 352]

20 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Abreu was an "above average" hitter and a "substantially below average" fielder.  At best, as a player overall, he was "average".  Average players do not belong in the Hall of Fame,

 

3 hours ago, TimHauck said:

He was not substantially below average.  He was average.  He had a good arm and didn’t commit many errors.  He just didn’t dive or run into walls, which enabled him to play in 150+ games for 13 straight seasons.

He did win a gold glove.  Late in his career he became a liability out there.

[TimHauck 1,480]

7 hours ago, BufordT said:

 

He did win a gold glove.  Late in his career he became a liability out there.

He only won a gold glove because of his offensive numbers.  Last couple years I’ll give you he was bad but overall he wasn’t nearly as bad as people made him out to be.

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

I’ll take Paul O’Neill over him. 

[edjr 5,055]

1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I’ll take Paul O’Neill over him. 

ultimate dirt dog. 

[TBayXXXVII 1,912]

13 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I’ll take Paul O’Neill over him. 

I wouldn't.  I think he's a "roid" guy.  In Cincinnati he was a perfectly fine player who had 1 really good season and that was his age 28 season.  He was at his best from age 30 to 36.  That's not normal.  Late bloomer?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  The Reds, while O'Neill was there, was not today's Reds.  He won a WS there in 1990, and that was one of his worst seasons there.

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

10 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I wouldn't.  I think he's a "roid" guy.  In Cincinnati he was a perfectly fine player who had 1 really good season and that was his age 28 season.  He was at his best from age 30 to 36.  That's not normal.  Late bloomer?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  The Reds, while O'Neill was there, was not today's Reds.  He won a WS there in 1990, and that was one of his worst seasons there.

The most home runs he hit as a Yankee was 24, with the short porch, so I doubt it.

[edjr 5,055]

17 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

The most home runs he hit as a Yankee was 24, with the short porch, so I doubt it.

That was before they turned right field into a little league park

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

10 minutes ago, edjr said:

That was before they turned right field into a little league park

It’s still .314, same as it was then. 

[TBayXXXVII 1,912]

On 1/22/2023 at 7:47 AM, TimHauck said:

He was not substantially below average.  He was average.  He had a good arm and didn’t commit many errors.  He just didn’t dive or run into walls, which enabled him to play in 150+ games for 13 straight seasons.

Many Phillies fans liked to compare his defensive effort to Aaron Rowand, who famously broke his face running into the wall.   Except he only played 150+ games three times in his career.

 

Here’s an interesting HOF case comparison:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sunday-notes-did-bobby-abreu-have-a-better-mlb-career-than-ichiro-suzuki/

He wasn't an average fielder.  That's right, he didn't commit many errors because never got to the ball.  He was a "I'll just let it drop, and throw the ball" kind of fielder.  Yeah, that allowed "...him to play in 150+ games for 13 straight seasons," but it doesn't make him a good fielder.  He was good in his early years when he was busting his butt out there, but after 3 or 4 years... he was very lackadaisical.  Yeah, Phillies fans don't overrate their players, right? 

The guy was a great hitter, no doubt, but fielding... politely speaking, not so much.  I even agree with the Abreu/Ichiro argument at the plate.  Ichiro was an elite "singles hitter", but that's all he was.  He had little power and/or gap power.  His speed turned doubles into triples, and that's great, but really, outside of getting base hits, that's all you go from him.  He rarely drew walks.  Now, one thing I will forgive him a bit on was his age.  It wasn't his fault he didn't come here until he was 27.  Abreu had 3 full seasons, plus, by the time he entered his age 27 season.  Fielding-wise, he was much better than Abreu.  Ichiro did play CF and LF and was kinda bad, considering his speed... but in RF, like Abreu, he was light years better.

Ichiro hit the 3k hit mark.  That's getting him into the HOF.  Abreu had over 1800 AB's by his age 27 season.  If you count Ichiro's 1800 (or so), AB's in Japan prior to his age 27 season, he's around 3600 hits.  Having 3k hits will get you into the Hall... 3600 is just icing on the cake.  Still, overall hitting, I think they're the same.

[edjr 5,055]

4 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

It’s still .314, same as it was then. 

that is right down the line. it is shorter as it goes

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

3 minutes ago, edjr said:

that is right down the line. it is shorter as it goes

I don’t think so Ed. It’s the opposite.  Right center is 385

[TBayXXXVII 1,912]

36 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

The most home runs he hit as a Yankee was 24, with the short porch, so I doubt it.

