The Real timschochet

Most conspiracies aren’t real. I keep trying to tell you guys that.

Good analysis from The Bulwark: https://www.thebulwark.com/p/trump-vance-zelensky-oval-office-shameful-appalling-spectacle I’ve been reading the circle jerk in this thread this morning and even for this forum it’s hard to stomach. Trump was a total embarrassment yesterday and you guys are slobbering on his knob like he’s some kind of hero. It’s really sad.

Losing for Trump. And the US will not be done with Ukraine one way or another. And you’ll continue to pay. Get used to it.

Nope. We’re going to continue to support Ukraine and it’s coming out of your tax dollars. Too bad, so sad.

You can’t agree with this and with @Mark Davis’s take as well. They contradict each other.

I generally agree with this. Though I don’t think Zelensky will apologize, they will ultimately get together IMO and work out some sort of deal.

You’re right but not for the reason you think. Lakers are playing.

The date of the Cato article is 2021. That’s prior to the invasion. I don’t think it’s relevant to the situation after the invasion.

I’ll read all of it. Cato is a source I trust.

No I don’t want transparency in conversations between world leaders. I don’t think it’s a good or useful thing. I would prefer to learn about it afterwards.

I don’t know that to be true. In the past I’ve never been a fan of Ukraine. Too much anti-Semitic history for me and a very corrupt state. But I like Zelensky, I like what I’ve heard from him (long before today.) I think most of the authoritarian stuff is coming from Russian propaganda and I don’t believe it. I think he personally is a good guy and honest. I’ve seen nothing to contradict that.

I keep forgetting who I’m responding to. Damn you’re such a moron. Go back to rooting for people to die in fires.

He would not agree to a ceasefire without assurances of security and Russia agreed to withdraw from Ukraine. . How is that disrespectful? Why would he publicly agree to a ceasefire? If part of the USA was occupied by a foreign invader, would we ever agree to a ceasefire without the invader first withdrawing?

No there are rare earth minerals that we don’t have and China does. And that’s the competition: us and China. That’s the big picture. I think even Trump gets this although apparently you don’t.

Right. But I also think that the doom and gloom coming from the Democrats and MSNBC are wrong too. They say this isn’t fixable. I think it is, and I think in a few days Trump will talk to Zelensky again and it will be like none of this ever happened. I’m a lifelong Lakers fan. About 20 years ago there were these feuds between Shaq, Kobe Bryant, and Phil Jackson. They would each tell the Los Angeles Times completely unforgivable things about the others and you’d think, OK the team just blew up, they can’t possibly play together anymore. And then they’d go out and pretend none of it ever happened and they won 3 championships in a row all the while pointing fingers at each other (still the last team ever to do that.) All this is is just talk, it means nothing.

I really have to challenge this. Trump says the same thing all the time, but I don’t see any evidence of it, certainly not from Zelensky. His only disagreement with Trump was about who started the war. How exactly was he being disrespectful. As always, for much of the press conference Trump told lie after lie after lie. (For example the tired lie that we’ve given 380 billion to Ukraine and received nothing back.) Zelensky could have interrupted him several times and said that’s just not true. He didn’t. Out of politeness he kept his mouth shut for the most part, disagreeing only when Trump argued that we should trust Putin. And he wasn’t rude or disrespectful about it.

Not really. Is our support for Ukraine supposed to be predicated on whether he wears a suit or thanks Trump enough? That’s really childish don’t you think? Our support, as always, should be based solely on whether in its our best interests to support them. I think we can all at least agree on that basic idea. I say it still is, though I expect many of you to disagree with me. The minerals deal is still on the table and we need it. I have an optimistic feeling we’ll get it done, because in the end Zelensky needs our support as well.

Ukraine was invaded by a country led by an evil man. Russia is completely responsible and has murdered thousands of innocent people. Of course I will continue to root for Ukraine and Zelensky. I firmly believe they are the good guys in this struggle.

The difference is it wasn’t in public.

I came away with a completely different assessment. I thought that Zelensky stayed civil and polite all throughout, that Vance tried to provoke him, and that Trump behaved like a whiny a$$hole and bully. To be completely fair, just like you I come in with preconceptions. You are a fan of Donald Trump, you think he’s a great President, and you agree with his isolationist, transactional, and “America First” viewpoint. (I trust I’m not putting any words in your mouth; you’ve written as much on several occasions.) On the other hand, I detest Donald Trump, think he’s a terrible President, and strongly disagree with his isolationist viewpoint. That being said, it still should be possible for us to watch the same 40 minutes of television and come away with a similar opinion. But apparently it isn’t. So that begs the question: are either of us, it both of us, so emotionally invested in “our side” being right that we are incapable of looking at this objectively? Of course I believe I’m right and you’re wrong, but I also sense that what you wrote is your honest opinion and not contrived. So I’m open to the possibility that my need to be right affects my objective ability to perceive facts more than I thought. This may be true in your case as well.

Regarding the impeachment and Ukraine demanding Zelensky apologize, etc: I would guess he has the overwhelming support of Ukraine after today. Maybe in the 90% or higher range. Unlike our President.

Showing your ignorance again

Petain did. Thats why he was a traitor.

I don’t recall Canada’s leader ever meeting with Hitler. Petain and Mussolini were more than weak they were servile cringing cowards and traitors. Petain was tried by the French people and sentenced to death (DeGaulle commuted it.) Mussolini was executed for treason. So yeah.

FDR talked to both Churchill and Stalin. Look Putin is evil. Trump is going along with evil. And it’s not in our interests. You seem like a reasonable person. I don’t understand why you’re defending this.