Charlie Hustled to the Death Pool

[jerryskids 5,905]

Pete Rose dead at 83

Quote

Pete Rose, all-time MLB hits leader, dies at 83

• ESPN

Sep 30, 2024, 07:30 PM ET

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Pete Rose, the all-time hits leader who was banned from baseball for betting on the sport, has died at age 83, the medical examiner in Clark County, Nevada, confirmed to ABC News on Monday.

"Charlie Hustle," as he was known for his relentless playing style, will fall short in his bid to make the Hall of Fame during his lifetime. Only the gambling prevented him from getting in as his accomplishments on the field are unquestionably Hall of Fame worthy.

Rose's 4,256 hits are 67 more than Ty Cobb's career mark for the most in MLB history. Rose also played in the most games and had the most at-bats in history. In a playing career that spanned from 1963 to 1986, Rose won three batting titles and led the league in hits seven times. He was Rookie of the Year in 1963, a 17-time All-Star and the National League MVP in 1973.

His best seasons came as a member of the Cincinnati Reds' "Big Red Machine," which won back-to-back titles in 1975 and 1976. Rose was the World Series MVP in '75. In 1978, Rose captivated the baseball world as he chased Joe DiMaggio's record 56-game hitting streak. He eventually tied the NL mark of 44 games, but that's where it ended.

Even before the gambling scandal broke, Rose was a polarizing figure. His hardnose style was loved by fans of his team but not appreciated by all. Nothing summed that dynamic up more than the 1970 All-Star Game when Rose scored the winning run by barreling over Cleveland catcher Ray Fosse at the plate. Even though All-Star Games then were taken more seriously than they are today, many still took exception to the play.

Even those that didn't love him, however, had to admit that Rose was one of the best players ever -- a surefire Hall of Famer. But that all unraveled in 1989. MLB conducted an investigation into rumors that Rose -- who was managing the Reds -- had bet on baseball. John Dowd's report concluded that he had placed wagers on baseball games, including on his own team.

After a legal battle in which Rose denied ever betting on baseball, he finally relented and accepted a lifetime ban from commissioner Bart Giammatti. Shortly after the ban went into effect, Rose was also convicted of tax evasion and spent a number of months in prison.

Many believe Rose accepted the ban in hopes of successfully applying for reinstatement, but that never happened. Though he applied many times, the most recent coming in 2015, he was always rejected. The argument against reinstatement often led with the fact that Rose never admitted wrongdoing. He finally did in a 2004 autobiography, where he admitted to betting on baseball, including Reds games, though he said he never bet against his team.

Baseball did make an exception to the ban in 1999, allowing Rose to take the field as a member of MLB's All-Century Team in a ceremony at Turner Field.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/41538454/pete-rose-all-mlb-hits-leader-dies-83

[Strike 4,510]

Eh.  Dude disrespected the game. 

[bostonlager 2,661]

[cmh6476 874]

Needs to be in the hall now

[posty 2,433]

Just now, cmh6476 said:

Needs to be in the hall now

Only after Shoeless Joe gets in and Pete waits just as long and Jackson has…

[thegeneral 2,232]

In the Bob Knight mold of complicated assshole who was also a maestro. Riddled with scumbag tendencies but absolute stud at his craft. RIP

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,923]

Now we won’t have to hear about it starting in about a year. 
 

I’ll refrain from the negatives today

[jerryskids 5,905]

3 minutes ago, Strike said:

Eh.  Dude disrespected the game. 

I just explained this to my wife, who is a huge sports fan.  

Wife:  "But if he bet on his team, is it that bad of a thing?"

Me:  "Yeah, because as a manager, the nature of his bets could have influenced how he managed lineups, relievers, replacement players, etc."

That being said, it's sad that the HOF can't induct him as a player-only, and have some statement about him being a POS as a manager.  There are many arguments about who belongs in a HOF:  one I like the most is:  can you tell the story of the sport without him?  Undeniably, the answer is "no" for Rose, on both fronts.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,923]

2 minutes ago, cmh6476 said:

Needs to be in the hall now

No

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,923]

Just now, jerryskids said:

I just explained this to my wife, who is a huge sports fan.  

