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Guns Guns Guns

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On 5/27/2023 at 1:27 PM, 5-Points said:

Then why doesn't it read "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed?"

Because it wasn't about The State. It was about A state  A state of freedom. Therefore the PEOPLE were guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms to secure their state of freedom. Be it from foreign invaders or a tyrannical government. 

The entire BoR is about guaranteeing the rights of PEOPLE and restricting government authority. 

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with debating on if we as a country should continue to have the access we do to weapons like that.  Your point would apply to an all out gun ban for individuals, but you lose me a bit when you seem to be trying to claim an AR ban would remove people's right to self and home defense.  

 

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10 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with debating on if we as a country should continue to have the access we do to weapons like that.  Your point would apply to an all out gun ban for individuals, but you lose me a bit when you seem to be trying to claim an AR ban would remove people's right to self and home defense.  

 

There's no debate. We should continue to have access to weapons like that. That was the whole intent of the 2A. 

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8 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

There's no debate. We should continue to have access to weapons like that. That was the whole intent of the 2A. 

We can agree on some part of the debate, but I don't agree with you there.  The "whole intent" of the 2nd doesn't revolve around a specific weapon like an AR.  It doesn't remove your right to defend yourself by saying you can't legally use an AR to do so.  

Imo we need more restrictions, but don't think banning a specific gun is going to do much anyway.  It would be more of a symbolic move than one than would save many lives.  

 

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11 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

We can agree on some part of the debate, but I don't agree with you there.  The "whole intent" of the 2nd doesn't revolve around a specific weapon like an AR.  It doesn't remove your right to defend yourself by saying you can't legally use an AR to do so.  

Imo we need more restrictions, but don't think banning a specific gun is going to do much anyway.  It would be more of a symbolic move than one than would save many lives.  

 

The 2A wasn't about self defense. Self defense is a natural right. The Founders wouldn't have wasted their time stipulating something so obvious. 

The 2A was about defense of liberty and guaranteeing the right of the people to keep and bear the tools with which to do so. 

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49 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

The 2A wasn't about self defense. Self defense is a natural right. The Founders wouldn't have wasted their time stipulating something so obvious. 

The 2A was about defense of liberty and guaranteeing the right of the people to keep and bear the tools with which to do so. 

Good distinction on the first part, thanks.   We are still back to the part where that doesn't mean any tool to do so, at least IMO.   I get that you and your ilk fall back to the position that you are also needing weapons to defend against a tyrannical government.   But when we have a government with tools far greater than ours, that line of thinking is a dangerous one.  I get what you are saying about having that right, but I just pointing out that in 2023, I think you are being a bit silly clinging to the notion that your AR is defending you against your government.   

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48 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Good distinction on the first part, thanks.   We are still back to the part where that doesn't mean any tool to do so, at least IMO.   I get that you and your ilk fall back to the position that you are also needing weapons to defend against a tyrannical government.   But when we have a government with tools far greater than ours, that line of thinking is a dangerous one.  I get what you are saying about having that right, but I just pointing out that in 2023, I think you are being a bit silly clinging to the notion that your AR is defending you against your government.   

We just spent 20 years fighting cavemen with AK's and IED's to a draw. The ROE would be much more restrictive on our own soil. The consequences for a mistake on their part would be severe.  

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1 hour ago, BuckSwope said:

Good distinction on the first part, thanks.   We are still back to the part where that doesn't mean any tool to do so, at least IMO.   I get that you and your ilk fall back to the position that you are also needing weapons to defend against a tyrannical government.   But when we have a government with tools far greater than ours, that line of thinking is a dangerous one.  I get what you are saying about having that right, but I just pointing out that in 2023, I think you are being a bit silly clinging to the notion that your AR is defending you against your government.   

Ah, you're in the "we have nukes" dishipt line of thinking. Great 

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6 hours ago, shorepatrol said:

Ah, you're in the "we have nukes" dishipt line of thinking. Great 

No, I'm just also not in the "our gubments gonna git us" line of thinking either.  Mostly I think that's something people say so they can have the guns they want, but very few truly believe that.   

You are also not going to catch me advocating for any gun bans either - it's not going to happen and wouldn't be effective.  I just usually find gun owners to be full of sh1t when they talk about things like this or why they "need" 30 different weapons at their house.    Instead of just flat out saying it's because the constitution and law allows it,  and it's fun as hell, they dance around "well the Founding Fathers certainly meant for us to have these weapons that none of them could have dreamed of" as if any of us really know how they would react in 2023.  

