listen2me 23 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said: Because they're scared. QB's don't mean as much as they used to. Back in the day, the game was all about defense, and having a great QB was the separator. Everyone needed one, but there were only a small handful. Today, there's literally more starting caliber QB's than job openings. Instead of building the OLine and DLine and building the trenches, teams are spending the bulk of their money on 1 guy, hoping that dude can make up for the defeciencies of the rest of the team. Offensive wins games, defense wins championships. If a GM can build a consistent 9 to 10, maybe 11 win team, but never win in the playoffs, he'll keep his job for years. He'd rather be safe than sorry. He'll get the fan sentiment on his side by re-upping their QB and convince them that he is a "Franchise QB". The GM will always keep his job, but they'll just keep replacing coaches, because it's the coaches fault they can't win with the GM's "Franchise QB". What do people think about WRs then? Apparently people think they win championships. Maybe no positions matter then? Just get lucky with a retreat qb and hope your defense gels into last years seahawks I guess. Quote
Fnord Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, listen2me 23 said: What do people think about WRs then? Apparently people think they win championships. Maybe no positions matter then? Just get lucky with a retreat qb and hope your defense gels into last years seahawks I guess. I have yet to understand why WRs are suddenly so highly paid. I know it's a pass-first league. But we're talking about players that, unless they're excellent blockers, will only directly impact at most 20-25% of an offense's plays. 1 Quote
edjr Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, listen2me 23 said: You are comparing a pass rusher to a qb. First mistake. No one says they are as important. You are comparing the Cowboys and Browns situations to Bills and Chiefs. 2 teams (generally) compete year in and year out. The other 2 dont. Browns downright awful. Getting pressure on the QB without a blitz matters a ton. If you want to know who matters just look at the going rate for positions. I will say some top defenses get after the QB with scheme/a group of quality players. So you dont need 1 guy who is elite but it certainly changes how offenses play you. You can pick on the Packers I dont care. Power rankings are dumb. But they were towards the top if not 1 a lot of the year. Everyone got hurt they tanked towards thr end. Parsons was as good as advertised. garret was as advertised for the browns too Quote
Hardcore troubadour Posted June 2 Author Posted June 2 4 hours ago, edjr said: if sacks mattered so much, why did dallas and cleveland trade the best 2 in the league? you dont see teams trading allen, maholmes etc… I bet the Patriots wish they sacked Eli on the helmet catch. Quote
edjr Posted June 2 Posted June 2 49 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said: I bet the Patriots wish they sacked Eli on the helmet catch. I bet the yankees wished mariano rivera didn’t choke in 2004 Quote
Hardcore troubadour Posted June 2 Author Posted June 2 4 minutes ago, edjr said: I bet the yankees wished mariano rivera didn’t choke in 2004 I do. 18 and No! Made up for it though. That was wicked cool. Quote
listen2me 23 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, edjr said: garret was as advertised for the browns too No one said a pass rusher wins you thr championship. Rams are pretty damn good. Now add thr best pass rusher in the league. Yeah it may help create a super team. Its a lot about health come end of the year. But Rams with Myles Garrett is fairly scary at least until Stafford hits a wall or leaves. Quote
listen2me 23 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 2 hours ago, Fnord said: I have yet to understand why WRs are suddenly so highly paid. I know it's a pass-first league. But we're talking about players that, unless they're excellent blockers, will only directly impact at most 20-25% of an offense's plays. Game changers but fantasy football has people overrating them. Was JSN great? Sure. But they had he and DK year before. They unload DK and they win it all. RB was SB mvp. Defense played lights out. So JSN? Great WR but ok they had a bunch else going for them. Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase dont even make playoffs. League has changed but off the top of my head WR to not win a SB Cris Carter, TO, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitz......Jamar Chase, Justin Jefferson, Mike Evans...so.many other elite ones....I get if a WR is with a bad QB its moot mostly. But was also told by TB that QB doesnt matter as much. TB is downplaying QB a bunch because thats the in thing once there is any success with retreads. Quote
listen2me 23 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 Oh randy moss none. Lol So many elite wrs without one. Its dependent as is each position but it is more than most. If your qb is blah there is no chance even if they force feed you 10 targets it doesnt win games. Jordy Nelson has 1. Ay oh for the white guys! Quote
listen2me 23 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 Teams lately that win SBs have a defense. KC has a timley defense with a good DC and Mahomes. Philly had a complete roster and their defense trashed mahomes. Seattle's defense was undeniable even if their offense was fine. Thats ths theme. But what you do in week 3 means nothing. You have to have a run late and be sort of healthy. Or else offense has to will their way. But majority of time these defenses are playing with hair on fire. Quote