Wife:  "But if he bet on his team, is it that bad of a thing?"

Me:  "Yeah, because as a manager, the nature of his bets could have influenced how he managed lineups, relievers, replacement players, etc."

That being said, it's sad that the HOF can't induct him as a player-only, and have some statement about him being a POS as a manager.  There are many arguments about who belongs in a HOF:  one I like the most is:  can you tell the story of the sport without him?  Undeniably, the answer is "no" for Rose, on both fronts.

But remember he was the last of the player managers. And likely bet on games during that time as well

[jerryskids 5,905]

1 minute ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

But remember he was the last of the player managers. And likely bet on games during that time as well

Fair.  But I don't think that relatively small overlap disqualifies him as a player.  Even in the dual role, his personnel decisions (including regarding himself) were as Rose the Manager. 

 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,923]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Fair.  But I don't think that relatively small overlap disqualifies him as a player.  Even in the dual role, his personnel decisions (including regarding himself) were as Rose the Manager. 

 

I get it but I’ll never agree 

[seafoam1 2,399]

4 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I just explained this to my wife, who is a huge sports fan.  

Wife:  "But if he bet on his team, is it that bad of a thing?"

Me:  "Yeah, because as a manager, the nature of his bets could have influenced how he managed lineups, relievers, replacement players, etc."

That being said, it's sad that the HOF can't induct him as a player-only, and have some statement about him being a POS as a manager.  There are many arguments about who belongs in a HOF:  one I like the most is:  can you tell the story of the sport without him?  Undeniably, the answer is "no" for Rose, on both fronts.

It was proven he only bet on his own team as a manager. He's guilty of betting, but give him a break. They didn't make today's kind of money back then.

[lod001 1,313]

That's alltime hit king & Hall Of Famer, Pete Rose. Fuk the baseball HOF.

bummer.

[thegeneral 2,232]

2 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

It was proven he only bet on his own team as a manager. He's guilty of betting, but give him a break. They didn't make today's kind of money back then.

He bet as a player as well. He lied about all this for a long time. 

[Strike 4,510]

8 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I just explained this to my wife, who is a huge sports fan.  

Wife:  "But if he bet on his team, is it that bad of a thing?"

Me:  "Yeah, because as a manager, the nature of his bets could have influenced how he managed lineups, relievers, replacement players, etc."

That being said, it's sad that the HOF can't induct him as a player-only, and have some statement about him being a POS as a manager.  There are many arguments about who belongs in a HOF:  one I like the most is:  can you tell the story of the sport without him?  Undeniably, the answer is "no" for Rose, on both fronts.

I get your stance.  I'm just pretty much ambivalent and Meh when I think of Pete Rose.  I know he was a great player, but he offset that by just being a doosh in general, and then disrespecting the game.  On top of that, he accepted a punishment and then whined about it for the rest of his life trying to get the game to take him back.  That's a poosey move IMO. 

I was genuinely moved when I heard that Dikembe Mutombo had passed earlier today.  Not just because he's a legend in Denver sports but because in addition to being a great basketball player he was a great human being.   Pete Rose just makes me go "Meh." 

And I don't generally p*ss in RIP threads but that's out of respect, and respect is earned.  Pete Rose doesn't have it.

[Strike 4,510]

4 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

It was proven he only bet on his own team as a manager. He's guilty of betting, but give him a break. They didn't make today's kind of money back then.

You can't prove that.  Come on.

[seafoam1 2,399]

Just now, thegeneral said:

He bet as a player as well. He lied about all this for a long time. 

The hall of fame should include all of baseball activity if it's related to one of the best players ever. He didn't use steroids and didn't throw games. proven. 

[seafoam1 2,399]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

You can't prove that.  Come on.

It has been proven . I didn't do it. 

[Strike 4,510]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

It has been proven . I didn't do it. 

You can't prove that.  Sorry. 

