BuckSwope

Ah, that's a little different. Thanks for the clarification.

You didn't ask me, but what do you mean when you use that term and are you asking if he believes it exists in 2023?

That is what my opinion is, correct. We seem to agree on the policies in action and their negative consequences, but not the order. I agree we saw the communities start to prosper until about the 80s then it started to suffer. I don't think black communities decided they didn't care about the family, broke up and took up a life of crime. I think policies you describe - most notably decent jobs leaving and war on drugs kicked in which caused a spike in things like incarceration rates and black men dying. It's really hard to have a two parent house when one is in jail or dead. Then add in welfare incentives that we talked about, which also drive single parent numbers up. Etc, etc. I go back all these things we talk about are problems in poor communities in general. I talked about my white trash family, and I know many of us know those people as well - uneducated, on welfare and drugs, multiple dads for kids, etc. It's not a phenomenon exclusive to AAs, it's more just more likely to be in that community because they are in poverty and are undereducated at a much higher %.

Ah, there's our 2nd point of disagreement. That makes more sense now, thanks. I think the broken homes are a symptom of the problems plaguing poor communities in general. I used forced a little tongue in cheek. What I think will largely happen in a community that is poor and mostly in the drug trade when you give them more money to stay at home first is that it will bring more of that culture into the house. Do we simply just want 2 parents, or do we want 2 educated parents with jobs and decent prospects. IMO the 2nd part of that equation should come first.

On these boards, that's a huge win. I don't care that I disagree with people on things, that's cool. My biggest annoyance is people not taking the time to understand and talk through other positions or assuming what my position is.

I love the idea in principle. My main two concerns would be: 1. without changing war on drugs + incarcaration/death rates that stem from that, I am not sure how much that incentive will help. 2. I could foresee some negative consequences of this - namely "forcing" parents that shouldn't be together in the house together for $. Goes back to my point that 2 parents doens't automatically mean loving, caring, successful. I'd guess the positives outweigh the negatives here, just thinking out loud.

OK, then this is where our disagreement is. I largely don't see any concrete policies or solutions to this issue. I mostly see what I was pushing back thinking your position was - the blacks need to fix their culture. Period, that's the solution. I think the right is perfectly happy to let this continue, not because of racist reasons, but because of profit reasons. It's financially advantageous for both sides to keep this status quo going - as I pointed out, profits and wealth gap have never been better, why change? Politically, it's advantageous to point the finger at Dems and not offer much else besides the above. I see one side pushing solutions, but many of them ungood. I see the other side offering no solutions I think address the causes we discussed. To me the biggest causes are war on drugs, schools, jobs/opportunities in the poor communities. I don't see the right tackling those things or offering solutions as you claim.

There are many cases where they aren't allowed to be back in the household - ex cons for example. There are some things that need to be teased out of the simple "single mom black household" stats. Much higher rates of death and incarceration mixed with welfare incentives and things like I just mentioned. But the narrative quickly turns into their community wanting and celebrating this as a whole.

Ok, we are more in agreement then. Do you agree that the AND part is largely missing from the right side of the aisle and around these parts? We might just agree on the order we need to do those things. My worldview leans more environment vs. actions so if I had to start it would be on the fixing those issues less on the telling them to get dads in the house. Also, I have seen some interesting stats about Dad involvement in the racial communities, and they have been surprising. Things like average time spent with kids reading and other things. It's not like black dads don't want to be involved any less. As you say there are policies in place to limit them being under the same roof.

Dude, we agree on the stats. I understand all those points perfectly well. I know the stats on fathers in the black communities. But, yet again - you just listed reasons for this: welfare incentives, war on drugs and high incarcaration rates, etc. These are the CAUSES of that family unit to decay, so why in the world are we just telling them to fix their family unit without talking about and fixing those causes? It's also not exclusive to the black community - you see similar issues and stats in other poor communities hit with drugs, lack of education, and lack of jobs and options. Black communities were just hit harder for reasons we discussed. I feel the right just say "blacks need to fix their culture, problem solved" when: 1. it's not just affecting them, and 2. that doesn't address the causes of the erosion of the culture.

Ok, but it's that a government and policy issue, not a black culture issue? Again you seem to be telling me we got here because of Democratic policies in the country, which slowed progress for blacks and eroded their thriving culture, but the solution is for blacks to fix their culture? That's where I said the right loses me. For this conversation I will even let you blame it all on Dems (though you will have a hard time convincing me that something like the war on drugs isn't coming from both sides and they are both perfectly happy continuing that). I feel like what you and others are saying is that the AA culture is crap BECAUSE of things like wellfare, no jobs, war on drugs, etc... But the solution is for them, and only them, to fix their culture. I truly don't get that line of reasoning .