Maximum Overkill Posted June 2 Posted June 2 4 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said: But what you do in week 3 means nothing Does it thought? That one loss in week 3 could be the reason you either didn't make the playoffs, lost your division or missed out on a home playoff game, etc. Football is a different animal, all the games matter. Quote
listen2me 23 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 3 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said: Does it thought? That one loss in week 3 could be the reason you either didn't make the playoffs, lost your division or missed out on a home playoff game, etc. Football is a different animal, all the games matter. If you were fighting for a 7th seed you probably arent that great. We grant 7 a side now! It matters. But with any sport if you are playing good ball and decently healthy come end of thr year that matters much more. Teams go on runs. Was seattle going to miss playoffs if they lost one more game early? Were the Pats? No. To win a SB you need to be humming come end of the year. Some teams are tired. Some are hurt. Some teams get stronger. It absolutely matters most how you are playing in December. How healthy you are. Quote
listen2me 23 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 No team plays awesome for 5 months. If you are peaking late that matters. Quote
edjr Posted June 3 Posted June 3 1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said: I do. 18 and No! Made up for it though. That was wicked cool. no it didn’t, nice try, Quote
Hardcore troubadour Posted June 3 Author Posted June 3 1 hour ago, edjr said: no it didn’t, nice try, Let’s call it even? Quote
TBayXXXVII Posted June 3 Posted June 3 18 hours ago, Maximum Overkill said: It's been a minute since Roseman missed. And these were pretty much later 1st round picks. 2026: Makai Lemon, WR, USC (Pick 20) 2025: Jihaad Campbell, LB, Alabama (Drafted in the first round) 2024: Quinyon Mitchell, CB, Toledo (Pick 22) 2023: Jalen Carter, DT, Georgia (Pick 9) & Nolan Smith, EDGE, Georgia (Pick 30) 2022: Jordan Davis, DT, Georgia (Pick Which is why I said earlier, that most teams play it safe while Roseman doesn't give a crap. He goes out and gets his guy... risks or no. Quote
Maximum Overkill Posted June 3 Posted June 3 Just now, TBayXXXVII said: Which is why I said earlier, that most teams play it safe while Roseman doesn't give a crap. He goes out and gets his guy... risks or no. You're right. His philosophy is always take the best available player regardless of position. If it was a kicker he'd take a kicker. He doesn't give a flying shitt. Quote
TBayXXXVII Posted June 3 Posted June 3 17 hours ago, listen2me 23 said: What do people think about WRs then? Apparently people think they win championships. Maybe no positions matter then? Just get lucky with a retreat qb and hope your defense gels into last years seahawks I guess. You need a great offensive line, first and foremost. After that, you need a great defensive line. If you have those two in place any QB worth his salt, can sit in a clean pocket and complete passes all over the field to "decent" caliber WR's. The thing is, the greatest majority of teams do not have a great OLine and/or DLine, so they need better WR's. Quote
TBayXXXVII Posted June 3 Posted June 3 16 hours ago, Fnord said: I have yet to understand why WRs are suddenly so highly paid. I know it's a pass-first league. But we're talking about players that, unless they're excellent blockers, will only directly impact at most 20-25% of an offense's plays. I agree. It's a byproduct of what I talk about when I say teams spend too much money on "meh" QB's. There's almost never more than 1 or 2, true elite QB's in the league at one time. But, what teams do (and the fans are stupid enough to believe it), is that they over pay their "decent" QB and tell everyone that their QB is a "Franchise QB". If they just paid these guys a little less money and built up their OLine and DLine, they'd be a lot further ahead. Now, obviously, all 32 teams can't have a great OLine. What those teams should do is be clever enough to be run offenses out of 12 and 21 personnel to force the defense to play out of sync to give your QB more time. Decent WR's (see Jauan Jennings), can get open and catch passes and put up solid numbers. Quote
listen2me 23 Posted June 3 Posted June 3 10 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said: You need a great offensive line, first and foremost. After that, you need a great defensive line. If you have those two in place any QB worth his salt, can sit in a clean pocket and complete passes all over the field to "decent" caliber WR's. The thing is, the greatest majority of teams do not have a great OLine and/or DLine, so they need better WR's. Im with you on OL DL. I dont agree that put so and so behind a good OL and they will be a good enough QB. Certainly helps. But those arent positions. Say you have a stud LT. What does that mean if there are 2 OL on right sode that you can pick on? So question still is what position matters? None? OL isnt a position when you say you need a good OL. Plenty of bad OLs with 1 stud. Quote
listen2me 23 Posted June 3 Posted June 3 By googling a couple sources the Seahawks had a mid OL. Like I said before peaking late, being relatively healthy late is what matters for teams to go on a run. Stud QB is only spot that can drag a team without that. Plenty of ways to skin a cat. But just seems like you are saying no position matters that much. Need a good overall team. Thats fair. Good overall team with Mahomes vs a good overall team with insert mid QB....there is a difference there. So QB does matter a ton. Quote
