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The Real timschochet

How many of you conservatives here agree with DeSantis and Trump about Ukraine?

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Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump seem unified about our aid to Ukraine- we should cut it off. They offer a host of reasons: money is better spent at home, this isn’t our battle, the rest of Europe lets us do most of the heavy lifting. Etc etc etc. 

I’m curious about conservatives here: do you all agree with them on this? Is isolationism the new policy of the Republican Party? 

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/14/ron-desantis-ukraine-republican-party/11470254002/

WASHINGTON – Military aid to Ukraine has emerged as a dividing line among the Republican presidential candidates – but not necessarily between front-runners Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis.

After weeks of dodging the issue, DeSantis issued a statement this week saying Ukraine should not be a vital interest of the United States, echoing Trump's position though neither man has explicitly called for a total cut-off of aid.

"The Biden administration’s virtual 'blank check' funding of this conflict for 'as long as it takes,' without any defined objectives or accountability, distracts from our country’s most pressing challenges," DeSantis said in a carefully worded statement to Fox News host Tucker Carlson.

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Sounds to me like TimSchoschet is lying.  Both Trump and Desantis want accountability and objectives instead of just handing out $27 billion. 

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1 minute ago, JustinCharge said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/14/ron-desantis-ukraine-republican-party/11470254002/

WASHINGTON – Military aid to Ukraine has emerged as a dividing line among the Republican presidential candidates – but not necessarily between front-runners Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis.

After weeks of dodging the issue, DeSantis issued a statement this week saying Ukraine should not be a vital interest of the United States, echoing Trump's position though neither man has explicitly called for a total cut-off of aid.

"The Biden administration’s virtual 'blank check' funding of this conflict for 'as long as it takes,' without any defined objectives or accountability, distracts from our country’s most pressing challenges," DeSantis said in a carefully worded statement to Fox News host Tucker Carlson.

“Should not be a vital interest” means to me cutting off aid, no matter the attempt to prevaricate. But in any event do conservatives here agree with the statement that aiding Ukraine should not be a vital interest of the USA? 

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2 minutes ago, JustinCharge said:

Sounds to me like TimSchoschet is lying.  Both Trump and Desantis want accountability and objectives instead of just handing out $27 billion. 

Accountability and “not in our vital interests” are two very different things. Also what evidence is there that we’re not getting accountability? 

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2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Accountability and “not in our vital interests” are two very different things. Also what evidence is there that we’re not getting accountability? 

the MSM should simply be pressing on getting the Biden admin on details on where $27 billion is going.   Considering the accusations of money laundering with the Bidens, its very important.

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See my own support for Biden’s Ukraine policy has nothing to do with liberalism- I view this as defense of the west, and our national security. This is the sort of thing that Republicans used to be firm about, so it saddens me to see the new isolationism. 

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2 minutes ago, JustinCharge said:

the MSM should simply be pressing on getting the Biden admin on details on where $27 billion is going.   Considering the accusations of money laundering with the Bidens, its very important.

The big mystery here is that you think it’s a big mystery. The MSM has reported where the money is going, at length and in much detail. Most of it is military aid, some is humanitarian. Here’s a BBC report: 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64656301.amp

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8 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump seem unified about our aid to Ukraine- we should cut it off. They offer a host of reasons: money is better spent at home, this isn’t our battle, the rest of Europe lets us do most of the heavy lifting. Etc etc etc. 

I’m curious about conservatives here: do you all agree with them on this? Is isolationism the new policy of the Republican Party? 

MAGAs won't accept the horrific fallout for the rest of the world if Russia wins this thing.  They'd whine when inflation skyrockets again and renew putting those stupid Biden "I did this! That was me!" sticker on gas pumps and elsewhere. They can't accept that putting America first means being a political, economic, philanthropic and military player on the world stage.

Otherwise, crap like what Russia is doing just goes unchecked and makes the world a more dangerous place, particularly for the United States.

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I have no interest in supporting the military industrial complex. For ever the left has been against this. What the hell happened to them?