[thegeneral 2,232]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

The hall of fame should include all of baseball activity if it's related to one of the best players ever. He didn't use steroids and didn't throw games. proven. 

It’s one of the few rules everyone knows is a deal breaker.

He bet on games as a player and a manager - you were wrong about that. There’s no way to know what decisions were made because of this. It’s one of the things that keeps the sport from being WWF.

 

[Tree of Knowledge 1,288]

Any news on cause of death?   A friend of mine said he had been out of public eye this summer.  Possible cancer?

[seafoam1 2,399]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

You can't prove that.  Sorry. 

He was a great player who bet on himself. He broke the rules. Barry Bonds and McGuire were way worse. They actually cheated. 

[frank 2,222]

24 minutes ago, cmh6476 said:

Needs to be in the hall now

Don’t bet on it. 

[jerryskids 5,905]

5 minutes ago, Strike said:

I get your stance.  I'm just pretty much ambivalent and Meh when I think of Pete Rose.  I know he was a great player, but he offset that by just being a doosh in general, and then disrespecting the game.  On top of that, he accepted a punishment and then whined about it for the rest of his life trying to get the game to take him back.  That's a poosey move IMO. 

I was genuinely moved when I heard that Dikembe Mutombo had passed earlier today.  Not just because he's a legend in Denver sports but because in addition to being a great basketball player he was a great human being.   Pete Rose just makes me go "Meh." 

And I don't generally p*ss in RIP threads but that's out of respect, and respect is earned.  Pete Rose doesn't have it.

Fair enough.  I think I'm a little older than you (57), and at the age of 8-ish, my two best friends and I started playing wiffleball in the street for thousands of hours over the next few summers.  I was 8 in 1975, the pinnacle of the Big Red Machine.  We memorized starting lineups and pretended to be those batters for each at bat.  Rose, Morgan, Bench, Perez, Concepcion... a murderers row of awesomeness.

Basically I wax poetic back to those days.  IMO, that's kinda what the HOF is about.   

[jerryskids 5,905]

2 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

He was a great player who bet on himself. He broke the rules. Barry Bonds and McGuire were way worse. They actually cheated. 

FWIW, neither of those are in the HOF.  Bonds is another interesting conundrum, because you absolutely cannot tell the story of baseball without Bonds.  IMO there are ways to put him in, with his story, in a less-than-glowing way, so that future generations can piece together the story.

[seafoam1 2,399]

3 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

It’s one of the few rules everyone knows is a deal breaker.

He bet on games as a player and a manager - you were wrong about that. There’s no way to know what decisions were made because of this. It’s one of the things that keeps the sport from being WWF.

 

Ok. Well, if they are going to use his journals as proof he gambled, then they can only use what's in those journals as proof. And he only.bet.on his own team. They can't prove he threw games.

So yeah, he bet. But put him in the hall, and tell the story. He belongs in the HOF. 

[Strike 4,510]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Fair enough.  I think I'm a little older than you (57), and at the age of 8-ish, my two best friends and I started playing wiffleball in the street for thousands of hours over the next few summers.  I was 8 in 1975, the pinnacle of the Big Red Machine.  We memorized starting lineups and pretended to be those batters for each at bat.  Rose, Morgan, Bench, Perez, Concepcion... a murderers row of awesomeness.

Basically I wax poetic back to those days.  IMO, that's kinda what the HOF is about.   

I'm 58.  Same age as Mutombo which someone was nice enough to remind me of when I told her he had died earlier today. 

[seafoam1 2,399]

Just now, Strike said:

I'm 58.  Same age as Mutombo which someone was nice enough to remind me of when I told her he had died earlier today. 

I'm 59. So keep the faith. I made it.  

[jerryskids 5,905]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

I'm 58.  Same age as Mutombo which someone was nice enough to remind me of when I told her he had died earlier today. 

Asians age better than whiteys.  

[Strike 4,510]

4 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

FWIW, neither of those are in the HOF.  Bonds is another interesting conundrum, because you absolutely cannot tell the story of baseball without Bonds.  IMO there are ways to put him in, with his story, in a less-than-glowing way, so that future generations can piece together the story.