Kopy Posted June 4 Posted June 4 11 hours ago, listen2me 23 said: By googling a couple sources the Seahawks had a mid OL. Like I said before peaking late, being relatively healthy late is what matters for teams to go on a run. Stud QB is only spot that can drag a team without that. Plenty of ways to skin a cat. But just seems like you are saying no position matters that much. Need a good overall team. Thats fair. Good overall team with Mahomes vs a good overall team with insert mid QB....there is a difference there. So QB does matter a ton. LT, LG, C, RT are all very good. RG really brings down the grade. It looks like we might've fixed that in the draft, but we'll see. Quote
TBayXXXVII Posted June 4 Posted June 4 13 hours ago, listen2me 23 said: Im with you on OL DL. I dont agree that put so and so behind a good OL and they will be a good enough QB. Certainly helps. But those arent positions. Say you have a stud LT. What does that mean if there are 2 OL on right sode that you can pick on? So question still is what position matters? None? OL isnt a position when you say you need a good OL. Plenty of bad OLs with 1 stud. When I say the OL and DL, I think it's obvious that I mean, LT, LG, C, RG, RT and DT & DE. No? You need a great OLine and DLine. It means the whole unit. However you need to get it done, do it. Look at the Eagles for proof. Mediocre QB and they've been to 2 SB's and won 1 of them. Why? Great OLine and DLine. You have to build the units as a whole. Get to the QB and prevent them from getting to your QB. It really is that simple (of a plan). They just need to execute it. Not saying it's easy, but it's easier if you're not over paying certain positions because you're scared to lose that player. Quote
TBayXXXVII Posted June 4 Posted June 4 13 hours ago, listen2me 23 said: By googling a couple sources the Seahawks had a mid OL. Like I said before peaking late, being relatively healthy late is what matters for teams to go on a run. Stud QB is only spot that can drag a team without that. Plenty of ways to skin a cat. But just seems like you are saying no position matters that much. Need a good overall team. Thats fair. Good overall team with Mahomes vs a good overall team with insert mid QB....there is a difference there. So QB does matter a ton. They were a top third OLine overall... and had the #1 defense. It's why they won with a mediocre QB. Two years ago, the Eagles had a top tier OLine and great defense. It's why they won with a mediocre QB. Having Barkley clearly helped, but they made it to the super bowl with the same formula before getting Barkley. Having the right system in place for your talent is key as well. Seattle ran the right system for a mediocre QB, to maximize their potential. Look at Tampa in 2024. Tampa had a good OLine and had a top 3 offense with Baker Mayfield under Liam Coen. Look at the year before and after, without Coen. "Meh". Systems are more important than certain players as well. Honestly, Joe Montana is probably a "good" quality QB, had he not been under Bill Walsh, and not recognized as the GOAT (pre-Tom Brady). Quote
Fnord Posted June 4 Posted June 4 The game is won in the trenches. OL and DL are the position groups that most affect winning. I'd argue that having a great DL is the single most important factor in winning a title, possibly even more than QB. Without further research and using my unreliable memory, the last team I can think of that won a SB without a great to dominant DL may have been the Pats. But their defensive units were always good, and they had arguably the best QB ever, so that's a pretty big mitigating factor. Quote
edjr Posted June 5 Posted June 5 18 hours ago, Fnord said: The game is won in the trenches. OL and DL are the position groups that most affect winning. I'd argue that having a great DL is the single most important factor in winning a title, possibly even more than QB. Without further research and using my unreliable memory, the last team I can think of that won a SB without a great to dominant DL may have been the Pats. But their defensive units were always good, and they had arguably the best QB ever, so that's a pretty big mitigating factor. arguably Quote
Fnord Posted June 5 Posted June 5 5 hours ago, edjr said: arguably Yeah, arguably. Having the best stats of all time doesn't automatically qualify a player as the GOAT. Emmitt Smith is the all time leading rusher. Was he really BETTER than Barry Sanders, Marshall Faulk, Adrian Peterson? Or was he just able to put up better stats by virtue of longevity and the good fortune of playing on a stacked team for most of his career? Drop your pearls and unbunch your panties. I'm not saying Brady ISN'T the GOAT QB. He probably is. I'm just saying it can be argued. Quote
edjr Posted June 5 Posted June 5 45 minutes ago, Fnord said: Yeah, arguably. Having the best stats of all time doesn't automatically qualify a player as the GOAT. Emmitt Smith is the all time leading rusher. Was he really BETTER than Barry Sanders, Marshall Faulk, Adrian Peterson? Or was he just able to put up better stats by virtue of longevity and the good fortune of playing on a stacked team for most of his career? Drop your pearls and unbunch your panties. I'm not saying Brady ISN'T the GOAT QB. He probably is. I'm just saying it can be argued. Emmitt Smiff? You'd be a terrible laywer Once TB12 won a SB with Tampa Bay, TB12 being GOAT cannot be argued intelligently by anyone. Quote
Fnord Posted June 5 Posted June 5 2 hours ago, edjr said: Emmitt Smiff? You'd be a terrible laywer Once TB12 won a SB with Tampa Bay, TB12 being GOAT cannot be argued intelligently by anyone. OK. Certainly there's no bias in your opinion, right Pats fan? You are probably right about the lawyer thing, though. Quote
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