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I am not a fan of appeasement.  Not only do I think the western allies need to oppose Russian expansionism in this instance I think we aught to support taking the war to Russia.  Russia has no disincentives to continuing as their cities and infrastructure are in no way involved.  Until they really start to feel the impacts of strikes in their county they have no reason to relent.  The Ukraine is nothing more than a training range for them.  They shoot off their weapons and then retire to the safety of their borders.  Its a wargame, not a war in the homeland.

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Just now, Pimpadeaux said:

MAGAs won't accept the horrific fallout for the rest of the world if Russia wins this thing.  They'd whine when inflation skyrockets again and renew putting those stupid Biden "I did this! That was me!" sticker on gas pumps and elsewhere. They can't accept that putting America first means being a political, economic, philanthropic and military player on the world stage.

Otherwise, crap like what Russia is doing just goes unchecked and makes the world a more dangerous place, particularly for the United States.

Exactly right, and these latest comments by DeSantis can’t just be dismissed as politics. Putin is reading this stuff and thinking that if he can just hang on until next year, if the Republicans win they will cut off aid. 
 

It’s sort of similar to the Confederacy believing that if they could just hold out in Atlanta  the fall of 1864, Lincoln would lose the election and then McClellan would make a peace settlement. 

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2 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

I have no interest in supporting the military industrial complex. For ever the left has been against this. What the hell happened to them?

Oh they’re still around. If Bernie had been elected do you think he would have supported Ukraine? I have my doubts. 

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2 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

I have no interest in supporting the military industrial complex. For ever the left has been against this. What the hell happened to them?

You don't understand what the left is.  They are not against the military.  They are not for the military.  Their goal is to establish a communist dictatorship.  Whatever position gets them closer to that goal is fine.  They don't care if they are hypocrites and liars to achieve it.

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Just now, iam90sbaby said:

Don't care, but we should stop giving money to Israel 

I care about $27 billion. 

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10 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

The big mystery here is that you think it’s a big mystery. The MSM has reported where the money is going, at length and in much detail. Most of it is military aid, some is humanitarian. Here’s a BBC report: 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64656301.amp

Your article is useless propoganda tripe.   But we all know that's all you care about.  Someone to rub your belly and tell you it's all good.  Here is a much better article that details the concerns some have with Ukraine:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/02/19/oversight-ukraine-russia-military-aid/11271555002/

And for the record, I believe we should be helping Ukraine.  I ALSO believe we should know how our money/arms are being spent/used.  You should too.

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5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Oh they’re still around. If Bernie had been elected do you think he would have supported Ukraine? I have my doubts. 

You would be wrong as usual 

 

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6 minutes ago, JustinCharge said:

You don't understand what the left is.  They are not against the military.  They are not for the military.  Their goal is to establish a communist dictatorship.  Whatever position gets them closer to that goal is fine.  They don't care if they are hypocrites and liars to achieve it.

I understand the left perfectly they are totalitarians

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With the polling going the way it is, GOP voters will be fully against continuing to fund without at least vastly improved oversight on the cash going in long before the election.  They will need to get on the right side of that at some point.  Move too early to call for increased oversight and they risk that future events will make the war much worse and push GOP voters toward more funding.  Move too late and it makes the candidate look like they are not authentic and just governing by sticking their finger in the air and gauging the political winds.

But that's where Rand Paul comes into play.   He's been against this from the start.  If GOP support collapses, Paul becomes a huge threat to win the nomination because he will gain huge credibility for being correct first and he will able to cut Desantis and Trump down for being late to the party.

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I agree with their stance on Ukraine. I wish they felt the same way about drone strikes all over the ME and Asia. The “money is better spent at home” crowd never seems to mention that. 

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So basically the 2024 GOP field has Paul taking the antiwar GOP vote, you have lesser candidates firmly planted in the prowar vote, and Desantis and Trump are hanging in the middle. This issue is likely where the nomination will be decided. 