The "black sheep" wing of the HOF

[Alias Detective 1,285]

His betting had ZERO to do with hitting a ball and down right hustling. 
 

ROSE DESERVED TO BE IN HALL OF FAME.

[seafoam1 2,399]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

FWIW, neither of those are in the HOF.  Bonds is another interesting conundrum, because you absolutely cannot tell the story of baseball without Bonds.  IMO there are ways to put him in, with his story, in a less-than-glowing way, so that future generations can piece together the story.

Put them all in. There are WAY LESS interesting players in the HOF than those guys

 

[Strike 4,510]

Just now, jerryskids said:

Asians age better than whiteys.  

Yep.  She says we made a deal with the devil.  My mom died at 82 but probably looked 55.

[seafoam1 2,399]

1 minute ago, Alias Detective said:

His betting had ZERO to do with hitting a ball and down right hustling. 
 

ROSE DESERVED TO BE IN HALL OF FAME.

100%

[thegeneral 2,232]

3 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Ok. Well, if they are going to use his journals as proof he gambled, then they can only use what's in those journals as proof. And he only.bet.on his own team. They can't prove he threw games.

So yeah, he bet. But put him in the hall, and tell the story. He belongs in the HOF. 

Who knows what he was doing. He lied about this for so long. In any case, it doesn’t matter. You can’t gamble on games when you are in the game: All kinds of issues with this can occur. It’s fundamental to the sport. 

I grew up a couple hours from Cincinnati and saw many, many Reds games, Rose was the shlt (George Foster was my guy and then later Dave Parker and Eric Davis). 

Rose can’t be in the Hall unless there is some huge shift to putting everyone in with the various issues. All these excuses for him don’t matter. 

[Mike Honcho 4,516]

33 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

It was proven he only bet on his own team as a manager. He's guilty of betting, but give him a break. They didn't make today's kind of money back then.

It was proven he bet on his team, it was not PROVEN he didn't bet against the Reds, and Dowd himself thought Pete did.

 

DOWD HAD EVIDENCE PETE BET AGAINST REDS

Quote

The Washington D.C.-based lawyer revealed yesterday that if the investigation would have continued a little longer it would have shown the all-time hit leader not only bet on Reds’ games, but actually bet against the team he was managing.

That made another of Dowd’s disclosures yesterday all the more stunning. Dowd said by phone that he has been told that part of Rose’s reinstatement agreement would make him manager of the Reds again.

Dowd, who investigated Rose for Commissioners Peter Ueberroth and Bart Giamatti in 1989, said the time constraints to get his examination finished and try to stem a matter that was soiling the sport, forced him to stop pursuing certain avenues. Thus, the official Dowd Report states: “no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Cincinnati Reds.”

However, Dowd said he had reliable evidence that Rose indeed bet against his team and was “close” to being able to officially put it into his report, but was prevented by the need to get the report done quickly.

 

“I think that is probably right,” Dowd said when he asked if he thought Rose gambled against the Reds.

IMO, baseball wants everyone to believe that Pete didn't bet against the Reds and may have thrown games(leaving a pitcher in too long, not playing best lineups).  

[seafoam1 2,399]

2 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

It was proven he bet on his team, it was not PROVEN he didn't bet against the Reds, and Dowd himself thought Pete did.

 

DOWD HAD EVIDENCE PETE BET AGAINST REDS

IMO, baseball wants everyone to believe that Pete didn't bet against the Reds and may have thrown games(leaving a pitcher in too long, not playing best lineups).  

Then prove he bet against his own team. If you can't then screw it. 

[Strike 4,510]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

Then prove he bet against his own team. If you can't then screw it. 

That's not needed.  He entered into an agreement with major league baseball.  They just need to honor that agreement.

[thegeneral 2,232]

5 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Then prove he bet against his own team. If you can't then screw it. 

What about Reds games he didn’t bet on? Why didn’t he bet on those? Did he save players for games? Did he tell others info about his team? When he gets in the hole bigly what happened?

It’s cut and dry because of things like this.