Personally, I don't care that those guns exist or people have access to them, I would just make it MUCH harder for people to obtain.   I find gun ban people irrational, and I find most gun owners on these boards irrational too.  

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1 hour ago, BuckSwope said:

No, I'm just also not in the "our gubments gonna git us" line of thinking either.  Mostly I think that's something people say so they can have the guns they want, but very few truly believe that.   

You are also not going to catch me advocating for any gun bans either - it's not going to happen and wouldn't be effective.  I just usually find gun owners to be full of sh1t when they talk about things like this or why they "need" 30 different weapons at their house.    Instead of just flat out saying it's because the constitution and law allows it,  and it's fun as hell, they dance around "well the Founding Fathers certainly meant for us to have these weapons that none of them could have dreamed of" as if any of us really know how they would react in 2023.  

Personally, I don't care that those guns exist or people have access to them, I would just make it MUCH harder for people to obtain.   I find gun ban people irrational, and I find most gun owners on these boards irrational too.  

The rationale for restricting guns is simple, and based on data: nations with such restrictions have drastically lower rates of gun violence than America does. 

Perhaps you consider those in favor of gun restrictions irrational due to the practicality of restricting guns. I can understand that feeling since we’ve already got millions more guns than people in America. But just because something is impractical doesn’t make one irrational for trying to come up with a way to make it practical.

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19 minutes ago, dogcows said:

The rationale for restricting guns is simple, and based on data: nations with such restrictions have drastically lower rates of gun violence than America does. 

Perhaps you consider those in favor of gun restrictions irrational due to the practicality of restricting guns. I can understand that feeling since we’ve already got millions more guns than people in America. But just because something is impractical doesn’t make one irrational for trying to come up with a way to make it practical.

I usually use my words specifically.  "Ban", not restrictions is what I find irrational and ineffective.   Total gun ban, maybe, but it's also never happening for a variety of reasons, so not a realistic solution.  Just banning ARs isn't going to do much either.  I don't know a category of gun death where that platform is used the majority of time, so again- an irrational solution IMO. 

I said in an above post I was for limiting access to said guns, not banning them.  

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More gun = more killings. 

Ain't rocket science.  And just lol at the high school dropout Jethrows thinking they could stop the gubmint from doing anything with their stupid guns.

How'd that work out during Covid which most of the same crowd thinks was a scam? 

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18 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

More gun = more killings. 

Ain't rocket science.  And just lol at the high school dropout Jethrows thinking they could stop the gubmint from doing anything with their stupid guns.

How'd that work out during Covid which most of the same crowd thinks was a scam? 

Too simplistic here.   100 people owning 30 guns each is different than 3000 people each having a gun.   The # guns isn't the end all be all piece of info. 

At the end of the day, as a country our solution to someone about to enter a building with guns is to have more people inside with guns.  That's where we are messed up, imo.  I don't care if it's an AR or a bag of handguns, I want steps in place to stop that person before they get there, not just planning for a shootout when they do. 

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11 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Too simplistic here.   100 people owning 30 guns each is different than 3000 people each having a gun.   The # guns isn't the end all be all piece of info. 

At the end of the day, as a country our solution to someone about to enter a building with guns is to have more people inside with guns.  That's where we are messed up, imo.  I don't care if it's an AR or a bag of handguns, I want steps in place to stop that person before they get there, not just planning for a shootout when they do. 

Good luck with that.  Many conservative dudes in this country can't get it up without fondling their massive collection of killing tools first. 

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1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

Good luck with that.  Many conservative dudes in this country can't get it up without fondling their massive collection of killing tools first. 

Good luck with what? 

I guess good luck to you framing gun owners as gun fondling wackos.  

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1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

Good luck with that.  Many conservative dudes in this country can't get it up without fondling their massive collection of killing tools first. 

So owning guns is erectile disfunction treatment in your eyes? Wow. Focking idiot.

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1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

More gun = more killings. 

Ain't rocket science.  And just lol at the high school dropout Jethrows thinking they could stop the gubmint from doing anything with their stupid guns.

How'd that work out during Covid which most of the same crowd thinks was a scam? 

Every country in the top 10 for murder rate per capita has a massive amount of gun control or has banned guns all together.

You're a good little bot.

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26 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

Every country in the top 10 for murder rate per capita has a massive amount of gun control or has banned guns all together.

You're a good little bot.

Do you believe if we had the same amount of gun control as the countries you reference we would have similar murder rates per capita? 

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52 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Do you believe if we had the same amount of gun control as the countries you reference we would have similar murder rates per capita? 