There are 3 options:

1. cut off funding: Rand Paul
2. more oversight and accountability for more funding:  DeSantis, Trump
3. pro war: pretty much everyone else in the GOP pool of candidates

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5 minutes ago, Strike said:

Your article is useless propoganda tripe.   But we all know that's all you care about.  Someone to rub your belly and tell you it's all good.  Here is a much better article that details the concerns some have with Ukraine:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/02/19/oversight-ukraine-russia-military-aid/11271555002/

And for the record, I believe we should be helping Ukraine.  I ALSO believe we should know how our money/arms are being spent/used.  You should too.

It’s kind of a silly argument IMO. You know as well as I do that when this amount of money is spent, whether for military or other purposes, there’s going to be some corruption. That’s just reality. 
 

I don’t mind politicians demanding accountability; they’re supposed to. I DO mind them using corruption as a reason to cut off aid and thats where the current Republican Party seems to be heading. 

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3 minutes ago, MDC said:

I agree with their stance on Ukraine. I wish they felt the same way about drone strikes all over the ME and Asia. The “money is better spent at home” crowd never seems to mention that. 

it doesnt really matter where the voters stand today.  the thing is trying to determine where voters stand about a year from now on Super Tuesday.

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I voted for Trump twice, but I'm done with that baffoon. DeSantis better change his Ukraine tone or he won't get my vote either.

I haven't voted Democrat in 3 decades. But this could do it. Stinks that Biden's domestic policies are garbage. Shows how important the Ukraine situation is to me.

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It is only money...  The US debt is so large now, $27b is nothing...

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Just now, GobbleDog said:

Stinks that Biden's domestic policies are garbage. 

His foreign policies are garbage as well...  

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4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It’s kind of a silly argument IMO. You know as well as I do that when this amount of money is spent, whether for military or other purposes, there’s going to be some corruption. That’s just reality. 
 

Moving the goalposts as usual.  The post I replied to said:

Quote

The MSM has reported where the money is going, at length and in much detail.

If we know where the money is going, in great detail, we can prevent the bulk of the corruption.  The link I posted has quotes from, you know, actual people and discusses an Inspector's General report.  You know, actual data as I always say helps form my opinions.  And that link very clearly supports the FACT that we DON'T know where all the money is going.  Oh, and for the record, my link is from a MSM source.   So, as usual, you're 100% wrong.  I can see why you moved the goalposts AGAIN. 

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I makes sense to support Ukraine.  China is watching. Moreover, Russia is demonstrating that they will push and push, sure they avoided Trump, but when we have weak leaders they will take and attack. I am fine with the support, and happy to see other nations stepping up as well. 

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5 minutes ago, GobbleDog said:

I voted for Trump twice, but I'm done with that baffoon. DeSantis better change his Ukraine tone or he won't get my vote either.

I haven't voted Democrat in 3 decades. But this could do it. Stinks that Biden's domestic policies are garbage. Shows how important the Ukraine situation is to me.

Tim Scott, Mike Pompeo, Mike Pence and Nikki Haley are fully pro war.  

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I've been supportive of funding the war and have few criticisms of the way Biden is handling it because Russia had no business invading Ukraine

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5 minutes ago, JustinCharge said:

Tim Scott, Mike Pompeo, Mike Pence and Nikki Haley are fully pro war.  

Yeah, I did hear Pence talk about that. Seriously doubt he can win the Republican nomination though.

Also, ain't voting for no woman... other than the brilliant Condoleezza Rice, but she's too smart to run.

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Here's the actual polling going on.  Only 32% of republicans support more funding and weapons for Ukraine.  63% of republicans do not. Also here's a Gallup poll showing the split.  If these numbers just dip 10% more towards the antiwar camp over the next year, the candidate will struggle maintaining a pro war posture imo.  I don't think there really way any a serious GOP candidate can support this war with the polling looking like this.  Even independents look more like the GOP respondents than the democrat respondents.

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meetthepressblog/gop-presidential-candidate-split-ukraine-mirrors-poll-divide-rcna74870

 

 

Polling from January found 49% of adults saying that Congress should provide more funding and weapons to Ukraine and 47% who said Congress should not.