HR's aren't the only thing 'roids help with.  They also help with muscle fatigue, confidence, aggression, and athleticism, when it comes to professional athletes.  In O'Neill's last 5 seasons in Cincinnati (on really good teams mind you), his age 25-29 seasons (the age range where players enter and hit their peak), his slash line was .259 / .337 / .428.  He goes to NY and his slash line over the next 5 years, his age 30-34 seasons (which is generally the back end of a players peak and the twilight years), was .317 / .403 / .519.  He his 60 points better, leading to a 65 point jump in OBP and his SLG was 90 points better.  That doesn't happen without "help".  That's not normal.  Like I said, he could be one of those exception guys.  It's certainly possible.  I just doubt it.  A player's prime is considered his age 25 to 30 (the height being age 27), seasons.  In O'Neill's age 35 season, his slash line was .317 / .372 / .510... each category is better than every year between his age 25 to 30 seasons.  I'm sorry, I'm not buying it.  He did something, and didn't get caught.

[TimHauck 1,480]

22 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

He wasn't an average fielder.  That's right, he didn't commit many errors because never got to the ball.  He was a "I'll just let it drop, and throw the ball" kind of fielder.  Yeah, that allowed "...him to play in 150+ games for 13 straight seasons," but it doesn't make him a good fielder.  He was good in his early years when he was busting his butt out there, but after 3 or 4 years... he was very lackadaisical.  Yeah, Phillies fans don't overrate their players, right? 

The guy was a great hitter, no doubt, but fielding... politely speaking, not so much.  I even agree with the Abreu/Ichiro argument at the plate.  Ichiro was an elite "singles hitter", but that's all he was.  He had little power and/or gap power.  His speed turned doubles into triples, and that's great, but really, outside of getting base hits, that's all you go from him.  He rarely drew walks.  Now, one thing I will forgive him a bit on was his age.  It wasn't his fault he didn't come here until he was 27.  Abreu had 3 full seasons, plus, by the time he entered his age 27 season.  Fielding-wise, he was much better than Abreu.  Ichiro did play CF and LF and was kinda bad, considering his speed... but in RF, like Abreu, he was light years better.

Ichiro hit the 3k hit mark.  That's getting him into the HOF.  Abreu had over 1800 AB's by his age 27 season.  If you count Ichiro's 1800 (or so), AB's in Japan prior to his age 27 season, he's around 3600 hits.  Having 3k hits will get you into the Hall... 3600 is just icing on the cake.  Still, overall hitting, I think they're the same.

I didn’t say Abreu was a good fielder.  I said he was average.  Yes he was below average in getting to balls, but he had a very good arm which made his overall defense average.

And I nor the article were saying he’s better than Ichiro.  Just an interesting comparison since their offensive numbers were similar and Ichiro will likely get in on the first ballot and Abreu probably won’t get in at all.  Yes Ichiro was much better on defense.

[TBayXXXVII 1,912]

40 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I didn’t say Abreu was a good fielder.  I said he was average.  Yes he was below average in getting to balls, but he had a very good arm which made his overall defense average.

And I nor the article were saying he’s better than Ichiro.  Just an interesting comparison since their offensive numbers were similar and Ichiro will likely get in on the first ballot and Abreu probably won’t get in at all.  Yes Ichiro was much better on defense.

I know you didn't say he was a good fielder... it was the first sentence of my response.   I was saying why he wasn't even that good ("that good", being "average").

If you're below average getting to balls, that means you're a below average fielder.  As an outfielder, you're primary job is to get to the ball.  Yes, he did have a good arm, but giving up hits, but holding people to a single instead of a double, rather that them being outs, does not make you average "overall".  It makes you "below average".

The article was saying they were comparable.  I agree, they were.  I said that.  They were just different.  Ichiro was a singles hitter, and elite at it.  Abreu was a better well rounded hitter.  The difference was that Ichiro was elite at what he did and Abreu was above average at what he did.  That's why Ichiro is getting in... and why Abreu isn't... well, I shouldn't say "isn't".  Abreu may get in, I just don't think he will and I'm not sure he should.  HOF's are watered down these days, so it's possible Abreu does get in.  While I don't think he should get in, if he does... hey, good for him.  It's not like he doesn't warrant consideration.

