The Real timschochet

The date of the Cato article is 2021. That’s prior to the invasion. I don’t think it’s relevant to the situation after the invasion.

I’ll read all of it. Cato is a source I trust.

No I don’t want transparency in conversations between world leaders. I don’t think it’s a good or useful thing. I would prefer to learn about it afterwards.

I don’t know that to be true. In the past I’ve never been a fan of Ukraine. Too much anti-Semitic history for me and a very corrupt state. But I like Zelensky, I like what I’ve heard from him (long before today.) I think most of the authoritarian stuff is coming from Russian propaganda and I don’t believe it. I think he personally is a good guy and honest. I’ve seen nothing to contradict that.

I keep forgetting who I’m responding to. Damn you’re such a moron. Go back to rooting for people to die in fires.

He would not agree to a ceasefire without assurances of security and Russia agreed to withdraw from Ukraine. . How is that disrespectful? Why would he publicly agree to a ceasefire? If part of the USA was occupied by a foreign invader, would we ever agree to a ceasefire without the invader first withdrawing?

No there are rare earth minerals that we don’t have and China does. And that’s the competition: us and China. That’s the big picture. I think even Trump gets this although apparently you don’t.

Right. But I also think that the doom and gloom coming from the Democrats and MSNBC are wrong too. They say this isn’t fixable. I think it is, and I think in a few days Trump will talk to Zelensky again and it will be like none of this ever happened. I’m a lifelong Lakers fan. About 20 years ago there were these feuds between Shaq, Kobe Bryant, and Phil Jackson. They would each tell the Los Angeles Times completely unforgivable things about the others and you’d think, OK the team just blew up, they can’t possibly play together anymore. And then they’d go out and pretend none of it ever happened and they won 3 championships in a row all the while pointing fingers at each other (still the last team ever to do that.) All this is is just talk, it means nothing.

I really have to challenge this. Trump says the same thing all the time, but I don’t see any evidence of it, certainly not from Zelensky. His only disagreement with Trump was about who started the war. How exactly was he being disrespectful. As always, for much of the press conference Trump told lie after lie after lie. (For example the tired lie that we’ve given 380 billion to Ukraine and received nothing back.) Zelensky could have interrupted him several times and said that’s just not true. He didn’t. Out of politeness he kept his mouth shut for the most part, disagreeing only when Trump argued that we should trust Putin. And he wasn’t rude or disrespectful about it.

Not really. Is our support for Ukraine supposed to be predicated on whether he wears a suit or thanks Trump enough? That’s really childish don’t you think? Our support, as always, should be based solely on whether in its our best interests to support them. I think we can all at least agree on that basic idea. I say it still is, though I expect many of you to disagree with me. The minerals deal is still on the table and we need it. I have an optimistic feeling we’ll get it done, because in the end Zelensky needs our support as well.

Ukraine was invaded by a country led by an evil man. Russia is completely responsible and has murdered thousands of innocent people. Of course I will continue to root for Ukraine and Zelensky. I firmly believe they are the good guys in this struggle.

The difference is it wasn’t in public.

I came away with a completely different assessment. I thought that Zelensky stayed civil and polite all throughout, that Vance tried to provoke him, and that Trump behaved like a whiny a$$hole and bully. To be completely fair, just like you I come in with preconceptions. You are a fan of Donald Trump, you think he’s a great President, and you agree with his isolationist, transactional, and “America First” viewpoint. (I trust I’m not putting any words in your mouth; you’ve written as much on several occasions.) On the other hand, I detest Donald Trump, think he’s a terrible President, and strongly disagree with his isolationist viewpoint. That being said, it still should be possible for us to watch the same 40 minutes of television and come away with a similar opinion. But apparently it isn’t. So that begs the question: are either of us, it both of us, so emotionally invested in “our side” being right that we are incapable of looking at this objectively? Of course I believe I’m right and you’re wrong, but I also sense that what you wrote is your honest opinion and not contrived. So I’m open to the possibility that my need to be right affects my objective ability to perceive facts more than I thought. This may be true in your case as well.

Regarding the impeachment and Ukraine demanding Zelensky apologize, etc: I would guess he has the overwhelming support of Ukraine after today. Maybe in the 90% or higher range. Unlike our President.

Showing your ignorance again

Petain did. Thats why he was a traitor.

I don’t recall Canada’s leader ever meeting with Hitler. Petain and Mussolini were more than weak they were servile cringing cowards and traitors. Petain was tried by the French people and sentenced to death (DeGaulle commuted it.) Mussolini was executed for treason. So yeah.

FDR talked to both Churchill and Stalin. Look Putin is evil. Trump is going along with evil. And it’s not in our interests. You seem like a reasonable person. I don’t understand why you’re defending this.

You’re just so awful. Sometimes I don’t have to form a position on any given issue in this forum; I just wait to find out what you think and I know that the exact opposite view is the non-dickish one.

No it isn’t. It’s not a meeting. Chamberlain met with Hitler, because Chamberlain was weak like Trump.

FDR never talked to Hitler either

A couple of thoughts: 1. After some reflection, I wouldn’t make too much of this one way or the other. One of the things about Donald Trump that we should have learned over the years is that nothing is permanent. He can come back tomorrow and praise Zelensky. Or he can cut off all support. Or he can cut off all support for a few days or weeks or months and then resume it. So I wouldn’t make any assumptions, which several you have done. Nothing is set in stone. 2. The Republicans in the House and Senate have, as usual, behaved especially cowardly today. I’m not talking about the MAGA folk's or the isolationists; at least they’ve been consistent in not supporting Ukraine. I’m referring to all those Republicans who have until today expressed their support for Zelensky and Ukraine and are now doing a 180 turn in support of their leader. Shame.

“They respect me!” Such a whiny little man.

Mine. This is an embarrassment for the USA, a disaster for the world and a victory for Putin. Sad to see.

On Meet the Press this morning, Bernie Sanders insisted that the main reason Democrats lost is that they abandoned the working class and that begins with raising the minimum wage. He has made this argument before (his entire career in fact.) But- you can’t raise the minimum wage without also raising prices and the cost of living. This also goes to the heart of the undocumented immigrant dilemma- they’re paid less than minimum wage which keeps our prices lower. Get rid of them, or replace them with people making minimum wage, and you raise the cost of living. And if we do what Bernie wants and raise wages on those here legally, aren’t we simply increasing demand for more people to come here illegally? Would our society be better off without any minimum wage? How would that work?