But while two-thirds of Democrats supported more funding, just one-third of Republicans agreed. Thirty-two percent of Republicans supported more funding and weapons for Ukraine, with 63% saying they did not.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Strike said:

Moving the goalposts as usual.  The post I replied to said:

If we know where the money is going, in great detail, we can prevent the bulk of the corruption.  The link I posted has quotes from, you know, actual people and discusses an Inspector's General report.  You know, actual data as I always say helps form my opinions.  And that link very clearly supports the FACT that we DON'T know where all the money is going.  Oh, and for the record, my link is from a MSM source.   So, as usual, you're 100% wrong.  I can see why you moved the goalposts AGAIN. 

Yes I was wrong. Seems like a minor point to be wrong about. No I’m not trying to move the goalposts. 
You spend a lot of time trying to prove me wrong. Sometimes you succeed, but even when you do it’s not very interesting: I’m sure it bores the hell out of anyone reading this. What’s more important is the discussion about whether we should continue to support Ukraine and if DeSantis and Trump’s most recent comments are of concern. You and others can defend those comments by claiming that they don’t want to cut off aid to Ukraine, they only want the spending to be more accountable. But that’s not really accurate IMO. By saying that Ukraine is not in our vital interests they are essentially saying cut off the aid. 

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1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yes I was wrong. Seems like a minor point to be wrong about. No I’m not trying to move the goalposts. 
You spend a lot of time trying to prove me wrong. Sometimes you succeed, but even when you do it’s not very interesting: I’m sure it bores the hell out of anyone reading this. What’s more important is the discussion about whether we should continue to support Ukraine and if DeSantis and Trump’s most recent comments are of concern. You and others can defend those comments by claiming that they don’t want to cut off aid to Ukraine, they only want the spending to be more accountable. But that’s not really accurate IMO. By saying that Ukraine is not in our vital interests they are essentially saying cut off the aid. 

I haven't defended anyone's comments.  I specifically said I support giving aid to Ukraine.  I am closer to Gobbledog's stance on Ukraine than any Republican.  That doesn't mean I can't share their concerns with wasting money and potentially giving our tech to Russia.  Your brain really seems to have trouble focusing and keeping issues separate.  You do it a lot.  You mischaracterize things you read, like the article you posted that I took issue with, or other people's posts.  It's how I know you're nowhere near as intelligent as you think you are.  It's important because you thought the article you posted showed how our money was being spent in Ukraine.  How an intelligent person could come to that conclusion from that article is beyond me, but here you are.  It makes it very difficult to have a discussion with you because you think you have evidence to support your position when you actually don't.  I keep pointing it out to you hoping you'll learn to be more discerning of the material you seek out but it doesn't seem to work.  You repeatedly show your ignorance on topic after topic.

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1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Exactly right, and these latest comments by DeSantis can’t just be dismissed as politics. Putin is reading this stuff and thinking that if he can just hang on until next year, if the Republicans win they will cut off aid. 
 

It’s sort of similar to the Confederacy believing that if they could just hold out in Atlanta  the fall of 1864, Lincoln would lose the election and then McClellan would make a peace settlement. 

That very well could have happened, too. MAGA is this country's most divisive element, drawing uncompromising, unsustainable lines in the sand and making our country look weak in the process. I have no doubt that Putin seriously underestimated our reaction to his invasion. He can't comprehend that our whole country was built on being a divided bunch of fockups.

Russia is going to be so weak after this is all over, from an economic, political and military standpoint. 

I still think this thing ends with a bullet in Putin's pumpkin head or him going out King Joffrey-style.

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If there’s no corruption then why did Zelensky get rid of all those high ranking members of his government for corruption? 

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1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump seem unified about our aid to Ukraine- we should cut it off. They offer a host of reasons: money is better spent at home, this isn’t our battle, the rest of Europe lets us do most of the heavy lifting. Etc etc etc. 

I’m curious about conservatives here: do you all agree with them on this? Is isolationism the new policy of the Republican Party? 

It is better spent at home.   This isn't new.  I hope Russia fails miserably and they try to overthrow Putin.  But many people for decades have said that we don't need to police the world.  

Is Ukraine apart of NATO?

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