As we do now? More than likely yes.

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2 hours ago, iam90sbaby said:

As we do now? More than likely yes.

Gotcha.  Really disagree here, but was curious your take. 

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5 hours ago, BuckSwope said:

I usually use my words specifically.  "Ban", not restrictions is what I find irrational and ineffective.   Total gun ban, maybe, but it's also never happening for a variety of reasons, so not a realistic solution.  Just banning ARs isn't going to do much either.  I don't know a category of gun death where that platform is used the majority of time, so again- an irrational solution IMO. 

I said in an above post I was for limiting access to said guns, not banning them.  

We pretty much agree then

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The only thing that can stop a bad 2-year old with a gun is a good 2-year-old with a gun, amirite? We need to give guns to all the good 2-year-olds to stop the evil ones from going on murder sprees?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pregnant-mother-killed-toddler-gun-accident_n_6493658be4b0aec6b7fe3794

But please spew out some more bullshit about “it’s the people not the guns” or “pro-life” when this killed a pregnant woman and the fetus. F guns, and F the NRA. Spew a bunch of crap about “mental health” too. Clearly this toddler was in his “terrible twos” and we just didn’t care for his mental health enough.,.. right?

Just to show how completely focking moronic people are when it comes to their guns…

Quote

According to the news release, the Ilgs told police they kept the handgun inside a nightstand in the primary bedroom. The home featured “numerous” child safety features, including a baby gate at every doorway, according to police.
 

Yeah, you’ll go to all the trouble of putting in baby gates and I bet they even put those plastic caps on the low-lying electric outlets. But they don’t see a gun as something dangerous because their brains are addled with constant pro-gun propaganda. All the pro-gun lobbyists should be ashamed of themselves.

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9 hours ago, dogcows said:

And yet another kid shot to death by another kid. A 7-year-old shot a 5-year-old.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-year-old-child-fatally-shoots-5-year-old-eastern-kentucky-rcna90227

In Kentucky, the law doesn’t hold the parents responsible in such an instance. Appalling.

Looks like it was an accident.  Could just as easily been a knife, car, drowning or any other random accident that results in death.

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21 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Looks like it was an accident.  Could just as easily been a knife, car, drowning or any other random accident that results in death.

Another gun humper apparently loves guns more than kids. This was 100% preventable, as the kid would be alive if the parents didn’t leave a gun around.

I’d love to know how many kids accidentally die from knives each year. Let me know if you find even one.

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4 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Another gun humper apparently loves guns more than kids. This was 100% preventable, and the kid would be alive if the parents didn’t leave a gun around.

I’d love to know how many kids accidentally die from knives each year. Let me know if you find even one.

I believe there are only about 500 people who die of accidental gunshots and children are just a portion of it.  The numbers have consistently decreased as well.  The guns are not the issue, it's the human responsibility.  I doubt you're going to find anyone argue with you on safe gun storage, especially with children in the house.

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8 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Another gun humper apparently loves guns more than kids. This was 100% preventable, as the kid would be alive if the parents didn’t leave a gun around.

I’d love to know how many kids accidentally die from knives each year. Let me know if you find even one.

No accident. And growing...

Abortions worldwide this year:

21,048,691

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1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I believe there are only about 500 people who die of accidental gunshots and children are just a portion of it.  The numbers have consistently decreased as well.  The guns are not the issue, it's the human responsibility.  I doubt you're going to find anyone argue with you on safe gun storage, especially with children in the house.

Except every single GOP lawmaker, that is. They refuse to pass laws mandating safe storage. Kentucky doesn’t even hold parents responsible when a kid gets a gun they negligently left lying around. You’re right that there are reasonable gun safety rules that almost everybody supports. Too bad the politicians in one party refuse to implement any of them.

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3 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Except every single GOP lawmaker, that is. They refuse to pass laws mandating safe storage. Kentucky doesn’t even hold parents responsible when a kid gets a gun they negligently left lying around. You’re right that there are reasonable gun safety rules that almost everybody supports. Too bad the politicians in one party refuse to implement any of them.

We just had a high profile unsafe gun storage violation that didn't even rate to charge the individual in a state that has storage laws.  

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Two children die every day from accidental poisoning.  Why don't we hear more about that?  Where are the strictly enforced laws on locking up medications?

Look,  accidents happen that result in death every day.  It sucks but it's a part of life and always has been.  Most of the time it can be prevented and many times there's nothing that could be done.  All we can do is try to be responsible in order to prevent accidents.  There's a reason most accidental deaths are not made into a big deal nationally, because the majority of us have accepted that it's just a part of life and they can't be stopped.