First, you didn't answer my question. Second, it still seems like you are listing outside forces and government actions that changed their community(culture), but then are saying the answer is to fix the culture. If I tell you that A, B, and C led to D which is a negative outcome, it makes no sense for me to say the solution is to start with D and fix it.

See, it feels we agree, then you keep hammering on this. No, we are not IMO. We just listed concrete reasons for most of these issues - war on drugs, welfare policies, no jobs. Throw in poor schools and other things. Correct me if I am misinterpreting your post, but after the last 2 parts what I take your meaning to be is that in the dark end of the color spectrum, there are other "cultures" that are succeeding, so why can't the AA community? I will wait for that one before going on, because this is 100% where the right loses me if that's what you are saying.

One thing that stood out to me was that even during this financial gain for the black community the bolded was true. I think that is an important thing to keep in mind, that even when we point to them making gains they were still things in the way and they were making a fraction of whites and if I remember right, the wealth gap was still not improving as much as the wages were. Also not including in the info above during those years of wage increase were factors like redlining. That said, we largely agree here. Things like: factory jobs leaving, war on drugs, and wellfare policies have really decimated these communities. BUT, again - that is true for poor white communities too. We see jobs drying up, meth and other drugs spiking, and similar conditions coming into play. It's not a black problem, it's a USA problem. Telling blacks to fix their culture (not you, the overall sentiment I get from the right on the issue) address 0 of these things that we seem to agree have decimated communities. So this all boils down to what I think is more accurately happening - the 1% vs the rest of us, not R vs D. Where are the incentives for either side to change when their profits are still rolling in bigly and they are on the correct side of the wealth gap?

Hmm. Doesn't that fly in the face of stats and education of voters and how they vote?

Can you please expand on what time frame you are talking about with the bolded and what specific policies you are talking about that halted it? Also, do you not agree that largely what comes from the right is "fix it yourself"? I rarely read or hear specific ideas on what they would do or take away, just "fix your culture".

Dopes like Jon eat it up though, so it works. It's all ok if you save a few kids. Do we even have an accurate # on how many of these kids he actually helped after these "rescues". He claims 7000.

HERE are the court documents they speak of in the article, if your snowflake eyes aren't able to read something a lib on Twitter or Vice said. Or you can just keep pretending we are talking about too much fiction in a fiction movie.

Sure. You posted that in the other thread when somebody "imagined" what Boebert was saying or doing with her hand in the groin region. Yet you post near daily about dudes in glory holes sucking each other off. I find the frequency that you bring up dudes in glory to be weird and creepy and found the above post funny because you post such things. Again, was his fantasy too straight for you, or what?

"start" playing politics?

So he can say he was right all along?

I never said it wasn't popular. It is. My son basically only listens to rap and I talk to him about it as well. My point is that like other things I've seen listed as negative black culture, IMO we can find in "our" culture too. But that is never talked about, just the rap music. I think it's a largely silly talking point, usually delivered by crusty old white dudes . Like I said, I am sure you can find examples. I am not familiar with Elder and his views, but will take a peek. It can't be surprising that there is a wide range of opinions from the black community. I was listening to a pod and John McWhorter was on railing on Ibram X. Kendi and his views. I read both book and they are polar ends of the race and woke issue, for example. You can't pretend that that is a unified sentiment in the black community. IMO you are either seeking out or getting fed one side of that spectrum (and IMO the crazy wrong side). Of course, but you can't force that like I said. Mostly I just read and hear - you gotta have 2 parents, and that is THE answer. Like I said, too simplistic.

Yeah, I think you went too far here. IMO it largely goes back to that conversative outlook of "I did it, why can't you" I brought up the other day. If hard work and dedication works, then these people are just largely choosing not to do that, so fock 'em. That's more the sentiment I get. For starters, that ignores the large number that did in fact get out of that cycle of those communities and succeed with hard work and dedication. More importantly it also ignores odds and numbers. To me it's common sense to say that it's easier to do that when you are middle class or above, have decent schools, have access to options and jobs vs. the conditions many of these communities are in. So if you have a population like the AA community who are way more likely to be in poverty (by a factor of 2-3x), I think it's asinine to expect the same %s of being successful in life as other communities. Just look at our nation's capital - 5% poverty rate in whites, 28% blacks. I scanned the states for 2023 stats, and didn't see one where it wasn't at least 2x difference in the races.

I do get a whiff of that as well on these boards from time to time.

I answered the others above, and of course I think you are being a bit hyperbolic about this too. There are always kooks out there and I know you hate the Ds, but I don't get that sentiment and I interact with more Ls and Rs IRL. Most talk and think like I do. Even when I interact with people talking about systemic racism, it's not that that sentiment - it's about removing barriers so people can be successful, not that a master race is keeping the brother man down and they will never get ahead. That's what right wing media feeds you all.