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

55 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

HR's aren't the only thing 'roids help with.  They also help with muscle fatigue, confidence, aggression, and athleticism, when it comes to professional athletes.  In O'Neill's last 5 seasons in Cincinnati (on really good teams mind you), his age 25-29 seasons (the age range where players enter and hit their peak), his slash line was .259 / .337 / .428.  He goes to NY and his slash line over the next 5 years, his age 30-34 seasons (which is generally the back end of a players peak and the twilight years), was .317 / .403 / .519.  He his 60 points better, leading to a 65 point jump in OBP and his SLG was 90 points better.  That doesn't happen without "help".  That's not normal.  Like I said, he could be one of those exception guys.  It's certainly possible.  I just doubt it.  A player's prime is considered his age 25 to 30 (the height being age 27), seasons.  In O'Neill's age 35 season, his slash line was .317 / .372 / .510... each category is better than every year between his age 25 to 30 seasons.  I'm sorry, I'm not buying it.  He did something, and didn't get caught.

Yeah. Pinella wanted him to hit for power. O’neill wanted to hit for average. That’s why he was traded and they didn’t get along. When he got to the Yankees the emphasis was put on. OBP. And BA. That’s what happened. He probably weighed less when he retired. You’re way off. 

[TBayXXXVII 1,912]

9 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Yeah. Pinella wanted him to hit for power. O’neill wanted to hit for average. That’s why he was traded and they didn’t get along. When he got to the Yankees the emphasis was put on. OBP. And BA. That’s what happened. He probably weighed less when he retired. You’re way off. 

Sure, let's pretend that's the reason.  LOL   If he played for the Cleveland, you'd be saying the same thing I am.  

I don't doubt that this was "part" of it, but come on, if you think that's "the reason", I have this bridge I'd like to sell you... it's in San Francisco.  I don't need it anymore.

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

14 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Sure, let's pretend that's the reason.  LOL   If he played for the Cleveland, you'd be saying the same thing I am.  

Did you watch the Yankees prior to Giambi and A - Rod? They were all about getting on base. From the time O’Neill got there until he left they had one guy hit over 40 hrs.  Tino in 1997. While the rest of MLB was jacking HR’s left and right the Yankees weren’t. They were doing moneyball long before the A’s were. It was the organizations emphases when Buck and Gene Michael took over in 1992. Their first big trade was trading for O’Neill and telling him to concentrate on getting on base.  

[TBayXXXVII 1,912]

11 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Did you watch the Yankees prior to Giambi and A - Rod? They were all about getting on base. From the time O’Neill got there until he left they had one guy hit over 40 hrs.  Tino in 1997. While the rest of MLB was jacking HR’s left and right the Yankees weren’t. They were doing moneyball long before the A’s were. It was the organizations emphases when Buck and Gene Michael took over in 1992. Their first big trade was trading for O’Neill and telling him to concentrate on getting on base.  

Yeah, I got ya.  So, here's that bridge that I own.  Because I know you, I'll cut you a deal... just $2M.  I know if I put it out on the open market, I can easily get 10x that.

[TimHauck 1,480]

Abreu is better than O’Neill in every offensive statistical category and only had 150 more plate appearances 

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

50 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Abreu is better than O’Neill in every offensive statistical category and only had 150 more plate appearances 

Yup. And I’ll still take O’Neill. Stat  Nerd. Just like in the 90’s I said I’d take Jeter over A Rod and Nomar.  I want winners. 

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

53 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Yeah, I got ya.  So, here's that bridge that I own.  Because I know you, I'll cut you a deal... just $2M.  I know if I put it out on the open market, I can easily get 10x that.

Sorry you missed baseball in the 90’s. It was great. 

[posty 2,170]

2 hours ago, edjr said:

that is right down the line. it is shorter as it goes

It is a .314 batting average to the fence?  Man, HT is beyond stupid...

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

8 minutes ago, posty said:

It is a .314 batting average to the fence?  Man, HT is beyond stupid...

What? That’s so stupid I thought taco balls said it. You’re a moron. 

[posty 2,170]

Oh lookie, my shadow is following me around again...  

It must be lonely...

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

2 minutes ago, posty said:

Oh lookie, my shadow is following me around again...  

Sure. You brought me up. Still sore about the Yankees whipping the “team of the 90’s” twice, in the 90’s? That was fun 

[wiffleball 4,517]

Man, absolutely. How Bobby Boucher hasn't made at least the college football Hall of Fame I'll never understand. 

[TBayXXXVII 1,912]

4 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Sorry you missed baseball in the 90’s. It was great. 

Nah, I saw quite a bit... I just wasn't wearing pin-stripped glasses. 

[posty 2,170]

2 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Nah, I saw quite a bit... I just wasn't wearing pin-stripped glasses. 

[Hardcore troubadour 11,005]

10 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Nah, I saw quite a bit... I just wasn't wearing pin-stripped glasses. 

Who else on those Yankee teams was roided up? Chad Curtis was, Clemens but he got there in 99 and sucked.