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19 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Except every single GOP lawmaker, that is. They refuse to pass laws mandating safe storage. Kentucky doesn’t even hold parents responsible when a kid gets a gun they negligently left lying around. You’re right that there are reasonable gun safety rules that almost everybody supports. Too bad the politicians in one party refuse to implement any of them.

I'm sure all the politicians in one party have boners over Hunter skating on a Felony gun violation.......you know, the party that wants common sense gun laws. 

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16 minutes ago, Nomad99 said:

I'm sure all the politicians in one party have boners over Hunter skating on a Felony gun violation.......you know, the party that wants common sense gun laws. 

Most Democrats don’t care about Hunter one way or another. Right-wing outlets have had wall-to-wall coverage of the guy for years though. My belief is that drug addicts definitely shouldn’t be allowed to buy guns.

Is giving a person who did so 2 years of probation, contingent on not doing drugs again a fair punishment? Maybe, maybe not, but these types of diversion programs are the norm when the system deals with drug addicts these days.

Interesting note on this particular law: it’s been challenged in court and is likely to be ruled a violation of the current SCOTUS’ interpretation of the 2nd amendment. I disagree, but that’s how far we’ve gone with this court. Drug addicts buying guns is protected by the constitution!!!

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43 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Ban alcohol!!! It kills people. :mad:

21 to buy alcohol, 18 to buy guns. America!

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59 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Two children die every day from accidental poisoning.  Why don't we hear more about that?  Where are the strictly enforced laws on locking up medications?

Look,  accidents happen that result in death every day.  It sucks but it's a part of life and always has been.  Most of the time it can be prevented and many times there's nothing that could be done.  All we can do is try to be responsible in order to prevent accidents.  There's a reason most accidental deaths are not made into a big deal nationally, because the majority of us have accepted that it's just a part of life and they can't be stopped.

You lame whataboutisms are lame.

Guns are designed to kill.  That's their purpose.  To try to equate a gun killing to a medicine or car is beyond disingenuous.

Gun nuts simply are fine with thousands of kids killing them each year with guns whether by accident or by suicide.  The weird need to have their guns is the most important fact.

Most of the country has never touched a gun and we get along just fine.

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7 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

You lame whataboutisms are lame.

Guns are designed to kill.  That's their purpose.  To try to equate a gun killing to a medicine or car is beyond disingenuous.

Gun nuts simply are fine with thousands of kids killing them each year with guns whether by accident or by suicide.  The weird need to have their guns is the most important fact.

Most of the country has never touched a gun and we get along just fine.

Guns are a part of American life, get use to it.  Why is it so easy for you to ignore all other preventable deaths and focus so hard on just guns?  It's obvious you have a bias.

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16 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Guns are a part of American life, get use to it.  Why is it so easy for you to ignore all other preventable deaths and focus so hard on just guns?  It's obvious you have a bias.

Accidental deaths caused by tools whose purpose is not to kill are far different than accidental deaths by a tool whose sole purpose is to kill.

Without guns in this country we'd have far far fewer deaths.  Both homicides and accidental.  That's a fact.

And I get that guns are an unfortunate big part of some americans lives.  That won't change but some reasonable restrictions and things like gun registration are always always always opposed by the right.

So the additional killings will continue and likely worsen.  But gun guys can have their 40 round clips and bullets that make swiss cheese out of flesh.

Good times!

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12 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Accidental deaths caused by tools whose purpose is not to kill are far different than accidental deaths by a tool whose sole purpose is to kill.

Without guns in this country we'd have far far fewer deaths.  Both homicides and accidental.  That's a fact.

And I get that guns are an unfortunate big part of some americans lives.  That won't change but some reasonable restrictions and things like gun registration are always always always opposed by the right.

So the additional killings will continue and likely worsen.  But gun guys can have their 40 round clips and bullets that make swiss cheese out of flesh.

Good times!

Guns are an incredibly small part of my life.  I have guns and rarely use them.  They are all for hunting and I don't really hunt.  I think our right to own guns is important though.

We have a people problem, not a gun problem.

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3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Guns are an incredibly small part of my life.  I have guns and rarely use them.  They are all for hunting and I don't really hunt.  I think our right to own guns is important though.

We have a people problem, not a gun problem.

America has the most guns, by far, compared to any other nation. We have the most gun deaths, by far, compared to any other nation.

These are undeniable facts. Everything else is spin.

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